OH - Pike County: 8 people from one family dead as police hunt for killer(s) #32

[Dudly]

Agree, and they will probably stay that way until the case is solved and the trial is over (if it ever gets to that). We've discussed this before in relation to other cases where the news media and outsiders question the decisions of prosecutors & LE.

Questions about revealing evidence to the public has been relevant in cases where prosecutors/ME's rule cases as accidental or suicide when they were, in fact, homicide. An example I quoted was the Rebecca Zahau case, where her death was ruled suicide, but was later ruled homicide at the hand of her brother in law.

LE revealed some evidence in that case, but kept some details and evidence hidden. The ruling was questioned by the family and public. When the family gained access to all the evidence files and found many omitted details actually indicated homicide, it was very awkward for LE.

DeWine, et al seem intent on keeping as many details as possible from the public in the Rhoden cases. While they claim it's to enable them to rule out false confessions, a good deal of the withheld info isn't really relevant to making a case if they arrest the killers. It seems most likely, JMO, that the info is withheld because they don't want to be second guessed on their investigation. They don't want outside experts questioning their assumptions and conclusions.

JMO, at this point, it's likely the killers will never be arrested and even the most elementary details of the murders won't be revealed, outside of what we may eventually hear from family and witnesses. Hopefully, the family and others will some day no longer feel threatened and will reveal any details they know to the public.

I have thought this will be the case for a long time now. No one can contradict or second guess the investigation if no one knows anything about what LE and BCI has done or found. As I said before, if it can happen there it can happen anywhere...

 

[Betty P]

http://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/...BCI/Pike-County-Final-Autopsies-REDACTED.aspx

I’ve re-read it again. The only victim I see a fresh contusion on is CRjr, noted to the left elbow and left forearm.

Am I missing something? The redaction is significant and even redacts terms that are not abnormal.

Agree, it must be in the redacted portions. CR2 is the only one I saw as well, unless there's something in the preliminary ARs. This news item quoting Dr Lakshmi is from the time the preliminary reports were released, April 26, 2016

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coroner-most-ohio-victims-shot-many-times-some-bruised/

COLUMBUS, Ohio --Seven of eight relatives who were killed in their southern Ohio homes Friday had been shot multiple times, including one who was shot nine times, according to autopsy results released Tuesday.

Some also had bruising, which matched a report from a 911 caller who said two appeared to have been beaten up.

BBM

From an article after the redacted Final AR's were released

The autopsy report for Christopher Rhoden, Sr., said he was shot in the head, torso and extremities. The report does not specify if he was shot in the arms or the legs or both. It does indicate there were fractures to his skull and vertebra, but what that means is not entirely clear. Gary Rhoden's autopsy report also indicates his skull was fractured.

The Pike County Medical Examiner said the eight victims — all part of the Rhoden family — died from gunshot wounds. One victim suffered nine gunshot wounds, and some victims showed soft tissue bruising, indicating that they fought their killer or killers, according to the medical examiner.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ohio-massacre-victims-showed-signs-struggle-autopsy-n562651

BBM

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/ne...ses-redacted-rhoden-autopsy-reports/90912132/

We really need to set up profiles for each victim & their crime scene and post the known information. Want to volunteer? If enough people volunteer, we can divide up the victims and crime scenes and work on a few at a time.

I kind of like the format this person used to catalogue the EAR/ONS cases

http://www.coldcase-earons.com/01.php

 

[Betty P]

I have thought this will be the case for a long time now. No one can contradict or second guess the investigation if no one knows anything about what LE and BCI has done or found. As I said before, if it can happen there it can happen anywhere...

IANAL, but an option the surviving family members could eventually pursue is hiring a good attorney to file a civil lawsuit against the Wagner family, specifically JW, charging them with wrongful death. It worked in the case of Rebecca Zahau, in that if compelled LE to release their files and testify under oath in depositions. Good way to finally learn the details. It's civil, not criminal, but it's a way to break open a case and get outside experts to review it.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Please read my theory and critique!

Those who have surmised that JW was deceitful saying that he retrieved SW at estimated 10:30 pm are correct. JW had to include that lie as part of his statement as to his whereabouts that night. As we know Chelsea dropped off BR and departed at approximately the same time. JW knew Chelsea would mention in her statement that he was already there when she departed.He had to casually mention this in his timeline to pepetrate his deception as to his true purpose that night. If anyone knew the players roles that night he would. He also knew he would be one of the last witnesses pior to the Rhoden slaughter.

I believe 'why' he was there had nothing to do with picking up SW because HR had dropped her off and he had her that week. The fib was to provide coverage for the true mission as why he was at ground zero. It is conjecture as to what type of business placed him there. I believe that text to JM could have been a secret handshake that he was heading back to UHC. Perhaps GR or CRsr had been conned that some transaction was to happen. But they were tricked and the expected arrival was but a cover for the (just my theory) planned orchestrated robbery.

