CA CA - Hannah, 16, Devonte, 15, & Sierra Hart, 12, Mendocino County, 26 March 2018 #3

[SATA]

Please don't feel unsupported and insulted on this site--I don't think anyone means it that way. The vast majority of large families are just as loving and healthy as families of any size. However, there is a rare phenomenon where people have lots of kids not because they love kids and love having a big, busy family, but because they want the attention, or for other less-than-healthy reasons. (Some people *have kids in general* for the wrong reasons.) These people could be considered child hoarders because they keep having kids to fill some psychological need, similar to how some people keep getting pets they can't take care of. Not that kids are like animals, but some people treat them that way! I don't think the poster who used that term meant it to apply to all large families, but just to the dysfunctional ones.

And I doubt anyone would argue that sometimes, homeschoolers get amazing educations that far exceed those available in public or even private schools. And that most of the time it's a good thing for the families and kids involved. (I for one wish I'd homeschooled one of my kids, who was failed badly by his public schools.) But it's also true that abusers sometimes resort to homeschooling to hide their abuse. You see it a lot on Websleuths. Public school teachers are *required* to report suspected abuse, and homeschooled kids don't get that extra level of monitoring by society.

Should they? I think maybe they should--not because I think homeschooled kids are abused MORE--I don't know the statistics, but I bet they're abused less, actually--but because when they are abused, there's no one to raise the alarm.

Thank you for your balanced post.

I can see you have to tread lightly here and be careful with your words.

I did say the most large families seem to be happy ones, but that was overlooked.

I don´t feel like saying anything more - at all, really.

 

[Quill]

I hope no one interprets this as an attempt to mitigate the responsibility Sarah has in preventing this tragedy, because at the point she realized the children were (and would continue to be) abused she should have notified authorities and refused to be a participant. I'm responding to the statement that I've bolded. The entire "story" of this family should be titled "The Jen Show". She becomes involved with a partner, in college, who shares her idealistic dream of proving to the world SHE is a savior. How perfect that her soulmate has an affinity for children, particularly educated in caring for those with special needs. She starts her "life story' by fighting for equal rights for same sex couples. During chapter two she adopts 3 children. During that chapter there is some "unpleasantness" due to some unfortunate incident(s) involving CPS. No one is going to interfere with HER plan for fame, so she convinces her partner to take the blame for the "misinterpreted" child abuse. That was quite a coup, because not only did she successfully adopt her first 3 children - she also gained control of Jen. Jen committed perjury for her, and in doing so, gave up any possibility of pursuing an independent career in teaching. That record would follow Jen forever. The children, and now Jen, became her tools to manipulate and use to fool everyone they encountered. If Jen threatened to leave the relationship Sarah could remind her that her name wasn't on the adoption papers, thus she would lose the children. She also could provide a narrative that would prevent Sarah from being able to foster or adopt in the future. I believe that Sarah was also abused. I've been there and done that, and the primary concern about leaving the relationship isn't personal safety, it's to prevent further harm to the children. I think Sarah tried to free herself from the relationship and to change the dynamics by relocating and starting over, but the power Jen held over her by "possessing" the children always brought her back. Jen controlled the minds of the children and she undoubtedly used them as a threat. She could tell them to lie about Sarah, any abuse or mistreatment, and their "feelings" about their mothers. Jen was a gamer and she would be victorious at any cost. I've heard threats like "if you leave I'll commit suicide" or "I will kill you (and/or the children)" and it becomes an insurmountable fear. Especially in a case like this, where it has already been proven that the perpetrator can get away with the lies and abuse. Everything about this case is heartbreaking. IMHO

BBM

Agree with so muchof this, but want to point out that with a BS in ElemEd and a minor in SpEd, I don't think that she had a wealth of knowledge of dealing with special needs kids. Probably just the basics, and as has been discussed previously, the real knowledge of working with special needs kids would come from the experience gained in the clinical settings. She does not appear to have ever had employment in that area and maybe not even any certification (speculation by me) The degree allows you to become certified, but without certification it is useless. I am not trying to nitpick, I just feel strongly that as it appears, she really didn't have any real experience in that area.

