Where Do You Think Teresa Halbach was Killed?

[Karinna]

Interesting. So who was it that “studied the body” to be able to determine how she was killed?

Oh, wait......there was no body. Maybe you are talking about another case?

Are you mistaken on your details about this case or are you making this stuff up for other reasons?

Exactly, i think it helps to get the facts right in this case. I know some of you know a lot more than i do, and appreciate the info. from posters that have sleuthed this case properly. All IMO.

 

[ACJL]

Interesting. So who was it that “studied the body” to be able to determine how she was killed?

Oh, wait......there was no body. Maybe you are talking about another case?

Are you mistaken on your details about this case or are you making this stuff up for other reasons?

Everything I said can be found in the case files. I suggest you read those before implying stuff. I'm sure you know I meant "cremains" which was the word I also used earlier in my post. Eisenberg among others examined those. Some pieces were large enough to conduct research on. The ilium was so intact that it could still be recognized as such bone. Same with the skull fragments. Eisenberg examined those and found entrance defects and no exit defects. There could not have been exit defects anyway, because a .22 doesn't have the shotpower to fire a bullet through a skull.

Exactly, i think it helps to get the facts right in this case. I know some of you know a lot more than i do, and appreciate the info. from posters that have sleuthed this case properly. All IMO.

Nothing but facts were stated. Look it up at Stevenaverycase.org if you don't believe what I say.

 

[Karinna]

Everything I said can be found in the case files. I suggest you read those before implying stuff. I'm sure you know I meant "cremains" which was the word I also used earlier in my post. Eisenberg among others examined those. Some pieces were large enough to conduct research on. The ilium was so intact that it could still be recognized as such bone. Same with the skull fragments. Eisenberg examined those and found entrance defects and no exit defects. There could not have been exit defects anyway, because a .22 doesn't have the shotpower to fire a bullet through a skull.



Nothing but facts were stated. Look it up at Stevenaverycase.org if you don't believe what I say.

(quote)
The bullet, which allegedly went through Ms. Halbach's skull, is devoid of any bone particles which would be present if the bullet had entered and exited her skull as the State claimed at Mr. Avery's trial.
Dr. Palenik did detect an abundance of wood on the bullet which makes Mr. Avery's allegation that Ms. Halbach's DNA was planted on the bullet beyond question and unrefuted.
(Supplemental Affidavit of Dr. Christopher Palenik, attached and incorporated herein as Exhibit B at 5)
https://www.scribd.com/document/362453363/Avery-Filed-Motion-10-23-17-Part-1-motion

 

[ACJL]

(quote)
if the bullet had entered and exited her skull as the State claimed at Mr. Avery's trial.

Yes, but those are Zellners allegations. Have you verified whether any of the prosecutions attorneys ever made such a claim? Because they haven't. Zellner was mistaken, or just playing tricks.

 

[proudfootz]

Everything I said can be found in the case files. I suggest you read those before implying stuff. I'm sure you know I meant "cremains" which was the word I also used earlier in my post. Eisenberg among others examined those. Some pieces were large enough to conduct research on. The ilium was so intact that it could still be recognized as such bone. Same with the skull fragments. Eisenberg examined those and found entrance defects and no exit defects. There could not have been exit defects anyway, because a .22 doesn't have the shotpower to fire a bullet through a skull.

Nothing but facts were stated. Look it up at Stevenaverycase.org if you don't believe what I say.

BBM

This ilium bone seems to have come from Radant's Quarry. That would seem to suggest the owner of that bone was burned in a secluded area where one could remain unobserved and the horrible stench of burning a body wouldn't be noticed by people dropping by unexectedly.

IIRC one expert with experience in cases where bodies have been consumed by fire testified in court that the quarry location was a better candidate for the actual location of the pyre with fragments being moved to the location where they were later 'found' by police.

Ever been to an open bonfire? The smoke gets in your clothes, in your hair, on your skin. Just imagine Barb coming home and smelling burnt human flesh on Brendan. Not something that happens every day - that would be remarkable at the time and memorable.

That scenario seems more realistic to me than Steven running all over the property tending fires while greeting guests and answering the phone calls all night.

ETA: It's been claimed Teresa was shot about a dozen times. Somehow none of the bullets turned up where her body was allegedly cremated. Did the lead just evaporate?

