Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #8

[MistyWaters]

From the same article: (RBaUBM) "... Two days later, Ms. Gomes told a packed room of reporters at police headquarters that the killings weren’t a double suicide or a murder-suicide. The couple had, in fact, been strangled by one or more perpetrators. “The Shermans were targeted,” Ms. Gomes said.

People familiar with the investigation said that conclusion was reached not long before the news conference. The precise reasons are unclear.

“People familiar with the investigation”? That could include virtually the entire country, anyone who followed MSM was familiar with the investigation.

Unless MSM quote a named source, what is gleaned from anonymous sources might be true but it also might be completely false. In virtually every high profile case unreliable information gets published. Thats because the onus is not on MSM to verify the validity of information they print - they’re in the business of ratings and profit.

ETA: A good example is the three different MSM versions of who or how a realtor made the discovery of the bodies.

 

[MistyWaters]

In my opinion? Absolutely. Look around even here on WS, there are some who still adhere to the m/s theory, even though police have publicly and officially announced differently. Anytime a person's name is dragged through the mud via MSM like that, I believe it is a terrible burden to have to correct it, and that it will never be as if it never happened in the first place. The fact that it took a month, rather than a week, adds to that, imho.

I guess I’m not understanding how Barry Sherman’s name was dragged through the mud via MSM. Maybe it’s about perception but I didn’t notice that occurring. At the onset, even when the media published the deaths were being investigated as a possible murder/suicide, it’s understandable that’s the way the death scene appeared to the first responders.

Maybe I’m speaking for myself but in this country I’ve learned anything involving legal matters never happens quickly. The Humboldt bus crash for example, a whole three months for charges to be laid.

After the initial flurry of MSM speculation subsided, TPS consistently reinforced the fact the deaths were deemed “suspicious” while the general public awaited the official determination. Meanwhile family and various friends, peers and associates spoke out against the murder/suicide scenario.

During that time I’d also be willing to bet there was a lot of talk amongst people who knew the Sherman’s personally, particularly by those already interviewed by TPS. By the type of questioning, they’d know what direction the investigation was pointed toward long before the official press conference announcing a targeted double homicide.

Even the fact the memorial service was attended by 6000 people is a huge public statement the couple were highly regarded, even after death.

The interesting thing about those who hang on to the m/s theory, at the same time I notice BS is perceived to be quite a despicable sort of character. Therefore if his personality was such that he crossed paths with others and surely made enemies, why is the possibility of a targeted murder being disputed? I don’t quite get the logic. On the other hand people are free to believe whatever they choose, which is the great thing about opinions - we all are allowed one.

 

[ldlager]

“People familiar with the investigation”? That could include virtually the entire country, anyone who followed MSM was familiar with the investigation.

Unless MSM quote a named source, what is gleaned from anonymous sources might be true but it also might be completely false. In virtually every high profile case unreliable information gets published. Thats because the onus is not on MSM to verify the validity of information they print - they’re in the business of ratings and profit.

ETA: A good example is the three different MSM versions of who or how a realtor made the discovery of the bodies.

All we have are press reports, and the police press conference. And many sure don’t believe the police!!

 

[MistyWaters]

It takes ages for some medical tests to come through: histopathology on tissues, drug screens, whether more extensive investigations are required following initial results etc.
Can be complex and time consuming.
These all lead to expert's conclusions.
These experts require laboratory testing, to aid in their determinations of 'cause of death' etc.
Even if appears 'clearly staged, or clearly murder', the initial cause requires to be fully investigated.

I think so too. Staged homicides add a whole other layer of complexity upon death investigations. Much like witnesses may falsify facts, in essence so does the visual observation of a staged death scene.

A staged death case was recently reported in Alberta and I can’t begin to imagine why it took almost a year for the autopsy to be completed, but it did. The boyfriend called 911 sobbing, claiming he’d found his girlfriend dead and she’d committed suicide, hanging from a fridge.

“.......The victim had been both manually choked and suffered blunt force trauma wounds to her head, one of which caused her death.

Parker said the suicide claim was only disproved once an autopsy was completed nearly a year later.

