Jahi McMath is Taken off Life Support Discussion

[Byte]

I've always had trouble dealing with this type of case because my viewpoint is harsh. I don't think she was alive after her brain died, I also have trouble thinking that even if she somehow was able to respond to commands ever so slightly that she was alive. Coincidences happen and its impossible to know if those videos took weeks to get a convenient reaction that would be normal for a brain-dead patient in response to natural stimuli or nerve ticks. I'd like to think that she was at peace years ago, and now just a slight part has caught up to her.

God forbid a situation like this or the Terri Schiavo case happen to me or anyone I know but I'd hope that no one would fight for my life even after it ended. I would never want my family to have to grieve twice.

 

[YESorNO]

Mother of Jahi McMath fights to bury her daughter in Bay Area

"SAN FRANCISCO - The mother of Jahi McMath fought for more than four years to keep her daughter alive, now she is fighting to bury the girl.

McMath, a 17-year-old, former Oakland girl at the center of the medical and religious debate over brain death, was pronounced dead in New Jersey on June 22 from excessive bleeding and liver failure after an operation to treat an intestinal issue. A death certificate was issued that same day.

McMath had previously been declared brain dead after suffering complications during surgery at Children's Hospital in Oakland to remove her tonsils in December 2013. Alameda County issued a death certificate following the medical declaration.

Now, with two death certificates, McMath’s mother, Nailah Winkfield, is entangled in a legal and bureaucratic dispute about which one accurately portrays the circumstances and the exact date of McMath’s death. Winkfield wants the New Jersey certificate honored because she never believed her daughter died in Oakland.

Until the dispute is resolved, a burial permit can’t be issued, said her attorney Chris Dolan...."

Mother of Jahi McMath fights to bury her daughter in Bay Area
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[YESorNO]

Jahi McMath to be buried in Hayward while fight over her death continues

"...Two lawsuits over the teen’s death are ongoing: a federal civil rights case to nullify her original 2013 death certificate and replace it with a new one issued June 22, and a malpractice case against Children’s Hospital Oakland over a tonsillectomy that her family said was done improperly....

The news conference started late because Dolan was still wrangling with the Alameda County coroner’s office, which he said had denied Jahi’s family a permit to bury the girl. A spokesman from the coroner’s office disputed that account, saying no one had tried to step in the way of the burial.

Jahi’s body is in a funeral home and will be laid to rest in Mount Eden Cemetery on Friday...."

https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/arti...Math-gets-approval-to-bury-their-13047928.php
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[YESorNO]

Report: Jahi McMath’s Brain Showed Some Signs Of Improvement After Brain Death, Doctors Say (with clip)

July 3, 2018

"...Doctors say there were clinical signs she incrementally improved over the five-year span, crossing the line between brain dead and a “minimally conscious state.”...

Several specialists concurred after neurological tests, and a coroner signed a death certificate..."

Report: Jahi McMath's Brain Showed Some Signs Of Improvement After Brain Death, Doctors Say
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[Doghairrules]

Mother of Jahi McMath fights to bury her daughter in Bay Area

"SAN FRANCISCO - The mother of Jahi McMath fought for more than four years to keep her daughter alive, now she is fighting to bury the girl.

McMath, a 17-year-old, former Oakland girl at the center of the medical and religious debate over brain death, was pronounced dead in New Jersey on June 22 from excessive bleeding and liver failure after an operation to treat an intestinal issue. A death certificate was issued that same day.

McMath had previously been declared brain dead after suffering complications during surgery at Children's Hospital in Oakland to remove her tonsils in December 2013. Alameda County issued a death certificate following the medical declaration.

Now, with two death certificates, McMath’s mother, Nailah Winkfield, is entangled in a legal and bureaucratic dispute about which one accurately portrays the circumstances and the exact date of McMath’s death. Winkfield wants the New Jersey certificate honored because she never believed her daughter died in Oakland.

Until the dispute is resolved, a burial permit can’t be issued, said her attorney Chris Dolan...."

Mother of Jahi McMath fights to bury her daughter in Bay Area
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Good lord. This is never going to end.

Also, I have serious questions about them referring to her as 17 years old.

 

[Doghairrules]

Report: Jahi McMath’s Brain Showed Some Signs Of Improvement After Brain Death, Doctors Say (with clip)

July 3, 2018

"...Doctors say there were clinical signs she incrementally improved over the five-year span, crossing the line between brain dead and a “minimally conscious state.”...