 

[ACJL]

BBM

This ilium bone seems to have come from Radant's Quarry. That would seem to suggest the owner of that bone was burned in a secluded area where one could remain unobserved and the horrible stench of burning a body wouldn't be noticed by people dropping by unexectedly.

Yet, the bones Dr. Bennett received came from tag 8318. All bones under this tag came from Avery's Auto Salvage property.

Eisenberg also made this exhibit of the bones from 8318, which were found at the auto salvage:

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...0-Graphic-Showing-Bones-Found-in-Burn-Pit.jpg

She marks the pelvis bone. During trial she said ilium and pelvis are one bone, or rather that ilium is part of the pelvis.

In other words, this bone was found at Avery's.

IIRC one expert with experience in cases where bodies have been consumed by fire testified in court that the quarry location was a better candidate for the actual location of the pyre with fragments being moved to the location where they were later 'found' by police.

U mean Fairgrieve, the Canadian? He said that the place with the most bones is the place where the bones were more likely to have been moved to. That's all I remember from him regarding the quarry site

Ever been to an open bonfire? The smoke gets in your clothes, in your hair, on your skin. Just imagine Barb coming home and smelling burnt human flesh on Brendan. Not something that happens every day - that would be remarkable at the time and memorable.

Didn't Brendan say he washed his clothes when he got home? Or at least his pants. Also, in that other topic I gave you a link that said the burning of a human does not have to smell like that. Zellner also agrees that TH was burned outside, but nowhere in Manitowoc was a smell like that reported.

That scenario seems more realistic to me than Steven running all over the property tending fires while greeting guests and answering the phone calls all night.

He had one phone call prior to the fire iirc, and one during the fire. He left Brendan with the fire while he talked on the phone with Jodi (inside his house iirc). That is the only time he was disturbed. He didn't run over the property either, as he only tended to the fire in the burnpit. He did not seem to have any other fires than that one (excluding the burn barrel fire, which probably didn't need much or any tending).

ETA: It's been claimed Teresa was shot about a dozen times. Somehow none of the bullets turned up where her body was allegedly cremated. Did the lead just evaporate?

Lead was embedded in her cremains.

 

[proudfootz]

Yet, the bones Dr. Bennett received came from tag 8318. All bones under this tag came from Avery's Auto Salvage property.

Eisenberg also made this exhibit of the bones from 8318, which were found at the auto salvage:

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...0-Graphic-Showing-Bones-Found-in-Burn-Pit.jpg

She marks the pelvis bone. During trial she said ilium and pelvis are one bone, or rather that ilium is part of the pelvis.

In other words, this bone was found at Avery's.

My mistake - I was thinking of Exhibit 402.

U mean Fairgrieve, the Canadian? He said that the place with the most bones is the place where the bones were more likely to have been moved to. That's all I remember from him regarding the quarry site

Yes, I believe it was Fairgreave who noted that the evidence in this case is consistent where cremains were moved from one location to another.

Didn't Brendan say he washed his clothes when he got home? Or at least his pants. Also, in that other topic I gave you a link that said the burning of a human does not have to smell like that. Zellner also agrees that TH was burned outside, but nowhere in Manitowoc was a smell like that reported.

Yes, I commented on your link in that thread.

I have no reason to suppose a body might have been burned outside. But based on the statements of multiple witnesses it would appear it wasn't burned at Steven's place on Monday night.

He had one phone call prior to the fire iirc, and one during the fire. He left Brendan with the fire while he talked on the phone with Jodi (inside his house iirc). That is the only time he was disturbed. He didn't run over the property either, as he only tended to the fire in the burnpit. He did not seem to have any other fires than that one (excluding the burn barrel fire, which probably didn't need much or any tending).

While that is an interesting story, it appears to me that with people coming and going all evening while this crime was allegedly being committed it would disturb Steven (assuming he was doing all he is accused of doing, and with his supposed anger issues, and allegedly with low impulse control, etc).

It is claimed that burned stuff was found in two separate burn barrels far distant from the bonfire location, plus the bones found about half a mile away.

Lead was embedded in her cremains.

Not eleven bullets worth. Not two bullets worth. AFAICT lead doesn't evaporate, even if the fire was hot enough to melt it.

All MOO

 

[Karinna]

Yes, but those are Zellners allegations. Have you verified whether any of the prosecutions attorneys ever made such a claim? Because they haven't. Zellner was mistaken, or just playing tricks.