Until then Carpen’s family was under the misapprehension she had taken her own life, which Parker said was an aggravating factor in the case....”
Calgary man who killed his girlfriend claimed it was a suicide for months

 

[casesensitive]

Although I have defended TPS in this case, in retrospect, I suspect that they had tunnel vision for the M/S theory. There is a chance that they resented the family's hired team and that could be another reason to explain why they didn't meet with the second pathologist for over a month. Police are known for having pretty big egos when it comes to accepting outside help they didn't ask for. Regardless of the reason, I think it was a significant blunder to not touch base with Dr. Chiasson after he performed his autopsy. Sgt. Gomes ended up looking foolish imo.

So imo, tunnel vision or inflated egos may have played a role in this investigation, in spite of the standard protocol of keeping everything close to their chests (which I respect). The conspiracy cover-up theory of M/S will never die either unless the case is solved. Hopefully TPS will pull it off.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

We know from a recent news article that Barry's head was very close to the railing (sorry, can't locate the link at the moment). That is one of the reasons behind the PI's concluding it was a murder- the head was too close to the railing for him to have hung himself (that's what the article said anyways). This setup (head close to the railing) leaves a lot of belt material to tie around the railing. Plus Barry was a large man, I assume if the belts were his, they were long enough.

The belts were around the neck, with the end of the belt through the buckle and pulled tight. The free end of each belt was then looped or tied around a low railing that surrounds the pool. Sources say a working theory of the private team probing the deaths is that the Shermans were strangled by the belts, then the belts were attached to the railing, holding them in a seated position.
Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered, private investigators claim | The Star
Toronto homicide detectives have confirmed Barry and Honey Sherman were targeted and killed six weeks ago, strangled, then held upright by leather belts looped around the smooth stainless steel railing of their home’s indoor pool.
Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered, police say | The Star

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I agree completely that what you have mentioned can happen in many instances.. however the difference in *this* case, is that there were only 3 options - double homicide, double suicide, or Barry killed his wife and then himself. It was all over the news and into the general public's perception, through MSM, that LE's theory was murder/suicide, which could ONLY mean that Barry killed his wife. What a terrible thing to have going around the world about a prominent international businessman, don't you agree?

Police witnessed what was going on in the press, and the perceptions in place, and yet they did nothing to set anything straight. They didn't hold a press conference to inform the public that those perceptions and newspaper reports were all wrong, and that in fact they required some 6 weeks to make a determination (which, imho, is highly unlikely to begin with). So for an entire month, the public was left believing that police believed that Barry had done this.

In just looking around WS, it seems that people in general seem to put a lot of weight in what police are thinking, in fact I find that on most threads, people seem to believe police are clairvoyants and that they know what happened and whodunnit, even without evidence, or they seem to believe that police *know*, but perhaps don't have *enough* evidence to lay charges/take to trial, etc... that they are withholding critical information from the public while they gather up the final clues/evidence.

I'm not sure what happened in this case, whether police really couldn't figure it out for 6 entire weeks and couldn't be bothered to lay to rest any damning media reports in the meantime, or whether they actually *were* working under the m/s theory and *that* is why they didn't bother to change public perception. I'm just saying that the *timing* of the announcement of double homicide seems *very* coincidental to when police were finally bothered to interview the second pathologist, which only seems to have occurred once 'M/M' was splashed on the front pages. Rightly or wrongly, *that* is the perception that I am now left with. But to each their own opinion, I'm not insisting that everyone agree with me.

Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered, private investigators claim | The Star
Saturday morning a story broke in the Toronto Sun that police were working on a theory of murder-suicide. Other media, including the National Post, the Globe and Mail and the Toronto Star, confirmed the report that this was the active theory of the police at the time. In each case, the media quoted sources and did not identify an officer who put forward the theory.

 

[MistyWaters]

More on the timeline —

Jan 26th - The Sun reports that actors driving vehicles similar to the Shermans on Jan 24th. They’re involved in filming an episode for the Fifth Estate.

.....“The story will take a new turn, perhaps this week, when Toronto Police hand over the scene to Greenspan’s hired private detective.....”
Sherman lookalikes ‘eerie’ as camera crews roll into neighbourhood

Jan 26th - TPS Press Conference announcing the targeted double homicide.