Several specialists concurred after neurological tests, and a coroner signed a death certificate..."

Report: Jahi McMath's Brain Showed Some Signs Of Improvement After Brain Death, Doctors Say
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Well, I’ll be d*mned. I stand corrected. Apologies to her mom.

But just to be clear, I’d still want my own family to let me go.

 

[jjenny]

Maybe because this time her heart stopped? It was said she had internal bleeding.

It's funny, just last week I read up on the case, looking for news ....

Yes, sounds like her heart stopped beating. It's extremely challenging to keep a brain dead (or severely brain damaged) person on life support. Sooner or later heart will stop beating despite being on a ventilator.

 

[jjenny]

She must have had some cerebellum tissue still somewhat functional. The cerebellum (lower brain) is responsible for involuntary processes, breathing is one, and all the bodily functions that we cannot decide to stop by a conscious thought and the cerebrum is who we are and it controls the functions that we choose to do.
When I was a young nurse, before life support machines (outside of the operating theatre), we nursed people who were in a coma, for months and months, but whose brains were not so damaged that they could not breathe.

If you are talking about Jahi, she couldn't breathe on her own. She was on a ventilator. In fact inability to breathe is one of the criteria to be declared brain dead.

 

[DakotaMayi]

I've always had trouble dealing with this type of case because my viewpoint is harsh. I don't think she was alive after her brain died, I also have trouble thinking that even if she somehow was able to respond to commands ever so slightly that she was alive. Coincidences happen and its impossible to know if those videos took weeks to get a convenient reaction that would be normal for a brain-dead patient in response to natural stimuli or nerve ticks. I'd like to think that she was at peace years ago, and now just a slight part has caught up to her.

God forbid a situation like this or the Terri Schiavo case happen to me or anyone I know but I'd hope that no one would fight for my life even after it ended. I would never want my family to have to grieve twice.

I don't know where I stand on Jahi's case specifically... I don't know enough about it and it seems that everyone who does is divided. But, I agree with your last statement entirely. I wouldn't want to be fought for in that situation either. If I am in such a state, I wouldn't want to be made to go on.

 

[tinkerbella]

I followed this case when it first happened but with few updates over the past couple years, I didn't follow as closely. I know this isn't too important in the scheme of things, but I'm curious to know who or how the bill will be paid for the surgery she just underwent. I remember after the death certificate was issued originally she was no longer able to receive health insurance. The reason why she even went across the country was that a place donated a room in their facility for her to receive care because she was no longer eligible for insurance. I would like to add more to this discussion but can't since I no longer have links to back it up.

 

[jjenny]

In New Jersey she wasn't considered dead, because in New Jersey there is a religious exception for those religions that don't believe that brain death equals death. So family was able to obtain medicaid.
"The state's Medicaid program and donations have also contributed to the girl's care."
Jahi McMath, girl at center of debate over brain death, dies, mother says

 

[Jennifer17]

If you are talking about Jahi, she couldn't breathe on her own. She was on a ventilator. In fact inability to breathe is one of the criteria to be declared brain dead.

I am aware of that.

 

[nrdsb4]

Despite being a nurse, Jahi's mother admits that she thought that a tracheostomy and other treatment and Jahi would wake up, which seems overly hopeful when she'd been told that her daughter was brain dead.

Jahi's mother was most certainly NOT a nurse. Jahi's grandmother said on camera that she was an RN, but she lied. She was an LVN (some states call them LPNs), which requires less education, comes with a more limited scope than RNs or advanced practice nurses, and usually are limited with regard to which areas they work. In other words, Grandma knew very little about pediatric ICU care.

 

[MyBelle]

The thing is you just can't keep changing the parameters of what defines death to suit you. I remember this case well and I further remember everyone insisting she was dead. And everyone insisting she was dead was expounding on just how quickly her body would rot and how her brain would leak our her nasal cavities etc if she was dead regardless of the equipment she was on. I remember thinking, "Well, I guess we'll see if they were right."

Well they were wrong. You can not keep a corpse going for years. If you want to rely on science then do. But you can't rely on baloney instead. Whether she was dead or not has absolutely no bearing on how her parents behaved and whether or not it was appropriate to keep her on machines for years etc. She was either dead or she wasn't. And medically the dead have never been kept alive for years on machines. It defies all medical description of dead. Her body did not do what the medical authorities said it would do if she was dead or brain dead. Period. So I wish people would just own up to that already. They said the machines absolutely could not keep her going for long at all. They were wrong. So maybe, just maybe the doctors were wrong in their diagnosis. I think the fact that it took a full four years to for this happen shows someone was wrong.

