Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #8

[deugirtni]

Simply put, the money the Shermans gave to charities, politicians, etc., was not done out of the goodness of their hearts. It was done to 1) reap tax benefits and 2) buy political favours that would be beneficial to them and their business. The heirs of the Sherman estate, presumably the family, would definitely be aware that money can indeed be used to get what you want, in this case, dignity after death.

When I was about 30 years old, my youthful idealism was shattered when I learned firsthand that people who give of themselves, their possessions, time, and assets, even their opinions, do so NOT for totally unselfish reasons. There is always *some* benefit of meaning to the giver, being accepted in return. The Shermans are no different from anyone else, other than they had enormous wealth. Given the same circumstances, I would surely hope that my family would spend whatever it took out of my wealth, to find the truth. jmo.

 

[deugirtni]

I wonder how much the crime scene was compromised by all these people.

Exactly. First we have at least 2 'staff' working around the place for over 2 hours, unaware of anything wrong. Then 2 realtors with x number of potential purchaser(s). Then hordes of police officers who apparently believe there is nothing to find.

 

[ldlager]

I wonder how much the crime scene was compromised by all these people.

exactly. And we don’t know who came and went in the “missing” 45 minutes when no one called police. Very concerning!

 

[deugirtni]

exactly. And we don’t know who came and went in the “missing” 45 minutes when no one called police. Very concerning!

Wow, I missed that. That is bizarre????

 

[Satchie]

Maybe the thing that's not right here, is that the first pathologist did not declare (to our knowledge) that it was a murder/suicide, nor that it was a double murder.

RSBM

I think it's helpful to remember there's a pretty strict bureaucratic process in place for everything to do with solving a crime these days. From this site, the government pathologist must declare the manner of death: https://www.mcscs.jus.gov.on.ca/eng...onersInvestigations/OCC_common_questions.html

What is a death investigation?
A death investigation is a process whereby a coroner or forensic pathologist seeks to understand how and why a person died. A coroner or forensic pathologist must answer five questions when investigating a death:

Who (identity of the deceased)
When (date of death)
Where (location of death)
How (medical cause of death)
By what means (natural causes, accident, homicide, suicide or undetermined)
Information may be obtained from several sources including, but not limited to family, co-workers, neighbours, doctors, hospital records, police and other emergency service workers. Contact with family is vital as they often have important information that can aid the investigation.

How are police involved?
Police are usually among the first responders at a death scene. Coroners may request police assistance with investigations.

I speculate the manner of death for Honey Sherman had been declared (officially signed off) as a homicide and that's why police were putting her name on forms as a victim of homicide.

I assume that means Barry's manner of death had not yet been declared. I don't believe the pathologist had declared it a suicide and closed the file, only to hastily go back and cross out 'suicide' and write in 'homicide' after the word got back about the other autopsy. These are professionals working in a bureaucratic structure, reporting to a chief coroner, etc.

I think it much more likely the pathologist had just not yet filled in the form and signed off on the determination of manner of death, while the homocide squad investigated. There was no urgency, it can wait until the time is right to sign off and hold a press conference. I think in such a high profile case, they'd have preferred to make the public statement strategically, to potentially assist in solving the crime (for eg, releasing CCTV footage), but the family forced their hand.

Instead, they were put on the defensive, explaing they'd been busy doing the incredibly time-consuming job of police work

"Gomes said officers have spent thousands of hours on the investigation so far, including:

The collection of 150 pieces of evidence from the crime scene.
The collection of 2,000 hours of surveillance footage from the area around the Sherman home.
The search of two residential properties owned by the Shermans, including a Miami-area condo.
The execution or orders for 20 judicial authorizations and searches.
Toronto police have searched Barry Sherman's workplace at Apotex Inc., a generic drug manufacturing company that he founded in 1973".
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/sherman-deaths-toronto-police-update-1.4505259

 

[ldlager]

RSBM

I think it's helpful to remember there's a pretty strict bureaucratic process in place for everything to do with solving a crime these days. From this site, the government pathologist must declare the manner of death: https://www.mcscs.jus.gov.on.ca/eng...onersInvestigations/OCC_common_questions.html



I speculate the manner of death for Honey Sherman had been declared (officially signed off) as a homicide and that's why police were putting her name on forms as a victim of homicide.