Feb 2nd - airdate of the Fifth Estate: The Mystery of the Sherman Murders.
Here it is, anyone who missed it or wants to rewatch. Without KW, it’d been difficult for CBC to fill the hour time slot.

I recall being quite surprised CBC had the documentary ready to roll so quickly following the official announcement by TPS.

Something I also just noticed, a brief clip in the video - the son’s comparison of his parents relationship to “a lock and key” in his prepared eulogy. Either just a weird coincidence or he intentionally choose (or LE asked) to drop that hook out there considering the possible access to the home via the lockbox.

Since then, really nothing more. Just a matter of waiting for the slow wheels of Justice to turn....

 

[Deleted member 102539]

The mystery of the strangled billionaires

The pair depended on each other.

Honey would make sure Barry was dressed properly for events and galas, picking out his clothes down to his socks.

At the funeral, Jonathon remembered his father on a family trip "driving around in a jeep in Israel looking for mom's lost wallet, and her lost keys, and her lost sunglasses, and her jacket too".

"You were like a lock and a key, each pretty useless on your own. But together you unlocked the whole world for yourselves, and for us, and so many others."

I was touched and impressed, when JS said this about their parents.

One could say: HS/BS needed each other even in death and the siblings now have no useless half of parent left.

 

[MistyWaters]

I noticed what appears to be a significant discrepancy. Either KW had been in the Sherman home or not, but it can’t be both. Kerry, please help me out here if you will, maybe I’m misunderstanding what you’ve stated? And my apologies if this has already been discussed but I don’t recall.

BBM

Beginning @ appx 15:55 into the Feb 2nd Fifth Estate documentary:
“But Kerry Winter says Honey Sherman was not enthusiastic about her husband’s renewed relationship with his cousins. He said she had some tough questions for him at their house one day. <begin KW clip>...... “And I didn’t understand her line of questions. What do you want with my husband or how much money is he giving you and she started to berate me and I remember going...uh leaving that day thinking something was amiss....”

The Fifth Estate interview must’ve taken place after the Jan 26th TPS press conference. Then within only a matter of a few days, to the contrary -

Feb 2nd - WARMINGTON: Sherman cousin Kerry Winter speaks with Toronto Police (audio of the Warmington/Winter phone conversation can also found on a YouTube video)

“.....Homicide detectives likely asked him if he has ever been inside the 12,000-square-foot mansion where Honey and Barry Sherman were found slain. A friend of the Shermans said he will tell police that Winter was asked by Barry to go to the house more than a dozen years ago to look at the kitchen, which he was hoping to renovate.

Winter says this is not true. “I have never stepped foot inside of 50 Old Colony Road,” he insists....”
WARMINGTON: Sherman cousin Kerry Winter speaks with Toronto Police

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I noticed what appears to be a significant discrepancy. Either KW had been in the Sherman home or not, but it can’t be both. Kerry, please help me out here if you will, maybe I’m misunderstanding what you’ve stated? And my apologies if this has already been discussed but I don’t recall.

BBM

Beginning @ appx 15:55 into the Feb 2nd Fifth Estate documentary:
“But Kerry Winter says Honey Sherman was not enthusiastic about her husband’s renewed relationship with his cousins. He said she had some tough questions for him at their house one day. <begin KW clip>...... “And I didn’t understand her line of questions. What do you want with my husband or how much money is he giving you and she started to berate me and I remember going...uh leaving that day thinking something was amiss....”

The Fifth Estate interview must’ve taken place after the Jan 26th TPS press conference. Then within only a matter of a few days, to the contrary -

Feb 2nd - WARMINGTON: Sherman cousin Kerry Winter speaks with Toronto Police (audio of the Warmington/Winter phone conversation can also found on a YouTube video)

“.....Homicide detectives likely asked him if he has ever been inside the 12,000-square-foot mansion where Honey and Barry Sherman were found slain. A friend of the Shermans said he will tell police that Winter was asked by Barry to go to the house more than a dozen years ago to look at the kitchen, which he was hoping to renovate.

Winter says this is not true. “I have never stepped foot inside of 50 Old Colony Road,” he insists....”
WARMINGTON: Sherman cousin Kerry Winter speaks with Toronto Police

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I don't understand why KW complains, that he received millions from Barry and felt himself under BS' thumb because of that. Why did he not refuse to be helped, when he eventually got on his feet? - Shrugging ....