I do do not believe JM knew there was a slaughter of the Rhoden's planned. I think he could have been involved a plan to rob CRsr and he had a small roll to play.

But there was much more planned for UHC and it involved leaving no adults alive.

What was the business at hand and why the slaughter? I do not know?I do not even have a hunch what evil savagery could even carry out these murders.

But it I do believe that JW was at the UHC CS at 10:30 pm and he returned later to finish what was started.

I am not accusing any one else. There were people duped but how the thing was supposed to go down is beyond my abilities.

Sheesh I posted to the wrong thread. Thanks to who ever :beamup: me back to the correct thread #32. :blushing: I really would never have been a success in a college marching band! :laughing:

I posted then looked the new s/w is awesome. Thanks Trisha :clap:
:cow:

That is probably why the "laser focus" since Kendra R was with HR that day she would have known if JW had little S or not. And you can be sure she told LE whether JW had her or was supposed to pick her up at 10:30 PM that night.


The 10:30 PM time he named was so odd. For one thing it is late to be picking up a child. Second it is an odd time overall, why not say about 10 or around 11? Why be so specific and name an exact time? Then it exactly coincided with what time Chel R said she left FR's right down the road. This is one of the things that makes me so suspicious of AW's "correction".

Did JW throw that out there to LE because he thought Chel R saw him that night and thought she would mention seeing him? Did he later find out that she didn't mention it and hence the "correction"?


JMO

 

[MittenScarpetta]

Agree, it must be in the redacted portions. CR2 is the only one I saw as well, unless there's something in the preliminary ARs. This news item quoting Dr Lakshmi is from the time the preliminary reports were released, April 26, 2016

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coroner-most-ohio-victims-shot-many-times-some-bruised/



BBM

From an article after the redacted Final AR's were released





https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ohio-massacre-victims-showed-signs-struggle-autopsy-n562651

BBM

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/ne...ses-redacted-rhoden-autopsy-reports/90912132/

We really need to set up profiles for each victim & their crime scene and post the known information. Want to volunteer? If enough people volunteer, we can divide up the victims and crime scenes and work on a few at a time.

I kind of like the format this person used to catalogue the EAR/ONS cases

http://www.coldcase-earons.com/01.php

I’ll help. Also, I’ll reply to this later[emoji4] BUT reread CR1s autopsy report-he was only shot in one extremity (gunshot wounds to the head torso, and extremity )The media twisted that into plural “extremities”

 

[MittenScarpetta]

That is probably why the "laser focus" since Kendra R was with HR that day she would have known if JW had little S or not. And you can be sure she told LE whether JW had her or was supposed to pick her up at 10:30 PM that night.


The 10:30 PM time he named was so odd. For one thing it is late to be picking up a child. Second it is an odd time overall, why not say about 10 or around 11? Why be so specific and name an exact time? Then it exactly coincided with what time Chel R said she left FR's right down the road. This is one of the things that makes me so suspicious of AW's "correction".

Did JW throw that out there to LE because he thought Chel R saw him that night and thought she would mention seeing him? Did he later find out that she didn't mention it and hence the "correction"?


JMO

One of KR2’s first interviews that I reread the other day, she also stated that S had went to JW the week prior. It’s the super long one, Death in the Foothills maybe?

 

[RAISINISBACK]

This is the thing though- in order to get a warrant, the information on the warrant has to be be factual and truth.

LE can lie all they want in press conferences, interviews, statements, etc but they CANNOT lie on a warrant.

If they lie on a warrant, any evidence obtained from that warrant is thrown out AND in JM’s case, if they lied on the warrant for the truck, he could probably own the state of Ohio for defamation, unjust pretenses, loss of wages, pain and suffering etc via a civil lawsuit.

I still believe there was something that lead them to that truck.

But I do agree, the original owner should have been sought out, polygraphed, investigated.

I also believe that truck should have been confiscated and processed.

Here is the thing about that warrant. LE cannot lie on a warrant. But that warrant said the truck was used in a homicide. It never said specifically it was the murder of the R's. Just the commission of a homicide. Could have been any homicide anywhere at any time. The specific homicide they referred to could have been a murder 15 years ago involving a hit and run fatality in Seattle, Washington for all we know. Ergo when they said the commission of a homicide they would not have been lying, as that would be factually correct.

JMO

 

[MizStery]

You bet your sweet life JW wished his mama were theré to know what to do. I do not believe JW can think on his feet and Chelsea R witnessing his presence meant he would have to go off script much to his detriment. It is a miracle 'that problem at the daycare' set the entire timeline on a different trajectory than planned.

