Deceased/Not Found Ca - Hannah,16 (fnd dec), Devonte,15, (dec nf) Ciera Hart,12 (fnd dec),mendocino Cty,26 Mar 2018 #7

[Kajol85]

You're right. They seemed to put on very good fronts whenever they were around most people. If 90% of what people saw was positive, then they'd be more likely to overlook any strange comment or incident that might have arisen. When people DID start questioning them, the women cut them out of their lives.

I don't blame the friends and acquaintances for any of this. The women were good at what they did. They knew how to create a public facade and stick with it. They manipulated.

^^^^

Some of the friends that have spoken out for them, I must admit I side eye pretty hard.
Max Ribner saw them 2x/week and yet admittedly said he only really knew devonte. Same for the farm coop owner. Others out there as well, some of the comments from friends on twitter were *disgusting*
although I don't think they have many speaking out for them now.

 

[debbiegarcia36]

^^^^

No way. CPS and LE failed. There were so many chances to look deeper and take a closer look. Evil prevailed because we allowed it to.

We must look at this case and learn from it. Make things better. We can blame but ultimately its about getting better. So many reports of abuse and nothing happened to help these children. We can't let something like this happen again!

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[Kajol85]

I, certainly, believe they were evading CPS. I just don’t believe they wanted to end it all and kill six innocent children and two dogs. I may be naive. But I refuse to believe it was intentional.

Why?

LE has said it was intentional. There is a decade of documented abuse charges
Why do you refuse to believe when there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary?

 

[SarahW]

Law enforcement and CPS had help, (including the doc who was unwilling to err on the side of fattening up the kids) but they did fail to take the wide view of the career of abuse, and were far to slow to act. Oregon knew the women were hurting the kids, and they somehow managed to fail finding an actual conviction for child abuse. THere is enough evil to go around.


<modsnip>

 

[Momoffourboys]

Why?

LE has said it was intentional. There is a decade of documented abuse charges
Why do you refuse to believe when there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary?

LE also said they were all buckled in-and they were not. LE also said all six kids were in the Yukon-and now have missing flyers for two of them.

Like I said...I may be naive. Just MOO.

 

[fridaybaker]

According to Jen. I don't belive for one second she fell and knocked her two front teeth out. My guess is Jen pulled them out as punishment. Sadistic woman she was.

Or she just knocked them out.

 

[fridaybaker]

Those poor, poor children. I'll bet it was just a matter of time til the older children rebelled and outted these wicked women. Unless they were so weak and emaciated, they would eventually speak out and act out. This was probably what Hannah and Devonte started when they moved to Wa. What a horrible life these poor kids endured.

Well, one question I've had is regarding Hannah after the "escape" incident. Does anyone know offhand if she was seen at all afterward? I'm going to look some on Google, but I'm not on social media sites so am not able to check there. I'll see what I can dig up, though.

 

[debbiegarcia36]

I, certainly, believe they were evading CPS. I just don’t believe they wanted to end it all and kill six innocent children and two dogs. I may be naive. But I refuse to believe it was intentional.

One' mental health can make he or she capable of anything. We see depressed, desperate, frantic, paranoid, fragile people kill each other or themselves everyday. We see individuals with no conscience, no empathy or remorse do horrible things to others. There's no way to logically explain or justify it but it does happen. Look at the Teresa Sievers case. According to investigators this abusive mumster intentional drove over tbe cliff and ended the lives of everyone in the vehicle.

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[Aescwynn]

LE also said they were all buckled in-and they were not.

If LE said that, it was very early on, like in the first 24 hours after discovery. Because if they did ever say that, they corrected themselves very quickly.

LE also said all six kids were in the Yukon-and now have missing flyers for two of them.

LE has always worded it like "there's no reason to believe that all six kids were not in the Yukon". They never stated it as a conclusive fact.

 

[gitana1]

I personally think this is it....truthfully. I don't see this as premeditated or even them using the kids as labor of any kind....


I see this as a person who actually got a placement removed because they used wire hangers (very Mommy Dearest) who had an ideal family tableaux, (Lesbian, vegetarian, holistic, festival going, free love, transracial, one love family) who didn't have the psychological means nor the personal fortitude to withstand it.


1. Even if she had one unmedicated mentally ill child she'd be stretched to her capacity and it seemed she may have had 4. I know people think she was lying on this point, but I know very few kiddos adopted through foster care with absolutely no needs at all...seriously, it's so rare.


