CA CA - Hannah, 16, Devonte, 15, & Sierra Hart, 12, Mendocino County, 26 March 2018 #1

[enelram]

K_Z- Sarah graduated, can't remember degree. No record on Jen graduating.

 

[Starkville]

The girl that went to the neighbors in the middle of the night, asked the neighbors to take her back to Seattle, twice, she
said it to them. I wonder who was in Seattle where she thought she'd be safe?

That struck me, too! I was wondering if anyone from the festivals/scene had ever offered something to the kids, like “hey, if you’re ever in Seattle, you’ve got a place to stay!”

If I understand it correctly, the family had only recently move to Washington. If they were to flee to somewhere they knew people, I’d have guessed Portland.

 

[Whiteorchids]

Moms might have been arguing, blaming, yelling at each other after CPS left perhaps about facing jail and losing custody of the kids. Sarah has a record of felony criminal assault to the child. Maybe during the yelling the three kids got scared escaped had a backpack filled and ran away and are hiding. I hope and pray they are alive.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

If they were trying to escape the vehicle before/ during and/or after the crash?

Wanting to know more information now that you said that. Such as if the child locks were on that the drivers seat can do.

 

[cybervampira]

If they were trying to escape the vehicle before/ during and/or after the crash?

I had the same thought when I asked the question about the debris near the top of the cliff. Someone here said it looks like the inside panel of a door with an armrest.

 

[theirmommy]

I apologize if I misconstrued your post. I was responding to your “rush to judgement” comment and explaining why members had reached their conclusions. It appeared to me that you felt our opinions were unfounded and unfairly judgemental of these women. You made no mention that we weren’t putting “IMO” after our comments. Often the wording itelf makes it clear it’s an opinion. I do agree that some opinions have come across like facts, perhaps due to strong emotions. I’m not sure if I’ve done that and I will be more careful about it in the future, but I do believe that judgements expressed on this thread are mostly warranted based on the facts.
JMO

Nope, not you specifically.

I’ve been on WS for years. Pretty sure Kyron brought me here. Anyhow, this thread (case) has read very judgmental to me, more so than any recent case I have read up on. People have made posts that assumed a lot. I am reserving my judgement or opinion for once we have more facts, and right now I just don’t think we do.

Also, a poster was personally attacked for sharing an experience. We’re better than that as a whole, I believe.

And I agree, most of which is due to strong emotions.

Please don’t misconstrue what I am saying or not saying. I feel terrible that 6 children perished so young. It’s tragic. It’s horrible. At least one of those women chose to drive over the cliff, according to today’s news releases. That’s tragic. And yes there are report that CPS came calling and wanted to investigate. Yes there is documented abuse. It’s horrible. I wish it didn’t happen. But it did, obviously.


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[MelmothTheLost]

I get the sense that there was no "formal" homeschooling going on at all. I think these women subscribed to the "experiential/ observational" philosophy of homeschooling-- once the kids could read and do basic math, the formal approach to education ended. There is no evidence emerging anywhere, of any aspect or details of their homeschooling, except that they "did" it, and there were many books in the home.

No evidence that they were preparing the teens for taking a GED. No college or tech school plans for the 19 year old. No participation in homeschool activities outside the home, conferences, science fairs, etc. Not a single picture of the family engaging in any kind of homeschool activity, or even visiting museums. But lots and lots of pics of them at rallies, protests, fringe music festivals, hippie forest gatherings, etc. The real question is whether the kids could even really read at anything close to age appropriate levels? I sincerely doubt it.

So in effect, the set-up was simply preparing these children for a life of under-achievement possibly not much better than the one they'd have had to look forward to in their original families. Surely the goal of taking kids into care and then fostering or adopting them out is to break the cycle of under-achievement and at least to seek to ensure that they had sufficient education and qualifications to improve on their birth situation.

 

[CoreyRocks]

Could they have stopped to sleep? Maybe the children were sound asleep when the murderer mom, whichever one, drove the car into the water. Moo.

Would autopsy tell if they were asleep?

 

[K_Z]

I think we need to be careful when making judgments like this. When choosing to do domestic adoptions, one finds a large percentage of available children to be black or mixed race ethnicity. So it is no surprise that some white families will end up adopting black children.

