CA - Hannah,16,Devonte,15,&Ciera Hart,12 (fnd deceased),Mendocino Cty,26 Mar 2018 #6

[Jax49]

KaaBoom, can we get you to add the ID of the last body located?

Hart family crash: Body ID'd as 12-year-old Ciera Hart


https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/18/us/hart-family-crash-body/index.html

 

[KaaBoom]

And don’t forget that the unidentifed body was identified as Ciera (Sierra) on April 17.

Thanks again for keeping track of all this, Kaboom.

KaaBoom, can we get you to add the ID of the last body located?

Hart family crash: Body ID'd as 12-year-old Ciera Hart


https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/18/us/hart-family-crash-body/index.html

Thanks. Got it.

March 2004: Earliest known public record that shows Jennifer Hart and Sarah Gengler, both from South Dakota, residing in Alexandria, Minnesota.

Summer 2004: The Harts take in a foster child named Lee. Then they later abandoned her the next Spring after they dropped her off at a therapist’s appointment, never to see her again.

May 2005: Sarah Hart petitions to change her last name from Gengler to Hart.

September 2006: Jennifer and Sarah Hart adopt siblings Markis, Abigail and Hannah.

September 2008: According to a police report from Alexandria, Minnesota, Hannah, then 6, tells authorities that one of her mothers bruised her with a belt. Asked about the beating, Jennifer and Sarah Hart tell a police investigator and social worker the girl had fallen down the stairs.

February 2009: Jennifer and Sarah adopt Devonte, Jeremiah and Ciera (Sierra) — bringing their number of children to six. An article from Paper Trail, a New Zealand-based news outlet, describes his adoption. The article said by age 4, the boy had been abused, neglected, shot at and had endured other traumas.

September 1, 2009: Jennifer and Sarah Hart are married in Connecticut, Jennifer is listed as the groom and Sarah is listed as the bride.

November 2010: Police in Alexandria, Minnesota interview Abigail Hart, 6 at the time, after a teacher discovers bruises stretching from her sternum to her navel. The girl says Jennifer Hart hit her with a closed fist, put her head in a cold bath, then hit her again, court records show. She was then grounded, the girl told police, which meant she had to stay in bed and miss lunch.

December 2010: Alexandria, MN home listed for sale.

April 2011: Sarah Hart pleads guilty to abusing Abigail Hart and is sentenced to a year of probation for misdemeanor domestic assault, court records show. Sarah told police she was the one who hit Abigail, even though the girl told authorities her mother Jennifer had done it. The next day, all six of the Hart children are taken out of public schools. They never attend public school again.

October 2011: The family lives in Alexandria, Minnesota, for a time and takes part in local activism. Hart family members including Devonte and Jennifer Hart participate in an Occupy Minneapolis demonstration.

2012: According to friends in Oregon, Sarah Hart travels to Portland to look for work. Jennifer Hart and their children later join her. Hannah loses front teeth after allegedly falling in house acceding to Jen's FB post.

August 2012: Alexandria MN house re-listed for sale.

October 2012: Sarah begins work at Kohls in Oregon (Sarah's LinkedIn resume).

December 2012: Jennifer and kids travel to Oregon, getting a ride with the Lees after rollover accident in Missoula According to Statesman Journal article.

April 2013- Alexandria, MN house sold. The family moves to West Linn, family friend Alexandra Argyropoulos tells Oregon child welfare officials that the Hart parents have been depriving their kids of food as punishment, she says. The Harts break off contact with her when they learn of it. Argyropoulos says she was told the Hart children had been interviewed by Oregon officials; it was apparent that each child had been coached by their mothers on what to say; and nothing more could be done by the Oregon Department of Human Services.

2013: Portland Portland musician of the band Nahko and Medicine for the People Ribner began offering music classes to the Hart children. The Hart children also started volunteering at the Good Neighbor Family Pantry

July 2013: The police department responds to a call to the Hart's house.

November 2014: Family members participate in a Portland protest of a Missouri grand jury declining to indict a Ferguson police officer in the fatal shooting of Michael Brown. Devonte and a Portland police officer hug, and the photo of the moment goes viral.

March 2016: Family members join U.S. Sen. Bernie Sanders of Vermont onstage during a presidential campaign rally in Vancouver.

May 2017: Jennifer and Sarah Hart buy a two-story, 3-bedroom home on 2 acres of land in the Woodland area of Clark County, Washington, property records show.

June 2017: Jennifer's rough year FB post.

