Thailand - FOUND ALIVE - Officials Believe 12 Boys And Coach Trapped In Cave , 23 June 2018

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Gardener1850 said:
I don't know much about scuba diving either. But I think they will have to learn to kick and pull themselves. They will be fighting against a running current in the water. And some passages are so small the Navy Seals could not get through with their oxygen tanks on their backs. I think that there is a danger of one of the boys hitting jagged rocks and knocking their mask or equipment off under water. Which leads to panic and drowning if they can't get them out of the underwater tunnels and to a surface quickly. It would be better if they could drain enough water to have headroom in all the chambers. JMO.
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Yes I agree.

But won't they be tied to the diver in front and hold onto their belt or something and will be pulled by the diver, similar to how you'd rescue a person on the water surface, just get pulled along. That's how I picture it :confused:

I think the sheer length of the dive is a problem. In water the body tires quickly and uses a lot of nutrients, so exhaustion will set in. And they are not strong yet. Is there another dry spot between where they are and Chamber 3 base camp? Or just air pockets?
 
JDG said:
They don't know if there are any safe areas. Also, think about the lack of sanitation over a 4 month period, disease potential etc. Those waters are infested with dead animals and the water is black from pollution. Its a cave, not a swimming pool.

If we are to believe yesterdays news, the boys were being acclimatized to being in the water, given swim lessons and scuba gear to 'play' with.....I suspect they were trying to see if they had any potential for getting them out. Without food for 10 days, they are in a weakened state.....possibly a couple of days food will help but not replenish their strength. Cant imagine how they'll be if forced to stay there for 4 months. Also cannot imagine getting them through all that water, very narrow openings etc without them panicking. A full out panic could cost some of them their lives. Im not referring to 'nervousness' nor a 'panic attack' but a full blown panic. Remember, you don't which way is up, down or sideways in that black bottomless water. Wishing them well.
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Regarding the panic and not knowing which way is up, etc. They're not going to be doing it alone. They're going to have guide ropes to hold onto and pull themselves along. A diver at their head and another at their feet. They might be able to ring a rope around the guide rope and tie the other end to the boy's wrist/ankle to keep them from floating away from the guide rope in a panic whilst still allowing travel along the guideline? Even if the boys aren't literally packaged up, they will be like a package that's being guided along those guide ropes by the expert divers who will be taking all the stress and dealing with problems like going through tight spots.
 
They are Buddhists, right? I think that could be another asset. "Just relax and breath" would be familiar to them. It might also help them greatly if and when the phone is finally put in place, if the monks could talk to the boys.
 
Amonet said:
Regarding the panic and not knowing which way is up, etc. They're not going to be doing it alone. They're going to have guide ropes to hold onto and pull themselves along. A diver at their head and another at their feet. They might be able to ring a rope around the guide rope and tie the other end to the boy's wrist/ankle to keep them from floating away from the guide rope in a panic whilst still allowing travel along the guideline? Even if the boys aren't literally packaged up, they will be like a package that's being guided along those guide ropes by the expert divers who will be taking all the stress and dealing with problems like going through tight spots.
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That's how I picture it too.
 
Elainera said:
I don't know anything about scuba diving. It has been said multiple times that it would be very dangerous to bring the boys out that way. But why exactly? Lights have been installed. They will have oxygen and will be connected to the professional front and back divers. Don't they just have to pull them along and the boy simply lies still? It's not like the boys have to propel themselves or look/feel for their way, it'll be all done for them. What exactly is it that is so dangerous? The possibility of a panic? Sorry if this is a stupid question.
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There are long distances where there is no headroom, no way to surface if something goes wrong. There is a powerful current that they have to fight. Some places have sharp turns that they have to contort to get through. The water isn't really water, it's mud. They won't be able to see anything, they have to feel their way. There are spots so tight the divers had to remove their tanks. I don't think there's any way for the divers to communicate during the dive, so the rescuers won't be able to give instructions or calm them when they are underwater.

If one of the boys panics at the wrong time, he and the two rescue divers die.

Imagine trying to crawl through the ductwork in your home, blindfolded, with water filling it and a strong current against you. This dive would be worse.
 
*Verdigris said:
There's one section in there that says "Full climbing gear needed"
--huh??? As far as I know none of the boys went in equipped with full climbing gear...?
...
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When the boys went in it was dry, and they were probably able to use rocks to scramble up and over. With everything being wet, it could be too slippery to do that. The flood could have also dumped enough mud and sediment that rocks are covered and there's no way to get any hand/foot holds.
 