2. Imagine no screen time, outdoor time or schooling outside of the home? Parenting six kids all day alone? It would be enough to overwhelm the best parent. I think her harsh disciplines were buying her quiet time...time she would have had if they kids had been engaged in activities outside of the home. (Edited to add


She thought they had food issues...for whatever reason and ran with that to the extreme. We are vegetarians, my kids are slim they metabolize food quickly cause they eat, whole, healthy food. I am not slim, I eat less than they do


. Perhaps withholding food "worked" to help with things, medication, therapy, outside time, friends and other things would have done a better job of. She wanted six kids and didn't want six children especially noises, messy, diagnosed kids with trauma.


3. Also, I know this is not likely but the fact that the anonymous friend brought up JH's obsession with her is suspect in my eyes which makes me wonder what her motives were in making the report. I'm not sure if she was a lesbian or not, but it's a weird thing to tell a CPS worker if there wasn't some ulterior motive.


4. Watch the Bernie Sanders video, while they may have known they were on camera, they didn't act just for the camera, you can see the family interactions there...the kids seem genuinely happy and organic, Jen seems a bit off....but it's up for debate.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nK2IlTweyLQ


5. I don't think this was a case of cruelty <modsnip>, especially six unmedicated ones or six with issues that were never seen by doctors....the control she exhibited looks like fear to me, fear she'd lose control of them, the dive off a cliff together....fear.


6. She simply wasn't what she thought she was, she couldn't parent the way she wanted to and every time she tried she became less and less of what she wanted to be and the kids suffered for it.


Edited to add: Sarah was her partner and Sarah had to buy into the "family" parenting or she would have been out.

You have some interesting points to consider. Except I take issue with # 3. So many people from different walks of life reported extreme abuse. We must know by now that none of that was false or exaggerated or due to "ulterior motives".

The context of that comment appeared to be Jen's delusion and the reporter's concern due to Jen's extremely bizarre behavior and reactions when it came to the kids. Explaining that tidbit to the worker in that context was a detailed attempt to get the worker to see beyond the sheen. That the picture perfect impression of a happy family that fooled so many people despite massive red flags, was all b.s.

I do think she operated on fear- fear due to her severe narcissism, that the truth of what was happening would come out. I agree that kids with issues could test the most sane person. And she wasn't stable or sane.

But I also do think she was a sadist. Just like other families we've heard of who adopt or fight hard to maintain control of kids they seem to hate, abusing them almost to death or to death, the kids were play toys to this woman. I believe she enjoyed harming them. Perhaps being overwhelmed sparked the slide into cruelty but it was within her nature and I think she derived pleasure from abusing those babies.

mtnlites, you said you have some mutual friends with the Harts, right? Do you have any insights on their responses since last night's news came out?

Oh I so want to know. Especially the ones who spoke out. Like the woman who insisted they should be "idolized". Gag.

I can understand being shocked or in denial. I can't understand speaking out so strongly even with the few facts already out when they did.

Right? And the Oregon caseworker appeared to do all the follow up she could have possibly
Done. Makes me wonder if someone higher up the food chain closed the case.

See below.

Thank you and HeidiTX232 for your perspectives. I am clearly the minority on here for believing the OR CPS documents as proof of effort on their part. It's easy in hindsight to blame "the system" for not intervening but these children presented their situation as GOOD. Most of the people who knew this family were fooled. The CPS report is thorough and well-researched. If they'd stayed in OR and more reports had come in, the history would have been there, and they may have been able to act and intervene. But that wouldn't have happened. S&J made sure they didn't stay in OR, and they moved again.


The blame belongs on those two women, the state of Texas, on anyone else who had concerns and didn't report them. I'm sure in OR, there are caseworkers who are deeply affected by the fact they were not able to act. And again, God Bless the Media for getting those documents to us.


Just my opinion.

Agreed. I do believe the CPS worker was intent on saving those kids. The stupid doctor's report was the end though. Her hands were tied. I recall the woman who reported saying the CPS worker was as horrified as she was and felt the kids had been coached and was upset she couldn't do more.

I don't know what the answer is in such situations. We've all heard stories of ignorant CPS workers taking away kids for nothing - playing in a park, false allegations, etc. So how much government control do we want to allow in order to prevent things like this from happening? Do we allow more and more intrusiveness understanding that some CPS workers are not bright or informed or educated enough for the job and who may make decisions or reports based on personal feelings or differences in attitudes about parenting or culture?

It's a conundrum. We have strict due process requirements in every state when it comes to CPS/DHS for a reason. But then babies like these fall through the cracks and I don't know the answer.

I do think that in cases where there has been founded abuse previously, all bets should be off and they should be subject to greater scrutiny and a higher level of concern. Especially when they're suddenly isolating the kids.

 

[gcharlie]

This was discussed thoroughly in the first couple of threads.

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If you could direct me, I'd greatly appreciate it.

I only get one hit searching "extract" in the prior 6 threads and it's in thread 5. I've been reading here since the early days of the first thread and I have not seen any thorough discussion of how easy it would be for an untrained person to extract teeth without special tools.