March 23, 2018: The Washington State Department of Social and Health Services opens a Child Protective Services investigation in which the Hart children are "identified as potential victims of alleged abuse or neglect."

March 23, 2018: The Washington State Department of Social and Health Services attempts without success to make contact with the Hart family.

March 24, 2018 - 3:00 AM: Sarah Hart sends a middle-of-the-night text message to friend Cheryl Hart, only hours after child protective services first visited the family's home, saying she was so sick she might have to go to the hospital. The friend never made contact again.

March 24, 2018 - 8:14 AM: The family is in or around Newport, Oregon, after a stop in Naselle, Washington. It's believed they continue south on Route 101 until they reach State Route 1 in Leggett, California.

March 24, 2018 - 8:00 PM The Harts travel south on State Route 1 until they reach the Fort Bragg area in Mendocino.

March 25, 2018 - 8:05 a.m. Jennifer Hart appears alone on surveillance video at a Safeway in Fort Bragg, buying bananas and several other items.

March 25, 2018 - 9:00 PM: The family leaves Fort Bragg.

March 26, 2018: The Washington State Department of Social and Health Services again unsuccessfully attempts to make contact with the Hart family. They call 911 and ask the Sheriff's Department to do a welfare check on the family.

March 26, 2018 - 1:15 PM: Cheryl Hart calls 911 and asked the Sheriff's Department to do a welfare check on Sarah Hart. "Nobody has been able to get ahold of her, talk to her or seen her since," she told the dispatcher.

March 26, 2018: A passer-by along Highway 1 in Westport, California, calls 911 after looking down a 100-foot embankment and seeing an SUV upside down on the rocky shoreline. Five people are found dead: three children outside the SUV and two women inside.

March 27, 2018: The Washington State Department of Social and Health Services makes a third unsuccessful attempt to contact the Hart family.

March 28, 2018: The women are identified by the Mendocino County's Sheriff's Office as Jennifer and Sarah Hart and their children as Markis, Jeremiah and Abigail. Three of their other children: Devonte, Hannah and Sierra, remain missing. Sheriff Tom Allman said a search is ongoing for the remaining three children.

March 29, 2018: Police continue to search for the three missing children, including Devonte, and to investigate why the SUV plunged off the California cliff. Authorities don't know if the kids were also in the car, but are basing their search on the assumption that they were thrown from the car into the cliffs or the surf.

March 31, 2018: Officials reveal the speedometer on the Harts' wrecked SUV was "pinned" at 90 mph.

April 2, 2018: Officials say the crash may have been intentional, saying data taken from the family's SUV shows the vehicle came to a complete stop at the Route 1 pullout before speeding off the cliff. The search for the missing children becomes a "recovery effort."

April 2, 2018: "I'm to the point where I'm no longer calling this an accident, I'm calling it a crime," Mendocino County Sheriff Tom Allman tells HLN's Ashleigh Banfield.

April 7, 2018: An unidentified body, believed to be that of a black female, is found in the ocean near the site of the crash. Officials later identify it as the body of 12-year-old Ciera Hart.

 

[debbiegarcia36]

That is just weird. Maybe, maybe, maybe this was true for some of the kids, but Ciera, Hannah, and Devonte? No way. They in no way had the look of someone who mentally or emotionally can't handle adult life. No way. I see intelligence, spirit, and joie de vivre in their eyes, motions, smiles, everything. Even in Hannah's defiant closed-lip forced smiles. Especially in them.

I think Bakhtiar may have never known a bipolar narcissist. I have. I loved her; she was my grandmother. For decades I never saw the evil side of her because my mother wanted me only to have good experiences with her. But when I learned the truth, and saw for myself how she could behave when her mental health spiraled downward, I was shocked. She was Jekyll & Hyde. People who knew nothing about bipolar or NPD thought she was just a nasty person. People who never saw her nasty thought she was loving and generous. Only those who saw both sides *and* understood mental illness could realize that she really was Jekyll, but Hyde was beyond her control. She wasn't dx'd till 3 weeks before she died, so she never knew what was going on, and she'd had it her entire life so she just thought that other people really were out to get her sometimes and that life really should revolve around her, etc.

Sad, sad, sad. I've seen this in Jen right from the start, but I'm not a doctor and didn't know her, so I'm not pretending to know for sure she had bipolar and/or NPD. But that combination certainly can explain someone who really is loving ... and really is out-of-control crazy-nasty when crossed or triggered.