They are Ms. Zellner's findings with her expert forensic team. KZ is a seasoned attorney with some 18/19 wrongful convictions overturned in the courts of the United States to exonerate her clients. IMO Ms. Zellner doesn't play tricks and has a career to prove it.

 

[ACJL]

They are Ms. Zellner's findings with her expert forensic team. KZ is a seasoned attorney with some 18/19 wrongful convictions overturned in the courts of the United States to exonerate her clients. IMO Ms. Zellner doesn't play tricks and has a career to prove it.

I'm not sure you understood me. My point was that Zellner said the State said the bullet fl went through TH's skull. But they never said something like that anywhere.

 

[CoolJ]

I'm not sure you understood me. My point was that Zellner said the State said the bullet fl went through TH's skull. But they never said something like that anywhere.

So ACJL, lets set the record straight here a little bit as you are so adamant that the states theory is legitimate.

What is it that you contend the state said with regards to that bullet?
I will also ask you you remind the readers here when that bullet was found.

How many times do you think TH was shot?
Where did all of the blood and DNA go that was on the inside of that garage? Remember, you have to correlate that with the amount of times you think she was shot. And you will also have to comment on whether or not you believe the investigators literally tore that garage apart looking for evidence that anybody was murdered in there.

Lets take this topic of where TH was killed, and really dig into it. Step by step. And lets see if the states theory actually makes any sense.

 

[Karinna]

Yes, but those are Zellners allegations. Have you verified whether any of the prosecutions attorneys ever made such a claim? Because they haven't. Zellner was mistaken, or just playing tricks.

They would of been the State's claims in regard to the evidence of the testing of the bullet as per their findings of DNA of TH's on the bullet.

 

[ACJL]

They would of been the State's claims in regard to the evidence of the testing of the bullet as per their findings of DNA of TH's on the bullet.

Which is why I asked if you verified whether they EVER made such a claim. The State never said such a thing, ever! Zellner is mistaken or playing tricks here.

 

[ACJL]

Yes, I believe it was Fairgreave who noted that the evidence in this case is consistent where cremains were moved from one location to another.

There are two things about this that, even when I was still an Avery supporter, made me have some doubts about his testimony.

First he said "the location with the most bones tends to be the location where the bones are moved to". Not always, but tends to. He thus never excluded the possibility they weren't moved.

Another thing is that Eisenberg said she had about 40% - 60% of TH's entire skeleton (and a piece of almost every bone in her body). With that 40% being mentioned, how helpful to the defense is this testimony, I always wondered.

While that is an interesting story, it appears to me that with people coming and going all evening while this crime was allegedly being committed it would disturb Steven (assuming he was doing all he is accused of doing, and with his supposed anger issues, and allegedly with low impulse control, etc).

He could've done most of it while everyone was at work y'know. You don't know when he did what. TH could've died after Bobby left and nobody would've noticed. Then all he had was a body to hide. Nobody ever came inside his trailer or garage that day, except Brendan.

Not eleven bullets worth. Not two bullets worth. AFAICT lead doesn't evaporate, even if the fire was hot enough to melt it.

All MOO

Lead does melt. We have multiple experts saying she was burned outside, so that's one hint the lead would've just melted.

Lead has a melting point of 621.5°F (or 327.5°C). The average bonfire has about 1.800°F or close to 1.000°C

There was also (intact) copper found (from her jeans), but copper has a higher melting point than lead, being close to 2.000°F iirc (or about 1.100°C). I don't know the exact point, but I know for sure it's much higher.

I don't know if she was shot eleven times. I think you base that on Remiker saying he found eleven shell casings? Like you said earlier about bullet FL, these casings could've been there before or after TH was there.

 

[Karinna]

Which is why I asked if you verified whether they EVER made such a claim. The State never said such a thing, ever! Zellner is mistaken or playing tricks here.

I think you are mistaken. The prosecution (State) most certainly did make the claim that TH was shot in the head. The bullet was their supposed evidence to attest to that.
(quote)
The prosecution also said Avery shot Halbach through the head. Strang said he “did not consider hiring a ballistics expert” to conduct forensic testing on a bullet found on Avery’s property which was allegedly used to kill Halbach. In the October 23 motion to reconsider, Zellner claimed that recent forensic testing on the bullet found “no particles consistent with bone.” There were, however, wood particles identifiable on the bullet, which supports an “alternate theory that the bullet struck a wooden object and not a human skull.”
http://www.newsweek.com/making-murd...was-ineffective-steven-avery-trial-new-714579

 

[Karinna]

And from the same article
(quote)
'Making a Murderer' Lawyer Admits He Was Ineffective In Steven Avery Trial, New Attorney Says Teresa Halbach 'Was Victim of Sexual Violence'
One of the star attorneys from Netflix’s hit series Making a Murderer has admitted he provided Steven Avery ineffective counsel during his 2007 murder trial as his appeal attorney Kathleen Zellner continues to point the finger at his nephew, Bobby Dassey, as a suspect.