 

[ldlager]

I noticed what appears to be a significant discrepancy. Either KW had been in the Sherman home or not, but it can’t be both. Kerry, please help me out here if you will, maybe I’m misunderstanding what you’ve stated? And my apologies if this has already been discussed but I don’t recall.

BBM

Beginning @ appx 15:55 into the Feb 2nd Fifth Estate documentary:
“But Kerry Winter says Honey Sherman was not enthusiastic about her husband’s renewed relationship with his cousins. He said she had some tough questions for him at their house one day. <begin KW clip>...... “And I didn’t understand her line of questions. What do you want with my husband or how much money is he giving you and she started to berate me and I remember going...uh leaving that day thinking something was amiss....”

The Fifth Estate interview must’ve taken place after the Jan 26th TPS press conference. Then within only a matter of a few days, to the contrary -

Feb 2nd - WARMINGTON: Sherman cousin Kerry Winter speaks with Toronto Police (audio of the Warmington/Winter phone conversation can also found on a YouTube video)

“.....Homicide detectives likely asked him if he has ever been inside the 12,000-square-foot mansion where Honey and Barry Sherman were found slain. A friend of the Shermans said he will tell police that Winter was asked by Barry to go to the house more than a dozen years ago to look at the kitchen, which he was hoping to renovate.

Winter says this is not true. “I have never stepped foot inside of 50 Old Colony Road,” he insists....”
WARMINGTON: Sherman cousin Kerry Winter speaks with Toronto Police

Yes, this was discussed early on, before I think kw was a member. The two statements attributable to kw appear contradictory on the surface, but at the time it was pointed out that he could have had his discussion with HS while AT the house but not IN the house (on the porch, in the yard, etc.). Notice his last statement clearly indicates he has never set foot inside Old Colony.
The statement by a friend of the Sherman’s is IMO, heresay, and does not provide any evidence or verification that kw ever went into the house to look at the kitchen.

 

[dotr]

Yes, this was discussed early on, before I think kw was a member. The two statements attributable to kw appear contradictory on the surface, but at the time it was pointed out that he could have had his discussion with HS while AT the house but not IN the house (on the porch, in the yard, etc.). Notice his last statement clearly indicates he has never set foot inside Old Colony.
The statement by a friend of the Sherman’s is IMO, heresay, and does not provide any evidence or verification that kw ever went into the house to look at the kitchen.

Someone could always peek at the kitchen through a window, for that matter, most of the rooms seem to offer a good view into the house, except perhaps the pool area...
imo, speculation.
Barry and Honey Sherman sued builders of North York home | The Star

 

[MistyWaters]

Yes, this was discussed early on, before I think kw was a member. The two statements attributable to kw appear contradictory on the surface, but at the time it was pointed out that he could have had his discussion with HS while AT the house but not IN the house (on the porch, in the yard, etc.). Notice his last statement clearly indicates he has never set foot inside Old Colony.
The statement by a friend of the Sherman’s is IMO, heresay, and does not provide any evidence or verification that kw ever went into the house to look at the kitchen.

I don’t know. Fifth Estate tends to snip and insert only short pieces of their interviews, the host summarizing for context, so we aren’t privy to the initial portion of the conversation. For example, we don’t know why KW was anywhere near the Sherman property on that particular day if only HS was home.

But if someone was at my house last night, yesterday or one day, that certainly doesn’t suggest they were only in my yard. Maybe it’s a Canadian thing - but at my house is an extremely manner of describing someone’s presence inside the home.

ETA - an example - “When I was over at your house the other day, I think I might’ve left my scarf on your couch”.

 

[deugirtni]

The mystery of the strangled billionaires

The pair depended on each other.

Honey would make sure Barry was dressed properly for events and galas, picking out his clothes down to his socks.

At the funeral, Jonathon remembered his father on a family trip "driving around in a jeep in Israel looking for mom's lost wallet, and her lost keys, and her lost sunglasses, and her jacket too".

"You were like a lock and a key, each pretty useless on your own. But together you unlocked the whole world for yourselves, and for us, and so many others."