While I don't disagree with the rest, I have to point out that *many* teens don't have those things. Some are free spirits like the Harts' friends, or in the homeschooling community and will ultimately fill the dire skilled-trade gap (although not having a GED is a problem, I don't know if these poor dead children would have ended up that way or not). Some are public school dropouts who can't afford any of those things and may or may not end up with a skilled trade or starting their own business. Many, many (I personally know many) are very poor African-Americans, just like these children started out. They don't have phones or email accounts and certainly can't afford insurance or drivers' lessons and may or may not graduate from high school. It's very, very common. Most will eventually get phones as adults ... and that's about it.

Just context.

IMO, what Jen said was a bunch of hogwash. She was selling these kids short to make it seem like she was saint to care for them for the rest of their lives.

Also, IMO Jen wanted everyone to believe the kids had multiple disabilities to justify her reasons for isolating them.

If not for the abuse by their moms I believe these kids would have been able to realize their full potential if their mothers allowed them too. The kids appear to not only be smart, wise outgoing and resilient (Markis, not so much) but have musical talent as well.

Once the abuse started Jen and Sarah had to forever keep them prisoners because sooner or later a child would leave the house and reveal another house of horrors. Just my opinion.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

 

[Doghairrules]

I see a lot of non-black people who adopt black kids reject this. it's terrible to me on several different levels. a black person's hair is different and you should attempt to care for the child's hair instead of pretending a difference doesn't exist.

I once read an article in our local paper about the culture (for want of a better word) of black women doing their daughters’ hair. It was a moving account of all that goes into it and the love and lessons imparted that go way beyond hair. It’s probably been at least 20 years since I read that article and it has stayed with me. I’m sad that Hannah, ciera and Abigail didn’t have moms to do that for them.

 

[Doghairrules]

That's the main after effect and just being super out of touch with your emotions.

Yep. I stopped crying when I was in high school and didn’t cry again, or wasn’t able to, until I was in my 30s.

 

[babyblujems]

Where did you read that? I missed that horrible part.

A while back someone posted the documents for the interviews during the bathtub incident. JH explained how discipline was handled.

 

[Doghairrules]

How do you decide which emotions are legitimate and valid enough to get a kind, teaching response? Does the child's perspective come into play at all? What about teaching why doing the thing would be harmful? How is threatening a crying child ever helpful for the child?

You make me want to be a kid again so I can be raised by someone as wonderful as you. ❤️

 

[LeighB]

<modsnip>

How do you decide which emotions are legitimate and valid enough to get a kind, teaching response? Does the child's perspective come into play at all? What about teaching why doing the thing would be harmful? How is threatening a crying child ever helpful for the child?

Well, I gave 4 examples. My guess: kind, teaching response is the norm until you lose your patience. Do you ever lose your patience and stop being kind and teaching with your children for a little bit?

Of course the child's perspective comes into play. Absolutely. And the child is still taught why doing the wrong thing would be harmful; it's not mutually exclusive. I'm not justifying the phrase or using it; I'm explaining that its use doesn't inherently lead to broken spirits. Its harm depends on how it's used. My parents showed me day in and day out by their words and actions that they loved me more deeply than could ever be imagined. That was my context. But it appears many of y'all parent better than my parents and never do futile or even harmful things while frustrated with delightful-yet-presently-irrational children.

This conversation started because I had noticed that JH's discipline regime, as told to officers, was to spank the child if they continued to cry after being sent to their room. I had pointed out that children who are in trouble often cry and can take awhile to calm down depending on the consequence so spanking them because they refused to calm down is very detrimental to their mental well-being IMO. I have heard of this happening in several homes and it always astonishes and saddens me.

I agree; that's sad. That's not the context in which it was used with me. I think it's not only horrible that this was Jen's official mode of operating, but shocking, given the love-and-peace persona they had. I think that the friends they had (including the "intimate" "best friend" who has decided to "speak out at the behest of the parents" yet only knew them for 3 years and never saw them at any time in the past 2 years) would be shocked at, if nothing else, the mere fact that they spanked at all.

 

[gitana1]

I understand your anger, but here&#8217;s the excuse. At the point the Turpin story broke, the DeKalbs had not had contact with Devonte. They had contact with Hannah and had been conned (gaslighted) by Jen and Sarah about what was going on. Personally, I think they should have reported the incident, but by the time Dana&#8217;s father did months later, it was too late. And I suspect Jen and Sarah could have persuaded LE that Hannah was disturbed. The kids were no doubt coached again.