And once they have done so, it's no surprise they might want their kids to have black siblings, since they already have white adoptive parents. I don't think this should be seen as a negative thing at all.

And I really don't believe that most adoptive parents choose their children because they 'want it to be about them' or anything like that. I think we end up being brought together in some fashion and it fits together, for many various reasons.

I really hate for this adoptive set of parents to be seen as some representative 'example' of adoptive parents anywhere from now on. :cry:

But we also have to accept that there ARE adoptive parents who choose the race of their kids for personal reasons. In our international adoption classes there was a white couple who openly stated they were looking for a caucasian child because they wanted the child to be racially identical to them, so it would be "easier" to raise them (and they were in the Russia program, before it closed). They didn't even try to "hide" this. I was astonished, and deeply disturbed.

And when were were in-country with our last child's adoption, there was a very disturbing family in our group that kept talking excitedly about how they had been planning to adopt from "this" country for so long, because they were trying to adopt one child from as many countries as possible for their "rainbow" family. They brought their other kids along. They voiced wanting to adopt from "at least" 4 or 5 more "countries". After more than a week with this family, I was thoroughly disgusted with their personalities, attitudes, and how their current kids were obviously just little puppets for their "exciting" lifestyle of travel to many exotic locations. Neither of them ever actually TALKED to their kids or interacted with them in any parental or loving way that I saw (6 existing kids, adopting the 7th) on this trip, except to give them commands to do something. "Sit down, eat, line up, hold hands, sit in the back seats of the bus, etc." They would not allow their kids to talk to any other kids on the trip, play together, etc. I despair for those kids, and the one they were adopting. Those memories bother me to this day.

There are many, many competent, rational, and loving adoptive parents who adopt older kids fully understanding and embracing the reality of the situation. There are also adoptive parents who adopt for all the wrong reasons, most of them selfish. Strangely, that mirrors birth parents, as well-- many good, attentive parents, and also many who never should have kids at all.

 

[rosemadderlake]

I see that also as very curious.

If there were two adults and seatbelts, and the rest of the children weren't, that just does not make sense to me at all.

I'm trying to think of a scenario where every single one of the children would not be belted in when both adults were.

I just can't think of one scenario these days.

What could this scenario be that none of them were in seat belts?

Sleeping / drugged, premeditated? Or, all just piled in, spontaneous?

Until a recreation of the crash is fully known I am having a hard time visualizing how all six kids and two dogs were airborn. Or was it the time lapse from crash to discovery; high tide, rough surf, predatory animals?

- Very difficult to get into the mindset of a tragedy like this, but I do suspect there is a connection between the ongoing high profile news of the Turpin case, fleeing CPS, extreme paranoia about authority and fear of a similar fate of discovery at play. Someone felt time was up, time ran out. To not spare the children's lives takes it to a cult-like exodus feeling. Imo

 

[keeleydoll]

Wanting to know more information now that you said that. Such as if the child locks were on that the drivers seat can do.

The driver can lock all of the windows from up front but the child door locks are manual. I also thought the large piece of debris looked like a door panel.

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[StephanieH]

Something about this kept nagging at me, and I realized this reminded me so much of Diane Schuler, who drove her van filled with kids into another car on the Taconic Parkway. She also had her seatbelt on, but the kids did not. I hope the kids in this situation were not as terrified as Diane's kids and nieces were, but they were all older so I am guessing they knew exactly what was happening.

 

[SATA]

I see that also as very curious.

If there were two adults and seatbelts, and the rest of the children weren't, that just does not make sense to me at all.

I'm trying to think of a scenario where every single one of the children would not be belted in when both adults were.

I just can't think of one scenario these days.

What could this scenario be that none of them were in seat belts?

Hate writing this, but dead or unconscious.

 

[keeleydoll]

The news channel here in DC posted that the vehicle was going 90 mph before the crash. Also, it was reported that it was a 2003 Yukon. That model only had 2 rows of seats, not a third row, unless it was the Yukon XL which it does not appear to be. Not sure when the accident occurred, however, 90mph leads one to believe it was intentional. So very sad.

The regular Yukon is the same as a Chevy Tahoe and has 3 rows seating 2, 3 and 3.