That is probably why the "laser focus" since Kendra R was with HR that day she would have known if JW had little S or not. And you can be sure she told LE whether JW had her or was supposed to pick her up at 10:30 PM that night.


The 10:30 PM time he named was so odd. For one thing it is late to be picking up a child. Second it is an odd time overall, why not say about 10 or around 11? Why be so specific and name an exact time? Then it exactly coincided with what time Chel R said she left FR's right down the road. This is one of the things that makes me so suspicious of AW's "correction".

Did JW throw that out there to LE because he thought Chel R saw him that night and thought she would mention seeing him? Did he later find out that she didn't mention it and hence the "correction"?


JMO

:cow:

The link below I think has been posted many times but I thought I would include it for any who may have missed it & want to check records.
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[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText-Semibold]http://www.pikecountycourt.org/search.php


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[RAISINISBACK]

One of KR2’s first interviews that I reread the other day, she also stated that S had went to JW the week prior. It’s the super long one, Death in the Foothills maybe?

I think he had S already but threw that in that first interview in case Chel R mentioned she saw him that night, And when he realized she didn't since LE said nothing to him about it, he and AW realized he made a mistake and "corrected" it in a later interview and raised a fuss with the news media implying they misquoted him and forced the newspaper to print a "correction" maybe by having an attorney give them a call

 

[MittenScarpetta]

I think he had S already but threw that in that first interview in case Chel R mentioned she saw him that night, And when he realized she didn't since LE said nothing to him about it, he and AW realized he made a mistake and "corrected" it in a later interview and raised a fuss with the news media implying they misquoted him and forced the newspaper to print a "correction" maybe by having an attorney give them a call

I agree. I was just pointing out that before the “correction” was made, Kendra stated S had been with JW since the week prior to the murders.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

Here is the thing about that warrant. LE cannot lie on a warrant. But that warrant said the truck was used in a homicide. It never said specifically it was the murder of the R's. Just the commission of a homicide. Could have been any homicide anywhere at any time. The specific homicide they referred to could have been a murder 15 years ago involving a hit and run fatality in Seattle, Washington for all we know. Ergo when they said the commission of a homicide they would not have been lying, as that would be factually correct.

JMO

Crazy they’d be able to get a warrant without specifying a date of or around.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

You bet your sweet life JW wished his mama were theré to know what to do. I do not believe JW can think on his feet and Chelsea R witnessing his presence meant he would have to go off script much to his detriment. It is a miracle 'that problem at the daycare' set the entire timeline on a different trajectory than planned.




:cow:

The link below I think has been posted many times but I thought I would include it for any who may have missed it & want to check records.
[FONT=.SF UI Text]
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[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText-Semibold]http://www.pikecountycourt.org/search.php


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I wonder if he was there when DR got home from work...

 

[rsd1200]

If LE knew the red truck was involved in the murders, why didn't they question that owner and search the truck back then? That owner should have been examined very closely - cell phone records, polygraph, etc. Why did LE wait for over a year to investigate JM, when he didn't own it during the murders? JMO, the red truck was just an excuse to try to build a case against JM, to get him and the other Manleys before the Grand Jury.

JM's arrest and the GJ testimony are the only incidents that finally persuaded LM to stop talking to the news media. That may also have been a reason. Prosecutor Junk seems to have a habit of using GJ proceedings to silence people and make cases disappear or go cold.

For some reason, they've been interested in him since the git go. In the interview I linked earlier, about the argument with the deputies, we don't know what that was about, or what was said. The day they found the bodies, though, we see them looking into JM's truck, like they're very interested, then they take the truck. They let his son, and BJM, take their vehicles, but not JM. It may be a simple explanation. Idk.

They were all interviewed there at the scene. BJM says she doesn't remember how JM came to be at the scene. At some point, one of them takes off walking up the road. BJM goes into the homes, retrieving infants, JM seems to already know the outcome. BJM's timeline didn't add up either, in the beginning. It didn't add up though, because she was not wanting to tell them the real reason why she was there, is my theory (which was to help with the "gardening"). She may have even done that before going into CR1's trailer, making her timeline being off, even greater. At one point, LM says she came and got him, and his boy, which infers she left the scene (before, or after she called LE?).

LM is the one who told us that JM texted JW at 2:00 am and AM texted DR at 1:00 am. LM talking, this whole time, has not helped the Ms at all. We may have gleaned some info from him, but he's a defense attorney's nightmare, and I think they've finally gotten him to understand and be quiet. JM on the other hand has never spoken publicly (smart).

The red truck may be connected to someone they are interested in, but, it had been kept hidden away, and all of a sudden it pops up, and who ends up with it? JM. JM has not been named a suspect but he has been named a witness. A witness to what?