The DeKalbs did not know what was going on inside the house. So when the Turpin story broke in January, I can see the DeKalbs drawing a parallel with the kids not being seen outside, but by then that&#8217;s all they could report. LE and CPS aren&#8217;t going to investigate something like that IMO.

I think we can all learn something from this without being angry at the DeKalbs. I doubt they&#8217;ll ever get over this. If I were Dana, I&#8217;d need serious counseling, partly to get past my fury at my husband for talking me out of reporting (if he did). We all need to adopt the motto &#8220;see something, say something&#8221; no matter what.
JMO

Yeah I mean this isn't the De Kalb's fault. Had they reported earlier all of this likely would've just happened earlier.

But they did wait awhile before reporting after Devonte began coming to the house. And that was after they were aware of the Turpin case and Hannah.

Nevertheless, it can be hard to know what to do and hard to believe nice neighbors could be harboring a nightmare and ultimately they did the right thing.

 

[kizzykat]

http://www.koin.com/news/crashes/jennifer-hart-friend-im-more-confused-than-before/1129169442

This is a new article about a Hart family friend who was mentioned earlier in one of the posts that was removed because it was based on social media.

[FONT=&amp]From the article:

The image Bakhtiar paints, however, is one of contradictions. On one hand, she said Jennifer told her that the children would never be able to live normal, independent lives as adults – that they would never be able to marry or have children of their own.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]On the other hand, Bakhtiar says the children she knew were smart and politically engaged and they were always dancing to music. She said they loved to read, and they were healthy, strong and physically active. She said they seemed younger than their years, but not immature.
Several posts have mentioned that the children were not being taught independent living skills. It sounds like Jen and Sarah had very low expectations for them or they wanted a family that would never leave them.
[/FONT]

Thanks Breezie.
Attached are screenshots of the texts shown in that video. Her words are revealing, IMO. If JH was the target of all the things she states, then so were SH and the children by virtue of living in the same house. But no mention of them. Only JH.

Looking back at their text messages, Bakhtiar says it's possible she should have seen warning signs. In one text message, Jennifer tells her that for eight months, she had only texted three people – her wife Sarah, Bakhtiar and a stranger in New Jersey, by accident. In the 2017 text, Jennifer told Bakhtiar it had been the hardest year of her life.

 

[LeighB]

You are really, really right, kizzykat. Those texts are all about her. Narcissist shines through in every word.

I wonder, why draw back from even close friends when it's the strangers you're worried about harassing you? Wouldn't that strike those friends as odd? I guess not. I know those friends are just shocked; I can't blame them for that.

 

[deugirtni]

I seem to have missed so much of this thread that I will *never* be able to catch up on. After reading through a bit, I have a couple of questions, hopefully y'all won't mind if this has already been gone over?

-can someone lead me to where the 'parents' have portrayed their kids to be disabled? I have noticed some discussion around the kids being disabled, etc., but can't find where it's coming from?

-regarding the 'drunk' JH... doesn't it take just a couple of drinks for *some* people to be over the legal limit? I have read in other cases that BAC reading after death can be affected by normal processes that take place after death, making the actual BAC level at the time of death innacurate and/or controversial - has it been said that those things were taken into consideration in determining JH's BAC level? This report indicates that not only death, but also being found in water also affects the ability to accurately determine the BAC:

Bodies recovered from water are particular problematic to deal with owing to possible dilution of body fluids, decomposition, and enhanced risk of microbial synthesis of ethanol. The relationship between blood and urine-ethanol concentrations has been extensively investigated in autopsy specimens and the urine/blood concentration ratio might give a clue about the stage of alcohol absorption and distribution at the time of death.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16782292

also this (and lots of others): https://www.atlantainjurylawblog.co...r-death-can-be-false-positive-up-to-0-20.html

 

[gitana1]

<modsnip>

Thanks Breezie.
Attached are screenshots of the texts shown in that video. Her words are revealing, IMO. If JH was the target of all the things she states, then so were SH and the children by virtue of living in the same house. But no mention of them. Only JH.

Looking back at their text messages, Bakhtiar says it's possible she should have seen warning signs. In one text message, Jennifer tells her that for eight months, she had only texted three people &#8211; her wife Sarah, Bakhtiar and a stranger in New Jersey, by accident. In the 2017 text, Jennifer told Bakhtiar it had been the hardest year of her life.