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[K_Z]

So in effect, the set-up was simply preparing these children for a life of under-achievement possibly not much better than the one they'd have had to look forward to in their original families. Surely the goal of taking kids into care and then fostering or adopting them out is to break the cycle of under-achievement and at least to seek to ensure that they had sufficient education and qualifications to improve on their birth situation.

The first group of 3 sibs were in public school in MN. So at some point, the moms were more open to doctors, psychologists, teachers, and mainstream education. That all seemed to change after the abuse substantiation reported by the school in MN. That's when these moms pulled the kids out of school, became estranged from their own families, and moved to Oregon, as soon as Sarah's probation was finished.

They must have presented a good appearance to the social workers during the adoption process X2. And with little to no follow up mandated post adoption, when things began to get difficult, there was no outside supports, help, etc that they allowed into their lives. They circled their wagons and closed off the outside world, except to their online friends, and their superficial acquaintances at the festivals, rallies, and protests/ demonstrations.

As I said earlier, I think the mom's homeschool educational philosophy had little to nothing to do with actual academic learning and preparation for adulthood careers or college. They seem to have embraced and valued "experiential" learning. "Explore and learn" inside the home. "Explore and learn" in strictly controlled and scripted trips camping or to festivals, rallies, etc.

Just as in fundamentalist religious homes they only teach rudimentary math and reading so the kids can read religious texts, and that often leaves the kids in a position of social dependence as they enter adulthood. For fundamentalists, the most common goal is for their kids to perpetuate the fundamentalist lifestyle. I think we see the same kind of "restrictionist" thinking here, but with a progressive, fringe-like "hippie" lifestyle. If the kids aren't prepared, encouraged, or nurtured to seek their own path as adults, then they stay close to what they know, because they literally "can't" leave. They have no skills or emotional fortitude to live apart from their parents. Nothing about the Hart kids' lifestyle indicates that they were being nurtured or guided as individuals, but only enculturated as a "group" of siblings. Only Devonte seems to have been "valued" (or showcased, exploited) as an individual.

 

[Breezie]

But we also have to accept that there ARE adoptive parents who choose the race of their kids for personal reasons. In our international adoption classes there was a white couple who openly stated they were looking for a caucasian child because they wanted the child to be racially identical to them, so it would be "easier" to raise them (and they were in the Russia program, before it closed). They didn't even try to "hide" this. I was astonished, and deeply disturbed.

And when were were in-country with our last child's adoption, there was a very disturbing family in our group that kept talking excitedly about how they had been planning to adopt from "this" country for so long, because they were trying to adopt one child from as many countries as possible for their "rainbow" family. They brought their other kids along. They voiced wanting to adopt from "at least" 4 or 5 more "countries". After more than a week with this family, I was thoroughly disgusted with their personalities, attitudes, and how their current kids were obviously just little puppets for their "exciting" lifestyle of travel to many exotic locations. Neither of them ever actually TALKED to their kids or interacted with them in any parental or loving way that I saw (6 existing kids, adopting the 7th) on this trip, except to give them commands to do something. "Sit down, eat, line up, hold hands, sit in the back seats of the bus, etc." They would not allow their kids to talk to any other kids on the trip, play together, etc. I despair for those kids, and the one they were adopting. Those memories bother me to this day.

There are many, many competent, rational, and loving adoptive parents who adopt older kids fully understanding and embracing the reality of the situation. There are also adoptive parents who adopt for all the wrong reasons, most of them selfish. Strangely, that mirrors birth parents, as well-- many good, attentive parents, and also many who never should have kids at all.

There are are some areas that do not have diverse populations. Did the white couple, hoping to adopt from Russia, live in a diverse area? Even if the international adoption class, was in a diverse city, they could have come from a rural area to attend the class. It could be difficult for children, from some countries, to move to an area where the schools have a very small minority population. Would it be more or less selfish to consider the diversity or lack of diversity, in your area, when deciding what countries to adopt from?

 

[HearMeRoar]

I get the sense that there was no "formal" homeschooling going on at all. I think these women subscribed to the "experiential/ observational" philosophy of homeschooling-- once the kids could read and do basic math, the formal approach to education ended. There is no evidence emerging anywhere, of any aspect or details of their homeschooling, except that they "did" it, and there were many books in the home.