 

[ACJL]

So ACJL, lets set the record straight here a little bit as you are so adamant that the states theory is legitimate.

What is it that you contend the state said with regards to that bullet?
I will also ask you you remind the readers here when that bullet was found.

How many times do you think TH was shot?
Where did all of the blood and DNA go that was on the inside of that garage? Remember, you have to correlate that with the amount of times you think she was shot. And you will also have to comment on whether or not you believe the investigators literally tore that garage apart looking for evidence that anybody was murdered in there.

Lets take this topic of where TH was killed, and really dig into it. Step by step. And lets see if the states theory actually makes any sense.

I don't know how much of the State's theory I believe tbh, but I agree with them that Steven is the most likely murderer of Teresa. He is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

I don't care when the bullet was found. The previous entries only contained one proper search, and I believe no items were moved then. When the bullet was found that was the first time items were moved out of the garage. I think this is a valid reason why they didn't find the bullet before.

Also, Manitowoc cops are always the cops accused with planting evidence, but not the rifle, nor the bullet, has ever been placed in possession of a Manitowoc cop. Lenk wasn't ever seen inside the garage either and there were no footprints in the snow indicating someone was inside there before the bullet was found.

I think Teresa was killed by Steven with his gun because:

1) a bullet with her DNA on it was found in Steven's garage
2) the bullet was determined to have been fired from Steven's rifle
3) a brownish-reddish stain was found in Steven's garage behind the lawnmower.
4) Brendan Dassey, without being coerced, drew a picture of the garage scene and placed Teresa behind the lawnmower and her blood spatter right at the same spot where the reddish-stain was found.
5) Before it became "brownish-red" it was a "red fluid".
6) Steven and Brendan both lied about their activities on the 31st and removed themselves from the crime scene before it was determined as the crime scene.
7) Teresa's skull had only entrance defects, no exit defects.
8) The damage to her skull was caused by a "high energy projectile", according to Kenneth Olson's testimony. (not a blunt object, like Zellner is claiming now)
9) Olson also detected the presence of lead in the cranial remains.
10) Steven used lead coated bullets.
11) There wasn't blood spatter in the garage, which seems to be consistent with someone having been killed by a weapon that doesn't have the power to create exit wounds.

I don't know how many times she was shot. I know two bullets were found in the garage and there were two entrance defects in her skull and lead was found embedded in her skull. So about four times I guess. But at least two times, since that is what her cremains indicate.

All the blood in the garage was all in that 4'x3' sized red fluid spot. The rifle Steven possessed, a .22 caliber rifle, didn't have the power to fire a bullet through a skull. Exit wounds are the wounds that cause blood spatter and stuff like that. An entrance wound only creates a tiny hole through which blood drips out. There would not have been a lot of blood. It was easily cleaned by Steven and Brendan.

There was only DNA found away from the area behind the lawnmower. If there was DNA behind the lawnmower it was removed due to the combination of gasoline, paint thinner and especially bleach.

 

[Karinna]

And as per KZ if she can prove TH was still alive when she left the Avery property then SA was not the murderer IMO.
(quote)
Now, Strang is admitting he provided Avery ineffective counsel as Zellner—Avery’s current defense attorney—continues her dogged pursuit of a new trial. A Wisconsin judge ruled in October that Avery had not provided sufficient evidence to grant a new trial, but in a motion to reconsider filed October 23, Zellner disclosed compelling new evidence that could exonerate Avery, including that Halbach allegedly left Avery’s auto salvage yard alive on the day she died.
http://www.newsweek.com/making-murderer-new-evidence-teresa-halbach-steven-avery-bobby-dassey-691428

 

[Karinna]

I don't know how much of the State's theory I believe tbh, but I agree with them that Steven is the most likely murderer of Teresa. He is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

I don't care when the bullet was found. The previous entries only contained one proper search, and I believe no items were moved then. When the bullet was found that was the first time items were moved out of the garage. I think this is a valid reason why they didn't find the bullet before.