I assume that means Barry's manner of death had not yet been declared. I don't believe the pathologist had declared it a suicide and closed the file, only to hastily go back and cross out 'suicide' and write in 'homicide' after the word got back about the other autopsy. These are professionals working in a bureaucratic structure, reporting to a chief coroner, etc.

I think it much more likely the pathologist had just not yet filled in the form and signed off on the determination of manner of death, while the homocide squad investigated. There was no urgency, it can wait until the time is right to sign off and hold a press conference. I think in such a high profile case, they'd have preferred to make the public statement strategically, to potentially assist in solving the crime (for eg, releasing CCTV footage), but the family forced their hand.

Instead, they were put on the defensive, explaing they'd been busy doing the incredibly time-consuming job of police work

"Gomes said officers have spent thousands of hours on the investigation so far, including:

The collection of 150 pieces of evidence from the crime scene.
The collection of 2,000 hours of surveillance footage from the area around the Sherman home.
The search of two residential properties owned by the Shermans, including a Miami-area condo.
The execution or orders for 20 judicial authorizations and searches.
Toronto police have searched Barry Sherman's workplace at Apotex Inc., a generic drug manufacturing company that he founded in 1973".
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/sherman-deaths-toronto-police-update-1.4505259

The first doctor did the autopsies at the same time, I mean one after the other. If he decided both were murdered after performing each autopsy, why only fill in the form and only sign off on honey? Why wait to sign off on Barry? I believe that honeys injuries and blood led him to conclude she was murdered. But Barry had marks from wrist bindings just like her, and presumably he also ligature marks around his neck, and internal injuries consistent with being strangled by something other than a belt. The second coroner found the same things and concluded murder, seemingly almost immediately. Yet the first doctor decided to wait 20 days? Given that he is highly trained, given that he is a professional, and given that it is such a high profile case, Stalling or putting it off makes no sense to me.

 

[ldlager]

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada...d-from-murder-suicide-to-double-homicide.html

“Sources say Pickup saw indications that it might be a case of double murder. However, Pickup did not make that ruling.”
My question- why not?

 

[Hazel]

The private team came to the 'murder/murder' conclusion on December 20th, the same day as their autopsy was performed, but yet they didn't go public with it until exactly one month later. It seems like perhaps they gave TPS a full month to make their determination, based on evidence, and release the scene. When they still didn't/couldn't do that, perhaps that is when the private team decided to go public with their information. Then lo and behold, TPS is forced into making the effort to bother to speak to the second pathologist.... and a few days later, hold a press conference agreeing with the murder/murder theory.

Is it possible that TPS could have been thinking the same thing all along, but wanting to investigate freely, without the murderer(s) knowing that it was suspected to be anyone other than BS?

jmo

respectfully snipped by me

"The private team came to the 'murder/murder' conclusion on December 20th, the same day as their autopsy was performed,"

In my humble opinion, I think what you just said, in what I respectfully bolded, is very accurate and important.

According to what we have been told, the first pathologist was present when the second pathologist arrived, and showed him pictures, etc. We don't know if he stayed the whole time.

How is it possible for the PI's team to conclude mm right after their hired pathologist carrying out the second set of autopsies, that very same day, Dec. 20th (one day before the funeral), without having any other forensic evidence of the crime scene(s)? Without having set foot inside the home and viewed the crime scene. Without having reviewed any surveillance videos, audio, alarm system, etc. Nor having any access to the boxes and boxes of evidence, that the TPS homicide and forensic team, professionally collected during the next 6 weeks?

This doesn't make sense to me, to conclude mm only based on "markings" that could have been self-inflicted. JMHO

"Is it possible that TPS could have been thinking the same thing all along, but wanting to investigate freely, without the murderer(s) knowing that it was suspected to be anyone other than BS?"

Most definitely, it's possible, but then why not include Barry's name in all the search warrants, etc., which they applied for not once but on various different dates, and all only contain Honey's name?