No evidence that they were preparing the teens for taking a GED. No college or tech school plans for the 19 year old. No participation in homeschool activities outside the home, conferences, science fairs, etc. Not a single picture of the family engaging in any kind of homeschool activity, or even visiting museums. But lots and lots of pics of them at rallies, protests, fringe music festivals, hippie forest gatherings, etc. The real question is whether the kids could even really read at anything close to age appropriate levels? I sincerely doubt it.

I don't get the sense at all that preparing these teens for college or career was a goal or a process they were engaged in with their philosophy of homeschooling. While both moms apparently met at college in ND, I'm not sure if they ever graduated, or what they were studying. Jen apparently never worked from the time the kids were adopted (early 20s), and Sarah had 2 retail sales level jobs at Herbergers department store in MN and Kohls in OR. The oldest was 19 (Markis). There is no indication if he had a driver's license, or ever held a job.

Likewise I too do not believe that parents were preparing these kids for success/ post high school education, etc. However, there are Compulsory Education Laws. Kids have to attend school. When a family decides to enroll a child in cyberschool OR in this case "homeschooling", you must register through your school district or if you go outside of your school district, you still must identify your home school district. The cyber schools are charter schools but you still have to identify your school district and it is both the "cyber-school" and home school district that provides "oversight", i.e., that children are doing the work, making progress and achieving benchmarks. Also you would need your home school district for IEP's (individualized education plans) that would provide accommodations for any diagnosis or developmental delay. Cyber school is rigorous, and there is accountability. Students talk with teachers via skype and teachers know when students log in. I've never seen "homeschooling" without computers after working in both education and social work for 20 years though I have no personal experience with cyber school/ homeschooling. If parents decided to roll with a curriculum that does not have computers, I would have to see it, because it would have to be approved by the state department of education. AND there would be oversite to make sure the kids are achieving. FYI if you don't attend school, you're marked truant, and eventually (up to the oversight school) will go before the magistrate.

 

[akazia1978]

So in effect, the set-up was simply preparing these children for a life of under-achievement possibly not much better than the one they'd have had to look forward to in their original families. Surely the goal of taking kids into care and then fostering or adopting them out is to break the cycle of under-achievement and at least to seek to ensure that they had sufficient education and qualifications to improve on their birth situation.

Do we know anything about the mental state of the 19 year old? Only asking because I worked in a residential treatment facility for severely abused children. There were 19 and 20 year olds there that functioned at the age of a 10 year old (or lower). I noticed that the males born crack-addicted were especially poorly off, even after being removed at birth. It was basically the place these children ended up when foster/adoptive families could not handle them over time.

We'd see all sorts of weird behaviors. Cutting, stealing food, hoarding food, making drugs, sticking fingers up places they shouldn't be stuck (for hours), attempted grooming of other children, false accusations of staff members (there is a reason we had one leg in the room, one leg outside whenever speaking to a child in the room). After working there for a year and a half, about 3 times the average staff could handle, I quit. The constant biting, kicking, punching, and spitting was a lot to go through on a daily basis. Sure, we had happy moments, but the children would also snap for very little reason, some due to brain damage from being beaten in the head previously. If I felt myself getting frustrated with a child I would reread their case file to regain perspective on what they had been through and why they were acting out.

It's quite possible the 19 year old is/was not able to function in a normal setting. I do think these children suffered abuse, but how much I am unsure of. I don't feel like the family would have run from CPS unless something serious was going on, CPS is usually tries hard to keep families together. It makes me wonder if one of the other 3 was already missing/dead, because stuff really hits the fan when you can't prove to CPS where the child is. Otherwise they likely just monitor you, send you to therapy, groups etc.

 

[human]

wow. There are so many deserving children in foster care, NEEDING permanent homes and loving families. And now we are going to make negative judgments towards any white parents who dare adopt black or mixed race kids, because it is 'just off' somehow...:sigh:

I don’t know that “we” are making judgments. I know that I have become very aware of what people from the black, native, and Korean communities are saying nowadays. I think “we”are becoming educated

 

[Alice253]

I see that also as very curious.

If there were two adults and seatbelts, and the rest of the children weren't, that just does not make sense to me at all.

I'm trying to think of a scenario where every single one of the children would not be belted in when both adults were.

I just can't think of one scenario these days.

What could this scenario be that none of them were in seat belts?

Driver pulls off the side of the road and tells them they are taking a rest break and they don't have to buckle up while they nap???

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