Also, Manitowoc cops are always the cops accused with planting evidence, but not the rifle, nor the bullet, has ever been placed in possession of a Manitowoc cop. Lenk wasn't ever seen inside the garage either and there were no footprints in the snow indicating someone was inside there before the bullet was found.

I think Teresa was killed by Steven with his gun because:

1) a bullet with her DNA on it was found in Steven's garage
2) the bullet was determined to have been fired from Steven's rifle
3) a brownish-reddish stain was found in Steven's garage behind the lawnmower.
4) Brendan Dassey, without being coerced, drew a picture of the garage scene and placed Teresa behind the lawnmower and her blood spatter right at the same spot where the reddish-stain was found.
5) Before it became "brownish-red" it was a "red fluid".
6) Steven and Brendan both lied about their activities on the 31st and removed themselves from the crime scene before it was determined as the crime scene.
7) Teresa's skull had only entrance defects, no exit defects.
8) The damage to her skull was caused by a "high energy projectile", according to Kenneth Olson's testimony. (not a blunt object, like Zellner is claiming now)
9) Olson also detected the presence of lead in the cranial remains.
10) Steven used lead coated bullets.
11) There wasn't blood spatter in the garage, which seems to be consistent with someone having been killed by a weapon that doesn't have the power to create exit wounds.

I don't know how many times she was shot. I know two bullets were found in the garage and there were two entrance defects in her skull and lead was found embedded in her skull. So about four times I guess. But at least two times, since that is what her cremains indicate.

All the blood in the garage was all in that 4'x3' sized red fluid spot. The rifle Steven possessed, a .22 caliber rifle, didn't have the power to fire a bullet through a skull. Exit wounds are the wounds that cause blood spatter and stuff like that. An entrance wound only creates a tiny hole through which blood drips out. There would not have been a lot of blood. It was easily cleaned by Steven and Brendan.

There was only DNA found away from the area behind the lawnmower. If there was DNA behind the lawnmower it was removed due to the combination of gasoline, paint thinner and especially bleach.

There was NO evidence of any of TH's blood in the garage.
I think if i recall correctly it was deer blood that was cleaned up.

 

[ACJL]

I think you are mistaken. The prosecution (State) most certainly did make the claim that TH was shot in the head. The bullet was their supposed evidence to attest to that.
(quote)
The prosecution also said Avery shot Halbach through the head. Strang said he “did not consider hiring a ballistics expert” to conduct forensic testing on a bullet found on Avery’s property which was allegedly used to kill Halbach. In the October 23 motion to reconsider, Zellner claimed that recent forensic testing on the bullet found “no particles consistent with bone.” There were, however, wood particles identifiable on the bullet, which supports an “alternate theory that the bullet struck a wooden object and not a human skull.”
http://www.newsweek.com/making-murd...was-ineffective-steven-avery-trial-new-714579

Karinna, earlier you said

"if the bullet had entered and exited her skull as the State claimed at Mr. Avery's trial."

Once again, the State never said a bullet EXITED her skull.

If I'm wrong here then please give me a video or a text in which you can hear/read Kratz, Fallon, Gahn literally say that the bullet exited her skull. I doubt you'll be able to find one.

On the other hand, the State surely did claim she was shot. They claimed Avery shot her with his own rifle and his lead coated bullets, as evidenced by the entrance defects in her skull and lead traces. There were no exit defects though, so the State could not say the bullets ever exited. Zellner is wrong when she said the State said the bullets EXITED her skull.

 

[ACJL]

There was NO evidence of any of TH's blood in the garage.
I think if i recall correctly it was deer blood that was cleaned up.

We will never know for sure what the "red fluid" was, bit since Brendan and Steven both lied about it, it seems to be something they wanted to hide. If it was transmission fluid they would've just said so. You're not gonna clean transmission fluid with gasoline, paint thinner and bleach. Actually, when looking at Steven's garage, you get the idea he didn't care about stains at all. You have to wonder why he cared so much about this one, on the day TH disappeared and was seen alive by the man cleaning the crime scene and lying about it.

There was no deer blood on the spot they cleaned. I don't think there was any deer blood at all? I think there was a deer in Dassey's garage. I think the deer was also retrieved after the 31st? So it doesn't matter as far as the cleaning goes.