Perhaps there is a good reason for that, but for the time being, it doesn't make any sense to me. JMHO

 

[Hazel]

The first doctor did the autopsies at the same time, I mean one after the other. If he decided both were murdered after performing each autopsy, why only fill in the form and only sign off on honey? Why wait to sign off on Barry? I believe that honeys injuries and blood led him to conclude she was murdered. But Barry had marks from wrist bindings just like her, and presumably he also ligature marks around his neck, and internal injuries consistent with being strangled by something other than a belt.
The second coroner found the same things and concluded murder, seemingly almost immediately. Yet the first doctor decided to wait 20 days? Given that he is highly trained, given that he is a professional, and given that it is such a high profile case, Stalling or putting it off makes no sense to me.

Makes no sense to me neither.

We have to make a distinction between the first and second pathologist, because we haven't heard anything about the first pathologist's conclusions from the TPS. JMO

All we've heard comes from sources from the PI"s team, so we don't even know what the first pathologist ruling is on manner of death. The TPS only revealed cause of death. MOO

The first pathologist has many years experience, is highly trained, knowledge of the most advanced techniques/technologies, has good eye sight, steady hands, and so on. MOO

:twocents:

 

[Satchie]

The first doctor did the autopsies at the same time, I mean one after the other. If he decided both were murdered after performing each autopsy, why only fill in the form and only sign off on honey? Why wait to sign off on Barry? I believe that honeys injuries and blood led him to conclude she was murdered. But Barry had marks from wrist bindings just like her, and presumably he also ligature marks around his neck, and internal injuries consistent with being strangled by something other than a belt. The second coroner found the same things and concluded murder, seemingly almost immediately. Yet the first doctor decided to wait 20 days? Given that he is highly trained, given that he is a professional, and given that it is such a high profile case, Stalling or putting it off makes no sense to me.

I don't think it's procrastination. Sometimes determining manner of death takes months
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/woman-called-family-abducted-killed-article-1.3458303, or years https://globalnews.ca/news/4053930/calgary-2014-death-declared-homicide/

The manner of death ruling isn't just a medical decision, it means reconstructing the sequence of events that lead to the death. That usually requires non-medical evidence. The more corroborating evidence, the better.

It's true, no one ever suggested the possibility that Honey murdered Barry and then killed herself. Probably just based on their relative size and strength, that was ruled out immediately.

 

[Jennifer17]

I don't think it's procrastination. Sometimes determining manner of death takes months
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/woman-called-family-abducted-killed-article-1.3458303, or years https://globalnews.ca/news/4053930/calgary-2014-death-declared-homicide/

The manner of death ruling isn't just a medical decision, it means reconstructing the sequence of events that lead to the death. That usually requires non-medical evidence. The more corroborating evidence, the better.

It's true, no one ever suggested the possibility that Honey murdered Barry and then killed herself. Probably just based on their relative size and strength, that was ruled out immediately.

BBM. That is why there is an inquest. A Coroner outside of the police and any other self interested bodies is appointed to sift through the facts, with all the investigations and all the medical reports.

 

[deugirtni]

....How is it possible for the PI's team to conclude mm right after their hired pathologist carrying out the second set of autopsies, that very same day, Dec. 20th (one day before the funeral), without having any other forensic evidence of the crime scene(s)? Without having set foot inside the home and viewed the crime scene. Without having reviewed any surveillance videos, audio, alarm system, etc. Nor having any access to the boxes and boxes of evidence, that the TPS homicide and forensic team, professionally collected during the next 6 weeks?

This doesn't make sense to me, to conclude mm only based on "markings" that could have been self-inflicted. JMHO

"Is it possible that TPS could have been thinking the same thing all along, but wanting to investigate freely, without the murderer(s) knowing that it was suspected to be anyone other than BS?"

Most definitely, it's possible, but then why not include Barry's name in all the search warrants, etc., which they applied for not once but on various different dates, and all only contain Honey's name?

