tmar
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I agree.
Professional expertise can be questioned, by other experts in the field, each with their own findings, if this went to 'trial'.
Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #8
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I agree.
Professional expertise can be questioned, by other experts in the field, each with their own findings, if this went to 'trial'.
From the Toronto star article “...In Chiasson’s examination, it was determined that they were likely not strangled with the belts. Instead, they were strangled with some other type of ligature, and the belts were then put around their necks...”
How the investigation into the deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman turned from murder-suicide to double homicide | The Star
MistyWaters
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I agree. And the Coroner supported by forensic pathologists haven’t spoke out publicly at all. It’s possible they all came to the same conclusion based on the autopsies that were conducted. That’s critical because if and when this case goes to trial they’ll be key Crown witnesses, especially if the defence attempts to create reasonable doubt regarding the manner of death.
My opinion is there’s a lot more information that hasn’t been released. The PI team has no reason to release everything they know any more than TPS if it interferes with the investigation.
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So assuming that both of the pathologists were excellent, qualified, and experienced (we know that the hired one is, and no reason to believe that the one that did the autopsy is NOT).. and assuming that the coroner is also excellent, qualified, and experienced, then why do you figure it took a month to come to that same conclusion?
My guess is that LE were leaning in a certain direction, while pathologist#1's findings may have left room for doubt on either suicide or murder... and in the event that there are 2 possibilities, I believe the coroner must find that the manner was 'undetermined'.. which would, I'm sure, be considered totally unacceptable, can you imagine if that had been the determination?? Not good, imho.
Then suddenly, after almost a month, police FINALLY, after a big newspaper piece, actually spoke to pathologist#2.. and only days later, police held their press conference with the determination of double homicide..
This is the part that for me anyway, seems very coincidental in terms of the timing, but that is just my opinion (and apparently also that of some others who have written articles??).
Interesting the two theories about what they were strangled with!
From the first article (written in later January):
"The ligature neck compression, sources say, was likely done by two men’s leather belts found at the scene wrapped around the necks of the victims.
"While earlier media reports suggested they died by hanging, sources say that is incorrect. They were found in a seated position at the side of a pool in a lower level of the house, with their legs facing away from the pool. The belts were around the neck, with the end of the belt through the buckle and pulled tight. The free end of each belt was then looped or tied around a low railing that surrounds the pool. Sources say a working theory of the private team probing the deaths is that the Shermans were strangled by the belts, then the belts were attached to the railing, holding them in a seated position."
From the second linked article (written in May by same "Chief Investigative Reporter), as above:
"As has been previously reported, leather belts were looped around their necks and used to hold them in a sitting position, backs to the pool.
"In Chiasson’s examination, it was determined that they were likely not strangled with the belts. Instead, they were strangled with some other type of ligature, and the belts were then put around their necks."
Is the difference because in the *first* article (written in January), the info was coming from 'sources', while in the *second* article, written months later, the reporter had obtained Chiasson's actual autopsy examination report?
Is it interesting/of note that in mid February, three weeks after police had stated the double homicide determination, police filed a production order to obtain all of the couple's medical records which had been obtained by the *first* pathologist?
"The next batch of search warrants and production orders filed by police, on Feb. 15, listed both Barry and Honey as victims of homicide. One of those production orders is a judicial authorization to obtain “all medical records for Bernard Sherman and Anna Debra Honey Sherman obtained by Dr. Michael Pickup under the authority of the Coroner’s Act during the coroner’s investigation” into the Sherman deaths. That document, filed in court, does not detail or explain the records at issue."
How the investigation into the deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman turned from murder-suicide to double homicide | The Star
"The next batch of search warrants and production orders filed by police, on Feb. 15, listed both Barry and Honey as victims of homicide. One of those production orders is a judicial authorization to obtain “all medical records for Bernard Sherman and Anna Debra Honey Sherman obtained by Dr. Michael Pickup under the authority of the Coroner’s Act during the coroner’s investigation” into the Sherman deaths. That document, filed in court, does not detail or explain the records at issue."