 

[human]

BBM and edited by me

I had asked about her actual degree a couple of pages back. I believe the answer was BS in Elementary Ed. with a minor in Special Ed. This is why I asked. Varying degree programs aside and considering that I earned my degree a loooong time ago, I am not sure that even a minor in Sp. Ed. would adequately prepare a person. Someone earlier had mentioned that Sarah should have had training in "such and such" methods which prompted my question to ask about her degree. I think that Special Ed. degree is much more extensive/specialized and would also have required added strengths. I just can't see a minor providing enough to assume she had a highly specialized knowledge. Someone who has been through that degree program more recently may want to jump in here and add some insight.

She may very well have thought she could handle it but was mistaken. The reality of being the parent is very different from the textbook or classroom application. But curiously, she was the parent who worked outside the home, right?

Of course, at this time, we really do not know what the children's levels of capability and/or special needs they might have had. All we know is what we have gleaned from the moms' social media. This whole case is just so sad.

I can only speak about MN. People get an ed degree and then add special ed. They have had all of the requirements for regular ed. Then they get the specialized portion as a minor. I am too lazy to look it up but I am not sure special ed is a degree by itself.

She had all of the training she would need to know where to look for resources if she did not kmow how to,handle something. There are tons of resources on the net as there should be resources in the community.

Usually there are parent groups for all kinds of issues. My sister lived in a community of a similar size and there was a group for parents iwth adopted children where she lived in MN.

Even in regular ed we had training from the OT and the PT and speech clinician as kids are mainstreamed nowadays and teachers need to know what to do.

The OT gave us all kinds of ideas of what to do with kids who need calming techniques. In Milwaukee they were even using Feldenkrais and many schools use yoga and tapping for calming.

There are so many things out there . And she would know.

 

[SATA]

Adopting two sets of very 'hard to place' foster kids, out of the system, hardly seems like 'hoarding', in my opinion.

No, not a very high number of kids.

I was referring to families of 20 - 14 - 16 kids.

Hoarding was not a word I should have used. I am not a native to English.

I apologize and will just lurk for now, I seem to offend someone every day.

 

[Sleuth99]

Thank you for your balanced post.

I can see you have to tread lightly here and be careful with your words.

I did say the most large families seem to be happy ones, but that was overlooked.

I don´t feel like saying anyting more - at all, really.

Don't be discouraged [emoji1488]


IMO

 

[human]

My only source of information for Sarah and her education degree is this website. That said, I have not seen anything about her actually teaching. This fact is very important in terms of assessing whether she was actually a good candidate to teach children.

In my area, graduating teachers who are good candidates are immediately hired and placed in tenure track positions where they are granted permanent teaching certification in two years. Graduating teachers with potential are hired and complete teaching certification over several years (sometimes as long as ten). Many graduating teachers are put in the substitute teaching stream, which essentially means they will never have a full time teaching position except in small districts with fewer hiring options, and roughly 40% never see the inside of a classroom because they don't have the diversity of skills required to teach.

If Sarah did not hold a teaching position, chances are she was deemed an unsuitable candidate for the classroom. It's quite likely that an adoption agency would view her education degree as meaning she was more qualified to address the needs of special needs children, but if she was not hired as an educator after graduation, education institutions would see the opposite - that she is in no way qualified to work with special needs children or any other children.

Given what we know today, neither of these women should have been allowed to adopt. I do have to wonder if their lesbian status worked in their favor, where political correctness to some degree was more important than a thorough analysis of their parenting skills.

I wondered about her teaching as well. Someone brought up that perhaps her manager job paid more than teaching. I think her retail job probably paid more than $20,000 a year than a beginning teaching job would.

With her special ed degree, she would have be able to,get a job because many people start in special ed to get in the door and then they switch to their other degree such as elementary ed.

Where I live, until a couple of years ago, a sub teacher got $80 a day. No benefits. And no guarantee of a job each day. A teacher got tenure after three years where I lived in MN. There was no guarantee one would get tenure as you can be let go for any reason in those three years.

I agree with the person who said teaching would not pay enough.

 

[liltexans]

I came back to this thread hoping to see a search update regarding the 3 missing Hart children. Instead, I find pages and pages of posts about WS members and how they are offended by another member’s opinions or how they think people are talking about them personally.

Please stay on topic. This thread is not about any of us. It’s about 3 missing kids who were likely murdered by their parents.

Are there any news links from today? Any tweets about searches?