 

[rsd1200]

This is the thing though- in order to get a warrant, the information on the warrant has to be be factual and truth.

LE can lie all they want in press conferences, interviews, statements, etc but they CANNOT lie on a warrant.

If they lie on a warrant, any evidence obtained from that warrant is thrown out AND in JM’s case, if they lied on the warrant for the truck, he could probably own the state of Ohio for defamation, unjust pretenses, loss of wages, pain and suffering etc via a civil lawsuit.

I still believe there was something that lead them to that truck.

But I do agree, the original owner should have been sought out, polygraphed, investigated.

I also believe that truck should have been confiscated and processed.

BBM
We don't know that they haven't been. Maybe that's why they've put the tracker on JM. There have been a lot of interviews and searches done, but we only know of a couple three. If I'd been interviewed, and my home searched, I'd not speak up about it, and let it be known, in the public, or ever be interviewed by the press. They can't force folks to take a poly, and they're inadmissible in court, in Ohio, unless all parties agree to their use (I'd never take one, guilty or innocent).

 

[MittenScarpetta]

I've been wondering about the fight that OPs were discussing. If it's the one where the kids came out and the Rs met them with firearms and ball bats, I don't think that LE was called. I've always heard that the young people left, but blustered about it on FB.

The one thing that got me confused at one point, about cops being called, was the April 25 interview with LM. At :58 he's talking about, they (LE) let his daughter, and his grandson, take their vehicles, then he goes directly into; Saturday evening we had a big conflict up here... The video was released, in an article, on Monday, April the 25th. I am almost positive that he's talking about a big conflict, with the deputies, and such, on the Saturday evening after the murders, because of the way he went from his family's vehicles, into the conflict with the deputies. I feel it was about JM's vehicle, too. Just thought I'd toss it out there.

https://globalnews.ca/video/2660827/father-of-ohio-shooting-victim-says-suspect-knew-rhoden-family

I have no doubts it a conflict between the M’s and LE on Saturday following the murders. He was highly upset his boys truck was kept for false tags.

I believe LM knows a lot and has dropped lots of read between the line hints in all of his interviews, without putting names out there.

 

[MizStery]

<snip>

The red truck may be connected to someone they are interested in, but, it had been kept hidden away, and all of a sudden it pops up, and who ends up with it? JM. JM has not been named a suspect but he has been named a witness. A witness to what?

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[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText-Semibold]James Manley had been considered a witness in the case because he discovered his sister&#8217;s dead body in her trailer.[/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText-Semibold]https://www.mydaytondailynews.com/n...earing-the-scabs-off/DRBSBqKvEMPKFkRjaf4njK/o
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The best explaination I have read is the one quoted above from the My Dayton Daily News.
:cow:[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[rsd1200]

Agree, it must be in the redacted portions. CR2 is the only one I saw as well, unless there's something in the preliminary ARs. This news item quoting Dr Lakshmi is from the time the preliminary reports were released, April 26, 2016

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coroner-most-ohio-victims-shot-many-times-some-bruised/



BBM

From an article after the redacted Final AR's were released





https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ohio-massacre-victims-showed-signs-struggle-autopsy-n562651

BBM

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/ne...ses-redacted-rhoden-autopsy-reports/90912132/

We really need to set up profiles for each victim & their crime scene and post the known information. Want to volunteer? If enough people volunteer, we can divide up the victims and crime scenes and work on a few at a time.

I kind of like the format this person used to catalogue the EAR/ONS cases

http://www.coldcase-earons.com/01.php

I'm not real clear on what you're wanting to do, but I am willing to help. :lookingitup:

 

[MittenScarpetta]

BBM
We don't know that they haven't been. Maybe that's why they've put the tracker on JM. There have been a lot of interviews and searches done, but we only know of a couple three. If I'd been interviewed, and my home searched, I'd not speak up about it, and let it be known, in the public, or ever be interviewed by the press. They can't force folks to take a poly, and they're inadmissible in court, in Ohio, unless all parties agree to their use (I'd never take one, guilty or innocent).

I wouldn’t agree to a poly either. There’s too many false positives and when LE conducts them, they use their own poly examiner which is a conflict of interest.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

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The best explaination I have read is the one quoted above from the My Dayton Daily News.
:cow:[/FONT][/FONT]

The article is no longer found at that link

 

[rsd1200]

I have no doubts it a conflict between the M&#8217;s and LE on Saturday following the murders. He was highly upset his boys truck was kept for false tags.

I believe LM knows a lot and has dropped lots of read between the line hints in all of his interviews, without putting names out there.

I agree, but, some of the stuff he's dropped, has not helped his family. It has made them look suspicious. His wording may not be the same as the wording they used in their interviews and thus, it causes them to be looked at harder. Honestly, that truck would have been the least of my worries.