TIA

 

[fridaybaker]

The oldest boy, nine at the time , that was a sib to Devonte and the others, must have been devastated when his sibs were chosen to go live a golden life and he was left behind.

I hope he gets therapy . All of those years of grieving. And now he has another reason to grieve

Human, I was horrified when I'd read about this. I can't imagine having all three of my siblings ripped away from me forever and being "left behind". To a child it must have been devastating. I also wonder about why he couldn't/didn't have any interaction with them. Even if the parents were abusive and the idea was that it was best the children never see them again in their lives, what about the brother?

I think it would take something very, very concrete and documented for me to adopt the three siblings and at least not have them have a very distant relationship -write him letters of love and support, etc.

 

[debbiegarcia36]

Human, I was horrified when I'd read about this. I can't imagine having all three of my siblings ripped away from me forever and being "left behind". To a child it must have been devastating. I also wonder about why he couldn't/didn't have any interaction with them. Even if the parents were abusive and the idea was that it was best the children never see them again in their lives, what about the brother?

I think it would take something very, very concrete and documented for me to adopt the three siblings and at least not have them have a very distant relationship -write him letter of love and support, etc.

I read Dontay is 21 and is now in prison. I believe he is 5 years older than Devonte and a half brother. The mother had 7 kids, different fathers. Jeremiah is a half brother. Ill look for the link.

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[kizzykat]

Income and the accolades/attention at the events she liked to attend. I also think she really wanted people to control, who better than defenseless children that no one would believe because of their backgrounds?&#62996;


I wonder if we can find out why the agency in MN closed?

Also I wonder if there is a way to petition to get the records unsealed from TX, since a crime has been committed?

BBM

I checked MN Secretary of State inactive businesses for business name "Permanent Family" to see what came up:
Non-profit Corp (Domestic)
Registered Address was in Fergus Falls, MN
Original filing 4/12/2000
4/12/2000 Business Name Filed: Permanent Family Resource Center
9/20/2005 Involuntary Dissolution Filed
1/09/2008 Annual Reinstatement Filed
5/17/2011 Intent to Dissolve Filed
1/27/2012 Dissolution Filed
A few other details can be found there but you have to put in the business name and search "inactive":
https://mblsportal.sos.state.mn.us/Business/Search

Per MN Statute:
(a) A corporation that has failed to file a renewal pursuant to subdivision 1 must be dissolved by the secretary of state as described in paragraph (b).
https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=317A.823


Red flag? If they used that particular agency it would appear the first adoption in 2006 took place after the involuntary dissolution by the SoS and before the reinstatement was filed. So during the period it was not registered as a business with the MN SoS.
September 2006: Jennifer and Sarah Hart adopt siblings Markis, Abigail and Hannah.
February 2009: Jennifer and Sarah adopt Devonte and two of his siblings [Jeremiah, Sierra]— bringing their number of children to six.
http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-n...f/2018/03/hart_family_deadly_crash_a_tim.html

Note: The above business name matches up to the old website that Mira_Eg found earlier:
http://web.archive.org/web/20071215215326/http://www.permanentfamily.org:80/history.html

Also I scanned the OR DHS report again to verify adoption dates and noticed something seems off here. Report states JH/SH became certified in MN to be "placement resource" for a friend's child in 2010. (The teen that didn't last long due to using wire hangers. See pg 19 OR DHS link below.) This was not "Lee", she arrived summer 2004 and was dumped at her therapist's appointment Spring 2005. Per the Oregon Live article linked above, the Hart's weren't even licensed as foster parents till April 2005.

My head is spinning, bear with me! So if the above info is correct, the first adoption, if through that particular agency, was done when it wasn't lawfully registered as a business with MN SoS. The first foster child Lee was taken in before they were even licensed for foster care. And if the DHS report is correct regarding the 2010 certification as placement resource, then the Harts wanted to foster again the year after adopting the 2nd set of 3 siblings?
Again, if the above is all correct AFA dates, and they used that particular agency in 2006, then these women were at times skirting around the system it would seem, or the system was letting them skirt around it. Possibly illegally? And on top of that temporarily taking in another kid for a total of 7.

Page 19, source of 2010 "placement resource" note :
https://www.scribd.com/embeds/37719...J3P2I7dtOJqmmeeiRQO&show_recommendations=true
Article on foster teen "Lee": http://www.news.com.au/world/north-...h/news-story/1b33da3f5a1922a7da75d4967ad32a62

 

[gcharlie]

You have some interesting points to consider. Except I take issue with # 3. So many people from different walks of life reported extreme abuse. We must know by now that none of that was false or exaggerated or due to "ulterior motives".