Man that reveals some stuff about Jen. I dot believe anything she's saying about being persecuted. But I'm interested in how this paragon of peace and love doesn't have friends or doesn't get along with most people because "I'm THAT different."

Yeah. I think we figured that out, lady.

Gosh how i wish these women were alive to see what we all think of them
now.

 

[LeighB]

You are really, really right, kizzykat. Those texts are all about her. Narcissist shines through in every word.

I wonder, why draw back from even close friends when it's the strangers you're worried about harassing you? Wouldn't that strike those friends as odd? I guess not. I know those friends are just shocked; I can't blame them for that.

 

[gitana1]

I seem to have missed so much of this thread that I will *never* be able to catch up on. After reading through a bit, I have a couple of questions, hopefully y'all won't mind if this has already been gone over?

-can someone lead me to where the 'parents' have portrayed their kids to be disabled? I have noticed some discussion around the kids being disabled, etc., but can't find where it's coming from?

-regarding the 'drunk' JH... doesn't it take just a couple of drinks for *some* people to be over the legal limit? I have read in other cases that BAC reading after death can be affected by normal processes that take place after death, making the actual BAC level at the time of death innacurate and/or controversial - has it been said that those things were taken into consideration in determining JH's BAC level? This report indicates that not only death, but also being found in water also affects the ability to accurately determine the BAC:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16782292

also this (and lots of others): https://www.atlantainjurylawblog.co...r-death-can-be-false-positive-up-to-0-20.html

In a few articles. They kept saying that the kids had eating disorder/hoarding issues to explain away their claims of having food withheld. Then their friend Nasheen said they told her the kids would never be able to move out, have jobs, get married. All 6. http://www.koin.com/news/crashes/jennifer-hart-friend-im-more-confused-than-before/1129169442

 

[LeighB]

I have read in other cases that BAC reading after death can be affected by normal processes that take place after death, making the actual BAC level at the time of death innacurate and/or controversial - has it been said that those things were taken into consideration in determining JH's BAC level? This report indicates that not only death, but also being found in water also affects the ability to accurately determine the BAC:

A few days ago, someone here said that BAC does not deteriorate post-mortem. I think that person may have been in the mortuary business, but I can't remember, so don't take my word for this.

I think, from your quote, that being in the water can *reduce* BAC due to dilution and microbial ethanol synthesis, but not increase it. So if there was a change, the level we see (.102 I think) is likely less than what it was at time of death.

 

[whoopiecushions]

I realize that, in the context of things, this is a little different but if someone approached me at a festival (and I am a heavy festival goer) and offered to "mentor" my kids or whatever, it would freak me the heck out and I'd go far, far away. Like I said, because we know other things that they might have done, it just adds to the isolation that it looks like they were creating. In everyday reality, though, I'd think it plenty weird if people I'd just met started telling me that they wanted to hang around my kids and mentor them. No, no, no.

I don't see what's so weird about this. This is how people from relationships and friendships. They have similar interests and meet at an event. They connect and offer to stay in touch. This woman also happened to be a Black woman adopted by a white mom. She could relate to that so she offered to help. What's so strange about that? Humans do this all the time. They relate and try to connect with each other. It's not like she invited herself to their house or anything. Plus I'm sure they bonded and chatted for a bit. I doubt she just walked straight up to them out of nowhere and said, "Hey I want to mentor your kids!" And she followed up which means Jen provided her contact info. When you provide contact info that's basically giving them permission for you to contact them.

A conscientious adopted parent should want her kids to connect with other people from their culture and probably appreciate an opportunity like this. Actually a conscientious adoptive parent wouldn't insist on living in an all-white town after adopting POC kids, which would've greatly reduced the need for a mentor anyway. If you live in a diverse town, your child will have natural opportunities to meet and develop relationships with people from their culture anyway, thus reducing the need to specifically find a mentor.

 

[flourish]

You make me want to be a kid again so I can be raised by someone as wonderful as you. [emoji173]&#65039;

OMG that's one of the kindest things anyone has ever said to me! Thank you! I'll adopt you if your want and if you'll keep your dog hair off my bed.

 

[Breamworthy]

Well, I think I understand this a little bit. I am often very, very hesitant to believe what I'm seeing (odd, but it's something very inherent in me, very deep). Secondly, I'm not sure that Dana thought things were really bad before the Turpin incident, but it seemed to me more like a light bulb went off when she saw the Turpin news. I can see how it could happen that way with me.