How the investigation into the deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman turned from murder-suicide to double homicide | The Star
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With what material, I wondered already in the early days of the newspaper reports. I think, some shoelaces would have been too short/too breakable? Had it been something used also for binding together BS/HS' each wrists before? On the other hand LE said, the material, the pair was bound with, wasn't found in the home.
Thinking ............
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I vague remember a special timing of an important conversation between the Premier and whom ......?
I don't recall anything about the Premier, other than she attended the funeral, along with our Prime Minister and Toronto's mayor... however you may be remembering it was in the news that Toronto's mayor (and member of the police services board) was receiving flack for conversing with Toronto police chief Saunders in regard to the Sherman fam?
"Pugash declined to comment about whether it was typical for the mayor to convey concerns to Toronto police on behalf of families."
Did John Tory cross a line by talking to police about the Sherman investigation? | The Star
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Thank you, that's it!
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Did John Tory cross a line by talking to police about the Sherman investigation? | The Star
Dec 28th, 2017
“He was not ordering police to do anything. He was just providing information.”
While it is not unusual for the mayor to talk to grieving families or offer them condolences, it is highly unusual for a board member to express concerns publicly or privately about a police investigation, Mukherjee said.
Peat would not release the names of other families Tory has spoken to following a violent crime or incident, and Mukherjee said he is not aware of the mayor going directly to the chief as a messenger for any other families, although many have raised concerns during investigations.
Dec 28th, 2017
“He was not ordering police to do anything. He was just providing information.”
While it is not unusual for the mayor to talk to grieving families or offer them condolences, it is highly unusual for a board member to express concerns publicly or privately about a police investigation, Mukherjee said.
Peat would not release the names of other families Tory has spoken to following a violent crime or incident, and Mukherjee said he is not aware of the mayor going directly to the chief as a messenger for any other families, although many have raised concerns during investigations.
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With what material, I wondered already in the early days of the newspaper reports. I think, some shoelaces would have been too short/too breakable? Had it been something used also for binding together BS/HS' each wrists before? On the other hand LE said, the material, the pair was bound with, wasn't found in the home.
Thinking ............
My impression from the various articles/reports is that there was no other material used to secure the belts to the railing. The belts themselves were evidently looped or tied around the railing to hold the bodies up.
MistyWaters
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I don’t think we know for a fact that it took a month for the autopsy to be completed? We only know TPS informed the public on Jan 26th that at some point in time it’d been determined a targeted double homicide took place. It can’t be assumed the press conference was scheduled only the day after that ruling was made. It may’ve been a strategic tactic to withhold that information for days or weeks during the initial phase of the investigation.
At the press conference we learned up until that date TPS conducted “thousands of hours” of investigative work, including “obtaining or executing 20 judicial authorizations and searches,” seizing more than 150 pieces of evidence, 127 witness interviews and the collection of 2,000 hours of surveillance and security video footage from adjacent homes and nearby businesses...”
Police investigation into Sherman double murder focuses on realtor’s ‘lock box’
That amount of energy invested by TPS, in addition to the home being held as a crime scene for six weeks indicates to me the working theory was double homicide very early on, likely from day one.
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MistyWaters
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The Mayor was exonerated. In Canada even though a Mayor or Councilor is always one of several citizens who sit on the policing board, no one person controls it nor is the Mayor “the boss” of the police. Individual board members are also not allowed to “instruct” the police department and there was no evidence he did so. However the role of the Mayor in any municipality is indeed to represent the people.
“....... If I had been to see the family, as the mayor apparently had, and there were concerns, I would pass them along. I think any sensible person would do the same thing. And I think that's quite different than either asking a question or giving an order," Mr. Pringle said...”
Mayor Tory did nothing improper in Sherman death probe, Toronto police chair says
There was definitely political pressure being put on the police to change their (reported) thinking that it was m/s.. and then we see articles about how Chief Saunders is a 'puppet on strings' to the mayor.. which leads one to wonder if such puppetry could have had a play in this case as well.. at least it leads *me* to wonder..
"Mark Saunders said in a statement issued Friday night that the officer — whom he does not name — will be disciplined if found to have committed misconduct.