And again that has no bearing on whether or not something things how her parents handled things. She was either dead or not. She wasn't. A piece of paper doesn't define death literally. That's like saying someone isn't dead either till they get a death certificate.

BBM. Well said. In reality, there is no machine which can keep the heart pumping indefinitely or keep the other organs functioning. Jahi suffered a catastrophic brain injury while in the care of the Hospital. My concern all along has been that the Hospital rushed to declare her brain dead in order to reduce their liability.

All the dire predictions that Jahi was a corpse and already rotting from the inside was pure spin on social media fueled by the Hospital's PR machine.

I look forward to seeing how this plays out in court.

JMO

RIP, Jahi.

 

[jjenny]

Considering there are quite a few examples of brain dead persons (especially young ones) being on life support for years and years, Jahi's case of being on life support isn't all that unusual. Not sure who was saying the body would rot, but as long as ventilator was on, the heart was still beating so the body wasn't an actual corpse. So it wasn't going to rot like the corpse would.

"Today, with ventilators, blood-pressure augmentation and hormones, the body of a brain-dead person could, in theory, be kept functioning for a long time, perhaps indefinitely, Greene-Chandos said. But with time, Greene-Chandos added, the body of a brain-dead person becomes increasingly difficult to maintain, and the tissue is at high risk for infection."
How Long Will A Brain-Dead Person's Body Keep Working? | HuffPost

 

[MyBelle]

Considering there are quite a few examples of brain dead persons (especially young ones) being on life support for years and years, Jahi's case of being on life support isn't all that unusual. Not sure who was saying the body would rot, but as long as ventilator was on, the heart was still beating so the body wasn't an actual corpse. So it wasn't going to rot like the corpse would.

"Today, with ventilators, blood-pressure augmentation and hormones, the body of a brain-dead person could, in theory, be kept functioning for a long time, perhaps indefinitely, Greene-Chandos said. But with time, Greene-Chandos added, the body of a brain-dead person becomes increasingly difficult to maintain, and the tissue is at high risk for infection."
How Long Will A Brain-Dead Person's Body Keep Working? | HuffPost

could you give a couple of examples of brain-dead children still on life support?

The rotting corpse description has been everywhere throughout this case.

 

[jjenny]

could you give a couple of examples of brain-dead children still on life support?

The rotting corpse description has been everywhere throughout this case.

The longest known case of a brain dead child surviving is 20 years. So Jahi's case is nowhere near the record. Again, rotting and decomposition isn't going to occur if the heart is still beating because of a ventilator and the blood is still flowing. But clearly Jahi's body condition didn't look normal, photos show a lot of bloating as far as I could tell.

"This case represents an example of long survival of brain death with a living body."
Long survival following bacterial meningitis-associated brain destruction. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[MyBelle]

The longest known case of a brain dead child surviving is 20 years. So Jahi's case is nowhere near the record. Again, rotting and decomposition isn't going to occur if the heart is still beating because of a ventilator and the blood is still flowing. But clearly Jahi's body condition didn't look normal, photos show a lot of bloating as far as I could tell.

"This case represents an example of long survival of brain death with a living body."
Long survival following bacterial meningitis-associated brain destruction. - PubMed - NCBI

Thanks. I think the difference is that Jahi's continued medical expenses were paid by taxpayers via Medicaid. Your link is to a paper written by physicians affiliated with a Catholic teaching hospital. iirc, several Catholic physicians were strongly supportive of the legal effort to oppose Jahi's California death certificate.

 

[jjenny]

Most brain dead persons don't last 20 years on life support. Twenty years is a record. Children normally can last longer than adults, but that doesn't mean you can expect 20 years out of every case.
In addition, 4 year old who lasted 20 years on life support was younger than Jahi when his brain died.
I don't think it has anything to do with Catholic hospital or not. It takes a lot of effort to maintain a brain dead individual on life support. They develop infections and other issues. So sooner or later heart will stop despite the ventilator.

 

[Jennifer17]

No doctor would have said her body would rot, if she was given 24/7 good nursing care. Being moved every three hours to avoid pressure sores. That is why may have been meant by lay people saying her body would rot.