I was touched and impressed, when JS said this about their parents.

One could say: HS/BS needed each other even in death and the siblings now have no useless half of parent left.

"and the siblings now have no useless half of parent left"

Well, *that* is a way to put it!

 

[MistyWaters]

The lost appeal was in our claim against the executor of my late parents estate: the Royal Trust Company.
The appeal in the Sherman/Apotex claim will happen next month.

The outcome of the appeal will be interesting.

While I’m no legal expert, what I understand from the Judge’s written Summary Judgement is one of the main reasons the lawsuit Winter v. Sherman was dismissed was because it virtually mirrored the earlier failed legal action against Royal Trust. That ruling was also unsuccessfully appealed.

The only aspect that differed was the addition of an alleged conversation between you and Mr O’Brien occuring in 2008. As Mr O’Brien is now deceased and that conversation was never mentioned in the earlier Royal Trust lawsuit, the Judge ruled the evidence to be inadmissible as it cannot be proven.

I know you can’t comment and my intent is only to share my personal understanding about the context of the proceedings.

.......

[35] The evidence, as set out in the original affidavit material that was before Justice Perell, and Sherman’s more recent affidavit, affirmed January 27, 2017, clearly supports this analysis. Kerry Winter’s affidavit, as I read it, does not provide any new evidentiary support for an alleged Commitment, other than his alleged conversation with Mr. O’Brien to the effect that it was Sherman’s promise and verbal assurances to include the children in the business that convinced Royal Trust to sell to S & U. I was not referred to any evidence from Sherman’s more recent cross-examination that supports different conclusions than those reached earlier by Justice Perell, or that is contrary to Sherman’s position on this motion.

[36] I am unable to rely on the evidence from Mr. Winter concerning the alleged conversation with Mr. O’Brien. It is hearsay which cannot be tested by cross-examination, as Mr. O’Brien is dead. Secondly, these discussions allegedly took place in 2008 and therefore could have been put forward on the Royal Trust motion in an affidavit from Mr. O’Brien, or alternatively, on a Rule 39.03 examination. Thirdly, this evidence directly contradicts the purchase and sale agreement agreed to by Royal Trust. Fourthly, the purchase and sale agreement contains an entire agreement clause which specifically provides that there were no “verbal statements, representations, warranties, undertaking or agreements between the parties.” Fifthly, it ignores the fact that Sherman’s offer was $100,000 more than the only other offer. And finally, it ignores Justice Perell’s finding, at paragraph 110 of his reasons, that Mr. O’Brien told Mr. Ward that “t appears that we have fully canvassed the market and our chances of selling the companies at a higher price than offered by Barry Sherman would be minimal.” This was the rationale for the sale, not the one now put forward by the plaintiffs.

<....>

[2016 ONSC 3124 (CanLII), 266 A.C.W.S. (3d) 726, at para. 71. I am mindful of the fact that the defendants are different, but the Commitment and Undertaking could and should have been raised earlier. Mr. O’Brien was one of the trustees of the family trusts. He was a member of the Royal Trust Management Committee. He was involved in the sale of the Empire Companies. Surely if Royal Trust was not relying upon the option as part of the sale, but upon other things that formed the Commitment, this was relevant to the issue of whether Royal Trust was negligent, as the plaintiffs alleged before Justice Perell.
CanLII - 2017 ONSC 5492 (CanLII)

 

[human]

As far as being under someon’s thumb, those of us that worked had to be on the clock, produce, follow the rules, etc.

And usually a bank owned our mortgage.

It would have been nice to get millions for doing nothing, I feel.

 

[MistyWaters]

"and the siblings now have no useless half of parent left"

Well, *that* is a way to put it!

Did you watch the video of him speaking? My impression was he seemed absolutely intent on comparing the relationship of his parents to a “lock and key” but then stumbled on the explanation about why it was an appropriate comparison in placing them both equal.

Mere mention of a lock and key considering access to their home may have been through a realtors lockbox containing a key - maybe just me but I think the reference was deliberate.

 

[human]

No one answered my question if there was a way to have a card reader read the code to the lock box like it done on gas pumps and ATM’s by criminals

My guess is that the murderers knew there were no cameras. Who would even imagine that billionaires did not have cameras