 

[Quill]

I can only speak about MN. People get an ed degree and then add special ed. They have had all of the requirements for regular ed. Then they get the specialized portion as a minor. I am too lazy to look it up but I am not sure special ed is a degree by itself.

She had all of the training she would need to know where to look for resources if she did not kmow how to,handle something. There are tons of resources on the net as there should be resources in the community.

Usually there are parent groups for all kinds of issues. My sister lived in a community of a similar size and there was a group for parents iwth adopted children where she lived in MN.

Even in regular ed we had training from the OT and the PT and speech clinician as kids are mainstreamed nowadays and teachers need to know what to do.

The OT gave us all kinds of ideas of what to do with kids who need calming techniques. In Milwaukee they were even using Feldenkrais and many schools use yoga and tapping for calming.

There are so many things out there . And she would know.

Special Ed is usually a stand alone degree in most states, usually with concentrations in specialized areas. In my state it is a stand alone BS in SpEd degree, with Elem Ed and Secondary Ed being the other choices. There are concentrations or strengths chosen within each to further specialize studies. A little blurb from one university's (in my state) Education department page:

"The Special Education degree program prepares teachers to teach children and youth with developmental disabilities, learning disabilities, and other areas of exceptionality, and leads to endorsements in the area of specialty selected by the student."

 

[Webby45]

Ithink the reason why people are suspicious of larger, homeschooled families is because of what we see in the media. Usually only the negatives get reported in the media.

For example, the Willis family. Duggars, Octomom, Kate Gosselin, all have large families and all have been exposed as having issues, some sexual abuse related. I still happen to think more has happened to those Duggars girls than what came out, and find the father odd.

theres also the family..can't remember the name but they're associated with the duggars.. homeschool, religious, and all the kids look sickly thin too. They live in an RV.

wait found it..the Rodrigues family. http://rodriguesfamilyministries.com/main/?p=3544

now the Turpin and the Harts.

there are many loving, large families out there, just doesn't get the exposure the bad stuff gets

 

[Emi]

I came back to this thread hoping to see a search update regarding the 3 missing Hart children. Instead, I find pages and pages of posts about WS members and how they are offended by another member’s opinions or how they think people are talking about them personally.

Please stay on topic. This thread is not about any of us. It’s about 3 missing kids who were likely murdered by their parents.

Are there any news links from today? Any tweets about searches?

Yesterday there was no search going on due to the weather here and the rain

 

[11223344]

I mentioned Sarah received training and skills to educate troubled kids. I should have said "tools" instead of "skills". I purposely said "to educate" instead of "to raise" and meant to specifically come back to that difference when I got to the part where I said she may have realized she didn't have the patience.


No, a degree in something does not make someone good at it.

I don't know her work history. I know of Herberger's and Kohl's. It is telling that she didn't actually go into education. Because she couldn't or didn't want to or whatever. I'm glad you all pointed it out. I meant to mention it, and then I get so wordy as it is....

I'm picturing her lamenting her career path in college already. Maybe she's a perfectionist and when she says she can't do this or doesn't want to, her partner only says "yes you can! You're great with kids! You know we want this....". What education was Jen pursuing?

She may have had the passion for the kids and that drove her to adopt but not work in field which would have been way too much. And maybe they thought she would be the stay at home, Jen would work, or they could both stay home but life is too expensive? Jen wasn't successful in her career? Couldn't make as much money? I'm wondering what Jen went to school for? Seriously being at the end of their ropes with six kids, great, fine, send them to school, get resources, after school programs, therapy, big brother/big sister. Sports. Occupational therapy, they'd get it all paid for. So, no words. Incomprehensible. Criminal. Serious mental health issues and sociopathy. If not psychosis here.

 

[human]

Exactly. I think many who are unfamiliar with the education system assume that a teaching degree means that someone is qualified to teach, but that is definitely not how education institutions view a teaching degree. Many qualified educators choose a different route after several years as an educator, often moving into positions related to education that require teaching experience and professional certification. Sarah seems to have done nothing related to education after completing the degree, yet I suspect she emphasized that degree in adoption applications and that adoption agencies gave her high points for that degree. It is during the practicums that real teachers are identified, and those who cannot cope with managing a group of children are weeded out. My impression is that Sarah displayed characteristics or "red flags" during practicums that excluded her from working with children.