Perhaps there is a good reason for that, but for the time being, it doesn't make any sense to me. JMHO

If when Chiasson/Pathologist#2 examined the bodies, he could tell that:

i)death occurred via a certain type/size/shape/texture/method of 'ligature neck compression', and

ii)the markings on the body which corresponded to that cause of death by 'ligature neck compression' may not have matched photos of how the bodies had been found hanging by leather belts, or their size/shape/texture/whatever, or

iii)two sets of markings in the neck area may have been discovered, perhaps one explained by the belts the bodies were found hanging with, and perhaps another set of markings which were left by a different type of ligature than the belts, or at a different angle, or whatever, which were believed to be more in line with the 'ligature neck compression' which caused the deaths;

then that could explain how/why Chiasson/pathologist#2 and 'all of them collectively' ("Present with Chiasson were three private investigators — Tom Klatt, Ray Zarb and Mike Davis — all former members of the Toronto Police homicide squad."), were immediately able to come to an MM conclusion. (It would be an impossibility for Barry to have strangled himself to death and then after death, staged himself to appear to have died by hanging; as well, if Barry did this, they would have had to have found at the scene the wrist ropes used to cause the wrist abrasions (and possibly the ligature used on the necks which caused their deaths, if not caused by the belt hanging)

“Photographs of both the scene and the autopsy, certain things struck all of them collectively and lead them to the conclusion that it was a double homicide,”

"In Chiasson’s examination, it was determined that they were likely not strangled with the belts. Instead, they were strangled with some other type of ligature, and the belts were then put around their necks."

"The deduction Chiasson and the private detectives made was that their wrists had been bound prior to death."

"Photos of the scene did not reveal any ropes or ties that could be responsible for the abrasions."

"The skin was missing from around Sherman’s wrists, ...The same had been done to Honey Sherman’s wrists.
Why? Chiasson wondered. The answer, provided to Chiasson by the first pathologist, and other pieces of information learned that day last December eventually changed the police theory on the Sherman deaths from murder-suicide to double homicide."

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada...d-from-murder-suicide-to-double-homicide.html

 

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[ldlager]

If when Chiasson/Pathologist#2 examined the bodies, he could tell that:

i)death occurred via a certain type/size/shape/texture/method of 'ligature neck compression',and

ii)the markings on the body which corresponded to that cause of death by 'ligature neck compression' may not have matched photos of how the bodies had been found hanging by leather belts, or their size/shape/texture/whatever, or

iii)two sets of markings in the neck area may have been discovered, perhaps one explained by the belts the bodies were found hanging with, and perhaps another set of markings which were left by a different type of ligature than the belts, or at a different angle, or whatever, which were believed to be more in line with the 'ligature neck compression' which caused the deaths;

then that could explain how/why Chiasson/pathologist#2 and 'all of them collectively' ("Present with Chiasson were three private investigators — Tom Klatt, Ray Zarb and Mike Davis — all former members of the Toronto Police homicide squad."), were immediately able to come to an MM conclusion. (It would be an impossibility for Barry to have strangled himself to death and then after death, staged himself to appear to have died by hanging; as well, if Barry did this, they would have had to have found at the scene the wrist ropes used to cause the wrist abrasions (and possibly the ligature used on the necks which caused their deaths, if not caused by the belt hanging)

“Photographs of both the scene and the autopsy, certain things struck all of them collectively and lead them to the conclusion that it was a double homicide,”

"In Chiasson’s examination, it was determined that they were likely not strangled with the belts. Instead, they were strangled with some other type of ligature, and the belts were then put around their necks."

"The deduction Chiasson and the private detectives made was that their wrists had been bound prior to death."

"Photos of the scene did not reveal any ropes or ties that could be responsible for the abrasions."

"The skin was missing from around Sherman’s wrists, ...The same had been done to Honey Sherman’s wrists.
Why? Chiasson wondered. The answer, provided to Chiasson by the first pathologist, and other pieces of information learned that day last December eventually changed the police theory on the Sherman deaths from murder-suicide to double homicide."

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada...d-from-murder-suicide-to-double-homicide.html

RBBM - This is THE key phrase IMO. IF the Star report is accurate, the 2nd pathologist's findings THAT DAY eventually changed LE's theory from MS to MM. If this statement is accurate, the 2nd pathologist found something that the first didn't.

 

[deugirtni]

RBBM - This is THE key phrase IMO. IF the Star report is accurate, the 2nd pathologist's findings THAT DAY eventually changed LE's theory from MS to MM. If this statement is accurate, the 2nd pathologist found something that the first didn't.

Or.. the first pathologist did indeed find whatever, but the importance of said discovery wasn't recognized and/or evaluated as far as what the possible implications could mean as a result. Could have been under their noses all along, but nobody was putting two and two together, until they got the perhaps more experienced players on the private team? ie, pathologist#1 had been a pathologist for under 10 years at the time of autopsy, while Chiasson has had over 30 years of experience.