The letter from Mark Hayward, addressed to Tory and first reported by Global News, blames the mayor for the decision to cancel the Toronto Anti-Violence Intervention Strategy (TAVIS) in 2016, which the letter says deprived police of a crucial tool in keeping violent street gangs at bay.
In the letter, Hayward calls Saunders "a puppet on strings," which he says are pulled by the mayor."
‘A puppet on strings’: Toronto police investigating officer’s scathing letter to mayor
"Mark Saunders said in a statement issued Friday night that the officer — whom he does not name — will be disciplined if found to have committed misconduct.
The letter from Mark Hayward, addressed to Tory and first reported by Global News, blames the mayor for the decision to cancel the Toronto Anti-Violence Intervention Strategy (TAVIS) in 2016, which the letter says deprived police of a crucial tool in keeping violent street gangs at bay.
In the letter, Hayward calls Saunders "a puppet on strings," which he says are pulled by the mayor."
‘A puppet on strings’: Toronto police investigating officer’s scathing letter to mayor
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That was my impression too... although I'm having difficulty picturing how the belt could be tied around the necks, AND the other end also tied to the railings.. without some help?? Can anyone help with that??
MistyWaters
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I’m very curious about who was “the source”. It reminds me of a twist on a good guy-bad guy scenario being played out in the media.
Jan 20th
...”Any observations would be first shared with the Toronto Police,” said Greenspan, “We are not here to interfere with police but to support them.”
CBC has also spoken to an unnamed source about the Sherman case.
“Private investigators believe that the billionaire Toronto couple found dead at their home in December were murdered by multiple killers, a source with direct knowledge of the parallel probe into their mysterious deaths told CBC Toronto.”
Greenspan said both reports surprised him....”
WARMINGTON: Billionaire Shermans slain by contract killers?
Jan 20th
...”Any observations would be first shared with the Toronto Police,” said Greenspan, “We are not here to interfere with police but to support them.”
CBC has also spoken to an unnamed source about the Sherman case.
“Private investigators believe that the billionaire Toronto couple found dead at their home in December were murdered by multiple killers, a source with direct knowledge of the parallel probe into their mysterious deaths told CBC Toronto.”
Greenspan said both reports surprised him....”
WARMINGTON: Billionaire Shermans slain by contract killers?
I'm not sure where you are getting that I thought it took a month for the autopsy to be completed?? I think I asked why you figured it took a month for the 2 pathologists and coroner to reach the same conclusions as one another and then for TPS to subsequently announce it to the public?
I'm confident that if the coroner had determined it was double homicide after the first pathologist did the autopsy, that it would have been announced, because obviously it meant a lot to the family to not have BS's name continue to be tarnished with the public continuing to believe (via newspaper reports) that he murdered his wife. That is a pretty hefty allegation, even if it was only via newspaper reports. Why not set the thinking straight? Instead... TPS took their time and didn't even bother speaking with pathologist#2 to see what his professional opinion was on whether it was m/s or double homicide. It was ONLY after The Star published a big article stating it was double murder, that TPS bothered to interview Chiasson, and then after that, only a handful of days before the press conference announcing m/m to the public. As I said before, I think the timing is very suspect in all of that.
MistyWaters
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MistyWaters
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My apologies, I misunderstood your post to question why it would’ve taken a month for the Coroner to come to the same conclusion as the family’s hired team. My point was that we don’t that it took a month, only that the public was informed on Jan 26th. I think we can agree that one of the roles of police forces in Canada is solving crime but for the most part, keeping the general public informed during the course of an investigation is not something they’re obliged to do, so we can’t know what we don’t know. That includes who was the anonymous source for The Star articles.
You wrote
“....I'm confident that if the coroner had determined it was double homicide after the first pathologist did the autopsy, that it would have been announced, because obviously it meant a lot to the family to not have BS's name continue to be tarnished with the public continuing to believe (via newspaper reports) that he murdered his wife...”
Was BS’s name permanently tarnished by the sequence of events that have occured to date? Me personally, I don’t think it was.
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