Wyle_E_Coyote said:
There are long distances where there is no headroom, no way to surface if something goes wrong. There is a powerful current that they have to fight. Some places have sharp turns that they have to contort to get through. The water isn't really water, it's mud. They won't be able to see anything, they have to feel their way. There are spots so tight the divers had to remove their tanks. I don't think there's any way for the divers to communicate during the dive, so the rescuers won't be able to give instructions or calm them when they are underwater.

If one of the boys panics at the wrong time, he and the two rescue divers die.

Imagine trying to crawl through the ductwork in your home, blindfolded, with water filling it and a strong current against you. This dive would be worse.
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Would it be possible for them to develop a rudimentary communications system with the boys by doing things like "three taps on the palm of the hand means stay as still as possible and let us take control" and something else means "remember the breathing exercises we taught you" and things like that?
 
Bravo said:
I personally don't think a very mild medication is such a bad idea. Keeping calm is key to survival. IMO when it was discussed I assume they mean something mild to calm yet they are fully aware and cognizant.
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I agree with you, but I agree more with those who are saying it's not a good idea.

If one boy is given medication in the cave and something goes wrong, that's going to panic the rest of the boys too much. But I think it would be a risk-benefit evaluation, if one of the boys really is panicked before going out then they might leave him until last and then risk it, or maybe take a boy part way through and then every time they reach an air space where the mask can be removed consider whether he needs medicating at that point and whether his body can be removed if something goes wrong with the medication. But I think breathing and meditation techniques will be much better choices than medication.

Pulling the boys through the caves is something I think the divers will feel more in control of than giving a medication without full crash support down there. Maybe they can carry something for an emergency, but I wouldn't think they'll want to use it.
 
Amonet said:
Would it be possible for them to develop a rudimentary communications system with the boys by doing things like "three taps on the palm of the hand means stay as still as possible and let us take control" and something else means "remember the breathing exercises we taught you" and things like that?
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If they were diving side by side... But they are going to be in a line, in liquid mud where they can't see their hands in front of their face. They won't even be able to see each other.
 
I believe this will help the boys tremendously (I'm certain it already has):


"The coach was asked how could he help the kids stay alive inside the cave. He said when he was a monk he used to practise deep meditation in the cave for months. So he knows how to keep everyone's mind calm and how to survive in the cave. "

News about #ThamLuang on Twitter
 
Bravo said:
I personally don't think a very mild medication is such a bad idea. Keeping calm is key to survival. IMO when it was discussed I assume they mean something mild to calm yet they are fully aware and cognizant.
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Seems risky to me to medicate them with something they have not had before. There are risks of side effects with any new medication. There is no way to gauge each boy's reaction to the medication before hand and no time to wait and see if it is safe for them or if the dosage is correct. I think the boys are mentally strong and with a couple days of food will be physically strong enough to go through this without being drugged. JMO. One advantage to their youth is that they do not realize all that can go wrong, so they are less likely to have intense fear of the dangers, IMO. Young boys their age are more likely to be dare devils, IME. They think they are invincible. As long as they listen to the scuba divers instructions I think they can get out. JMO.
 
Amonet said:
Would it be possible for them to develop a rudimentary communications system with the boys by doing things like "three taps on the palm of the hand means stay as still as possible and let us take control" and something else means "remember the breathing exercises we taught you" and things like that?
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Dear Amonet,

This would make a tremendous difference during their journey out.

Perhaps somehow they have figured something out. Or the coach is continuing to demonstrate deep meditation to keep their minds calm. A mantra to keep coming back and coming back to. That would be key - to keep coming back to the deep meditation over the fear.
 
Gardener1850 said:
Seems risky to me to medicate them with something they have not had before. There are risks of side effects with any new medication. There is no way to gauge each boy's reaction to the medication before hand and no time to wait and see if it is safe for them or if the dosage is correct. I think the boys are mentally strong and with a couple days of food will be physically strong enough to go through this without being drugged. JMO. One advantage to their youth is that they do not realize all that can go wrong, so they are less likely to have intense fear of the dangers, IMO. Young boys their age are more likely to be dare devils, IME. They think they are invincible. As long as they listen to the scuba divers instructions I think they can get out. JMO.
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I'd hate to be the one who has to make that risk assessment. Panic during the dive could kill three people. A bad reaction to meds could kill one boy and terrify all the others making everything worse.
 
Wyle_E_Coyote said:
Claus Rasmussen, who is part of the rescue team, said the boys have told divers they heard dogs barking, a rooster crowing and children playing. That information now has teams looking at whether there is a chimney or hole they can access instead of trying to get the boys out through the water.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/07/04/asia/thai-cave-rescue-intl/index.html


That would be great!
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Wow! There must be some kind of opening right?

Or did they starting to hallucinate in the darkness?
 
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