The context of that comment appeared to be Jen's delusion and the reporter's fire concern due to her extremely bizarre behavior and reactions when it came to the kids. Explaining that tidbit to the worker in that context was a detailed attempt to get the worker to see beyond the sheen. That the picture perfect impression of a happy family that fooled so many people despite massive red flags, was all b.s.

I do think she operated on fear- fear due to her severe narcissism, that the truth of what was happening would come out. I agree that kids with issues could test themost sane person. And she wasn't stable or sane.

But I also do think she was a sadist. Just like other families we've heard of who adopt or fight hard to maintain control of kids they seem to hate, abusing them almost to death or to death, the kids were play toys to this woman. I believe she enjoyed harming them. Perhaps being overwhelmed sparked the slide into cruelty but it was within her nature and I think she derived pleasure from abusing those babies.




Oh I so want to know. Especially the ones who spoke out. Like the woman who insisted they should be "idolized". Gag.

I can understand being shocked or in denial. I can't understand speaking out so strongly even with the few facts already out when they did.




See below.




Agreed. I do believe the CPS worker was intent on saving those kids. The stupid doctor's report was the end though. Her hands were tied. I recall the woman who reported saying the CPS worker was as horrified as she was and felt the kids had been coached and was upset she couldn't do more.

I don't know what the answer is in such situations. We've all heard stories of stupid CPS workers taking away kids for nothing - playing in a park, false allegations, etc. So how much government control do we want to allow in order to prevent things like this from happening? Do we allow more and more intrusiveness understanding that some CPS workers are not bright or informed or educated enough for job and who may make decisions or reports based on personal feelings or differences in attitudes about parenting or culture?

It's a conundrum. We have strict due process requirements in every state when it comes to CPS/DHS for a reason. But then babies like these fall through the cracks and I don't know the answer.

I do think that in cases where there has been founded abuse previously, all bets should be off and they should be subject to greater scrutiny and a higher level of concern. Especially when they're suddenly isolating the kids.

If I read the report correctly, not only did OR reach out to MN, but they also had two other people in addition to the original reporter corroborating the initial report.

If this understanding is correct, then CPS should not have needed corroboration from the children. It seemed that between the lack of any reported abuse by the children, along with the physician's inconclusive report, the case was closed. Perhaps this is an area where CPS could improve their case procedures before closing the case?

 

[Whiteorchids]

Or she just knocked them out.

Could be Hannah was being mouthy and with Mumster’s temper with her fist punched her hard in the mouth which knocked out her teeth. She was a very small girl so her teeth were most likely small. Mumster Jen did use her fist on Abigail. I don’t believe Sarah did it as Abigail said it was Jen.

 

[debbiegarcia36]

If you could direct me, I'd greatly appreciate it.

I only get one hit searching "extract" in the prior 6 threads and it's in thread 5. I've been reading here since the early days of the first thread and I have not seen any thorough discussion of how easy it would be for an untrained person to extract teeth without special tools.

TIA

Possible ways the tooth could have fallen out were discussed. Id have to go back and search those discussions.

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[Kajol85]

officials knew the Harts faced abuse allegations in Oregon, including an incident in which Hart forced her children to lie on an inflated mattress for five hours with sleeping masks over their faces after a pizza went missing from an acquaintance’s fridge.

Still, Oregon’s child protective agency closed its investigation into the family after five months, in December 2013. A welfare agent concluded that, despite at least seven independent reports of abuse across the two states, they were “unable to determine” if those reports were warranted because of “insufficient data.

Christine Stone, a spokeswoman for the Oregon DHS, told The Post that since the state closed its investigation in 2013, case workers have moved away from incident-based investigations to more comprehensive safety assessments to better determine the immediate needs of a child"
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ds-show/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.3c022005b8d0


Interesting and comprehensive article on what was known and how multiple agencies failed to take action

FBI is still looking for Hannah and Devonte. Please God I hope they are out there

 

[human]

Could be Hannah was being mouthy and with Mumster’s temper with her fist punched her hard in the mouth which knocked out her teeth. She was a very small girl so her teeth were most likely small. Mumster Jen did use her fist on Abigail. I don’t believe Sarah did it as Abigail said it was Jen.

The best defense is a good offense. Put the narrative out there so people will not ask poor little Hannah what happened

 

[Kajol85]

http://www.crimeonline.com/2018/04/...sons-search-for-devonte-hart-and-hannah-hart/

"As local law enforcement agencies have gone quiet on the investigation into the Hart family tragedy, an FBI spokesperson confirmed to CrimeOnline that federal investigators are involved in an active search for missing Devonte Hart and Hannah Hart.FBI spokesperson Catherine Zackle confirmed on Tuesday"