What does that tell us? It suggests to me that adoption agencies need to re-visit the review how adoptive parents are selected and to look beyond the happy, smiling, eager faces of childless parents who promise everything that adoption agencies look for in prospective parents. They also need better long term evaluation of adoption families to genuinely monitor the mental health of the children.

Why was a young girl fleeing two lesbian women? What were they doing that disturbed her so much that she risked injury to escape? If this young girl was fleeing two men, would authorities have returned the young girl to the two men?

If she had red flags, normally they are counseled out.

 

[Zelda1010]

http://www.crimeonline.com/2018/04/...harts-age-may-have-been-miscalculated-police/

Info on identifying the kids and incorrect info regarding one child’s age.

This conversation never gained much traction. This age discrepancy hasn't been shouted all over or corrected anywhere else, has it?

Someone else pointed out that they haven't found "all of the cell phones" but were able to track the activity. None since March 26.

So Safeway video on 25th and cell phone used on 26th. I'll see if I can pull that fwd too.

 

[Sleuth99]

You know I just rewatched the raw footage of the neighbors interview and I wonder what the other neighbors with the blackberrys that Hannah crawled through have to offer about this.

I also sadly no longer think that Devonte ran away. When Hannah ran away they had flash lights and were searching for her so I think they would have been searching for him too if he was missing. I don't think they would have left without him. He was the one they treasured most so I think he was in the car and they all crashed. [emoji30]


IMO

 

[Zelda1010]

Mendocino Sheriff tweet:

https://twitter.com/mendosheriff/status/982077990338052096?s=21

Mendocino Sherrif missing poster

 

[Zelda1010]

Apparently there were multiple cell phones, and not all have been located yet according to that news link:

He said that authorities have not located all of the cell phones that belonged to the Hart family, but that they are still able to track the devices for any activity. There has been no cell phone activity since March 26. Investigators are continuing to examine surveillance footage taken at a grocery store in Fort Bragg, California, where Jennifer Hart was seen on March 25, to help determine if all of the family members were together at the time.

From the crime online article, as well.

 

[Whiteorchids]

Ithink the reason why people are suspicious of larger, homeschooled families is because of what we see in the media. Usually only the negatives get reported in the media.

For example, the Willis family. Duggars, Octomom, Kate Gosselin, all have large families and all have been exposed as having issues, some sexual abuse related. I still happen to think more has happened to those Duggars girls than what came out, and find the father odd.

theres also the family..can't remember the name but they're associated with the duggars.. homeschool, religious, and all the kids look sickly thin too. They live in an RV.

wait found it..the Rodrigues family. http://rodriguesfamilyministries.com/main/?p=3544

now the Turpin and the Harts.

there are many loving, large families out there, just doesn't get the exposure the bad stuff gets

I lived by Octomom there was no sexual abuse.

 

[human]

I’m really having a hard time thinking that three kids, two dogs, and all their belongings (luggage, dog care items, etc) went missing and was never seen again. Some may be gone forever, but all? Maybe none of them/that was in the vehicle at all? Seems at least SOMETHING would have surfaced somewhere.

I live by the ocean and I do not go in if it is very wavy, A few times when it has been somewhat wavy, tourists have been in the water by me. One time a wave took an expemsive pair of sumglasses. The water was only about three feet deep.

Immediately, she, the husband and I looked for them. They were gone. The bottom is sand though so things get covered right away.

In a different area where iit was further out, a tourist was doing stand up paddle. She had borrowed snorkel gear from the resort. It fell off of the board. She and her daughter looked for it right away. Gone. It is sandy, however.

A man drowned a couple of years ago. The wife did not say anything for about an hour. She was a Japanese tourist so he was out there for awhile.

The surfers and fisherman are very aware of the currents. There were private citizens, the fire department and the coast guard was out with a helicopter within the hour. He was never found. It was a much smaller situation water wise as is the California coast.

 

[Compassion]

Does this sound like there were more than 2 cell phones (one for each woman)? Do you all think that the kids actually were allowed to have phones?

From the crime online article, as well.

 

[11223344]

it was on FB, so I can’t post it, but a defender of the Harts posted a photo and status by Jen Hart. It was photos of the kids and one of her stories about a magical visit to Glass Beach. It looks as though they had a great time there. I’m guessing they spent some time there before their end.

Does it say where they stayed when there?
That would probably be very helpful