 

[WINDSOR]

Since it does appear both pathologists and the TPS are in agreement on the double murder scenario, it is a moot point as to who missed what, or who was wrong, or who did a better job, or who was more competent, among the pathologists.

It is quite common in medical science for two individuals to look at the same symptoms/situations and come up with different initial diagnosis and conclusions. Who has not had a doctor tell them, "I think it is this, but it might be that". 'The goal is always to get it right in the end'.

 

[Kerry Winter]

simply put, the money the shermans gave to charities, politicians, etc., was not done out of the goodness of their hearts. It was done to 1) reap tax benefits and 2) buy political favours that would be beneficial to them and their business. The heirs of the sherman estate, presumably the family, would definitely be aware that money can indeed be used to get what you want, in this case, dignity after death.

yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[deugirtni]

I don't think it's procrastination. Sometimes determining manner of death takes months
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/woman-called-family-abducted-killed-article-1.3458303, or years https://globalnews.ca/news/4053930/calgary-2014-death-declared-homicide/

The manner of death ruling isn't just a medical decision, it means reconstructing the sequence of events that lead to the death. That usually requires non-medical evidence. The more corroborating evidence, the better.

It's true, no one ever suggested the possibility that Honey murdered Barry and then killed herself. Probably just based on their relative size and strength, that was ruled out immediately.

While nobody ever suggested the possibility that Honey murdered Barry and then killed herself, it seems that initially at least, they (LE) were actually considering double suicide.

December 15, 2017 (the same day the bodies were found)
Global News
CDH = Constable David Hopkinson, TPS
Reporter = various
Transcribed by deugirtni, may not be 100%, but it’s very close


Reporter: Who's doing the investigation right now? (2:37)

CDH: 33 Division detectives are, are inside and consulting with the um, the coroner and the pathologist.
Reporter: So it's not Homicide; is it the Homicide unit?
CDH: Homicide investigators? No. Homicide has not been called in. This is just a suspicious death. Uh, we are only investigating that as such right now. If, if it is determined to be a homicide, then our investigators from Homicide will come in.

Reporter: Are they standing by right now, or are they...

CDH: Uhh, th.. they're.. they collaborate on *all* such investigations, they're uh given calls, but uh, they have not been called in to this point.


https://globalnews.ca/news/3919693/barry-and-honey-sherman-apotex/

Also December 15[SUP]th [/SUP]from City News:

Reporter City News: Homicide detectives were at the scene as well, but only to assist officers in their investigation. And while they wouldn’t call either death a murder, Homicide detective Brandon Price *did* try to ease the fears of neighbours, that a killer may be on the loose:

Detective Brandon Price at 1:24: I can say that at this point uh in the investigation, though it is very early, um we uh are *not* currently uh seeking or uh looking for an outstanding suspect.

http://toronto.citynews.ca/video/iframe/593482582001/SyxzIeNcgb/5682715102001?auto_play_switch=false

 

[deugirtni]

Since it does appear both pathologists and the TPS are in agreement on the double murder scenario, it is a moot point as to who missed what, or who was wrong, or who did a better job, or who was more competent, among the pathologists.

It is quite common in medical science for two individuals to look at the same symptoms/situations and come up with different initial diagnosis and conclusions. Who has not had a doctor tell them, "I think it is this, but it might be that". 'The goal is always to get it right in the end'.

Absolutely, however, in this case, some people believe that TPS is only giving lip service, and do not actually *believe* that LE believes it was a double murder.

 

[Kerry Winter]

Kerry, as you know, you and I are on the same page. But do you think the truth will ever come out? Its been my experience, having followed "true crime" for many years, that the masses are content to believe far fetched scenarios over what seems to be the obvious solution. In this case, with the wealth, political connections and corporate battles, I think people are more likely to believe that this was an act of corporate treachery rather than a murder suicide. I also feel that any books that might be written on the subject will lean more on those kinds of theories just because it makes a better story.

In your opinion, do you think the truth will ever come out and be accepted as fact?

I agree that we’re on the same page. I believe quite a few people on WS’s believe there’s a coverup.
The truth will come out....be patient. A fine US mag will write the story.