And, I'll say this: In a certain sense, the children looked and seemed very normal. (I don't know what they were wearing when she saw them in person but, in all likelihood, baggy clothing again.) When I look at many of the photos online, I'm often surprised at just how "normal" they look, even some smiles that seems sincere and, against all odds, I see some innocence. I don't see any "teenage-angst" or the so typical sullenness, or unwillingness to speak to "adults" (although teenagers are really practically "adults".) I can see someone saying to himself "maybe I'm misunderstanding the situation; maybe they're just mad at their parents", etc.

I feel bad for the Dekalbs a bit (although I posted a while back some criticism as well) because I can imagine how often they think back and wished they'd done things differently when it was totally and completely the Hart's who did this.

The Turpin children were discovered on January 14, and released from hospital on March 15. Even if the news story they saw was at the time of their release and not their discovery, it still was more than a week after that before they called CPS - a week during which Devonte was coming to their house daily, begging for food. I just can't imagine living with that suspicion for that long and not doing something.

I may have to go watch the segment myself to get more context, rather than relying on the transcript posted here, although I hate to give any clicks to Dr. Oz.

 

[flourish]

Just as another point-of-view, I was raised by parents who occasionally used the "I'll give you something to cry about" line. Most of my friends and relatives were, too. I see zero anger issues in any of us. I think the context matters *hugely*. It was only used when we were whining because we didn't get our way on something that really would have been bad for us, but we didn't care because we were, by definition, immature children. So if we were whining because we couldn't have a third ice cream cone, or wailing because we wanted to go to Six Flags, or stomping and screaming because we were firmly-but-gently reminded not to throw a ball in the house, that's the kind of times when that line might be pulled out. Is it genius psychological parenting? Not so much. But it wasn't harmful in this context to us, not at all.

Parents who use it to shut down any emotion a child has, or legitimate crying over legitimate sorrows (even minor ones, like a lizard dying)? That's wrong and harmful.

How do you decide which emotions are legitimate and valid enough to get a kind, teaching response? Does the child's perspective come into play at all? What about teaching why doing the thing would be harmful? How is threatening a crying child ever helpful for the child?

Well, I gave 4 examples. My guess: kind, teaching response is the norm until you lose your patience. Do you ever lose your patience and stop being kind and teaching with your children for a little bit?

Of course the child's perspective comes into play. Absolutely. And the child is still taught why doing the wrong thing would be harmful; it's not mutually exclusive. I'm not justifying the phrase or using it; I'm explaining that its use doesn't inherently lead to broken spirits. Its harm depends on how it's used. My parents showed me day in and day out by their words and actions that they loved me more deeply than could ever be imagined. That was my context. But it appears many of y'all parent better than my parents and never do futile or even harmful things while frustrated with delightful-yet-presently-irrational children.

Snipped, and emphasis added by me, for space and emphasis

So the examples you gave and your response indicate that you don't think children's feelings are valid if they are of the type like "It was only used when we were whining because we didn't get our way on something that really would have been bad for us, but we didn't care because we were, by definition, immature children. So if we were whining because we couldn't have a third ice cream cone, or wailing because we wanted to go to Six Flags, or stomping and screaming because we were firmly-but-gently reminded not to throw a ball in the house, that's the kind of times when that line might be pulled out."

And I'm saying the feelings in those situations are actually valid and legitimate, and worthy of more of a reaction than just a curt "you wanna have something to cry about...." kinda BS response.

Parent's need to consider the perspective of the child. They need to know why they can't have a third ice cream cone, or why they can't go to Six Flags. I'm saying every situation can be one for learning about your child and offering them good teaching and wisdom. Teaching opportunities with children are infinite.

And, if you must know, I don't currently have children living with me--my only biological child was killed by his father when he was a infant/toddler, and my stepson, despite a big custody fight, lives with his bio mom. I never really lost patience with either of them, nor my 15 nieces and nephews or my 9 grand nieces and nephews.

Then I've been the teacher for hundreds of preschool students, both typically developing, developmentally delayed, and those with behavioral and emotional issues. I've never had to resort to threatening a child with violence. I'm lucky to have a natural strong patience, good training, good education, and good examples in my parents and older siblings.

I'm never going to agree that discounting children's feelings, regardless of how valid you deem them, because children have their own perspectives which are worthy of trying to understand and work through instead of being shut down as "whining."

I'm no Mother Theresa, but I recognize that discounting children's feelings is detrimental to both our relationships with them and for the child's emotional health.