Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #8

[deugirtni]

Unless someone who would know this for certain told him.

And I doubt if that would've been of the TPS variety of informant.

 

[deugirtni]

I have a friend that is an opp officer who has been heavily and thoroughly trained in dealing with the media. That is her primary role, and she is good at it. She just shakes her head at the way TPS initially handled this.

I will be blunt, and this is my opinion only. Based on what I have read and heard, TPS couldn’t even inform the family in a timely and responsible manner that their loved ones had died. I really question whether they are capable of solving this case.

We mustn't forget though, that in the initial hours at least, the family members would have *had* to have been viewed as potential suspects (*if* TPS had/have any brains at all, which I'm sure they do.. IN the event that it was a double homicide, which surely they must've also been considering?). They were presumably about to inherit vast sums of money. It would only have been due diligence to tell the potential suspects/family as little as possible, at least until LE had a chance to interview them to find out what they *did* know and get it on paper before they were told any details?

 

[Deleted member 102539]

FromGermany, I think a fairer and more correct way to phrase this is that Kerry 'feels' or Kerry 'suspects' that Honey died hours before BS.
Unless he has accessed both the police evidentiary notes AND the autopsy results, he cannot be certain.
One can have a 'gut feeling' but proof is required, no?

You are right, proof would be required, but I want to believe KW from time to time and quoted him. I hope, his statement is based on knowledge, from which source ever.

The leak of the audio recording came from a reliable source and has been buried. The article will arrive....patience. It won’t be a fluff piece like yesterday’s Wall Street Journal.
I KNOW Honey died hrs before Barry. If you draw logical conclusions you would have to believe that the multiple murderers ordered in pizza and watched Netflix with my cousin before killing him....mind you, without a single defense wound!
Please.

Kerry Winter, Jun 30, 2018 Report
#447 Unlike + Quote Reply
You, Hazelnutty, matou and 1 other person like this.

 

[ldlager]

We mustn't forget though, that in the initial hours at least, the family members would have *had* to have been viewed as potential suspects (*if* TPS had/have any brains at all, which I'm sure they do.. IN the event that it was a double homicide, which surely they must've also been considering?). They were presumably about to inherit vast sums of money. It would only have been due diligence to tell the potential suspects/family as little as possible, at least until LE had a chance to interview them to find out what they *did* know and get it on paper before they were told any details?

I am talking about not even contacting the family to tell them that their loved ones were dead. Some family members were out of the country, and certainly had alibis. Some family members were told by friends, not the police. And I read an account that said Jonathan first heard about his parent's death on social media. That situation is unacceptable, IMO, whether one is (even a remotely) potential suspect or not.

 

[JDG]

I am talking about not even contacting the family to tell them that their loved ones were dead. Some family members were out of the country, and certainly had alibis. Some family members were told by friends, not the police. And I read an account that said Jonathan first heard about his parent's death on social media. That situation is unacceptable, IMO, whether one is (even a remotely) potential suspect or not.

Yes, it was all handled very badly at the time. Devastatingly.

 

[MistyWaters]

Many of the early MSM reports have been since scrubbed any mention of murder-suicide from their initial reports.

I wonder, did “sources say police....” instantly morph into a flurry of “police source”? The two aren’t necessarily one and the same. “Sources” could be anyone who “says”.

BBM

This appeared in The Star on Jan 19th
“Saturday morning a story broke in the Toronto Sun that police were working on a theory of murder-suicide. Other media, including the National Post, the Globe and Mail and the Toronto Star, confirmed the report that this was the active theory of the police at the time. In each case, the media quoted sources and did not identify an officer who put forward the theory.
Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered, private investigators claim | The Star

The Toronto Sun - Warmington Sat, Dec 16, edited Dec 17
Officially, Toronto Police aren’t commenting on the tragedy — other than to call the deaths of one of Canada’s richest couples “suspicious.”
However, sources say police were working Friday night on the theory the demise of the billionaire Apotex founder and his wife, which has stunned the city and those who knew them, may have been a murder-suicide.
Murder-suicide suspected in deaths of Toronto billionaire and wife

 

[MistyWaters]

I am talking about not even contacting the family to tell them that their loved ones were dead. Some family members were out of the country, and certainly had alibis. Some family members were told by friends, not the police. And I read an account that said Jonathan first heard about his parent's death on social media. That situation is unacceptable, IMO, whether one is (even a remotely) potential suspect or not.

In all fairness, people who knew the Shermans began tweeting their shock and condolences prior to the TPS releasing any information. In this era of instant news, the realtor, the cleaning employees and maybe even the neighbours would’ve all known and likely shared information regarding the tragedy with others. It can’t imagine it’s an easy task for police to immediately determine the whereabouts of family members.

It wasn’t handled poorly only by TPS in my opinion. The media also shares blame too for reporting “news” from non-official TPS sources involving death, in their endeavour for readership and attention-seeking headlines. They know people don’t pay attention to words like “may”, “perhaps” or “possibly” - SM then ran with the story of murder-suicide as if it were a published fact.

Nobody considered the feelings of the children.

Jon S. -
“...As my sisters and I congregated for two days waiting to hear any facts other than through Twitter and the unreliable news media, I kept expecting my parents to walk through the front door and say ‘everything will be fine, we’ve taken control of the situation.’ These past few days have been a shocking adjustment to our reality.”...”
Mourners pay tribute to Canadian billionaire couple Barry and Honey Sherman

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Jon S. -
“...As my sisters and I congregated for two days waiting to hear any facts other than through Twitter and the unreliable news media, I kept expecting my parents to walk through the front door and say ‘everything will be fine, we’ve taken control of the situation.’ These past few days have been a shocking adjustment to our reality.”...”

A nightmare.

 

[Kerry Winter]

Considering that KW has been a foe of the S couple for a decade, and that TPS is probably the largest police forces in Canada (and so presumably they've learned a thing or two along the way), and that the couple were both dead of 'suspicious' circumstances that were as yet unknown for certain (but kinda maybe looked like murder), surely police would have known that *anyone* could and should be considered a potential murder suspect. The police reportedly were not even telling immediate family members any information, presumably for that very reason. But yet, KW has all this inside knowledge. I am not certain where his inside knowledge came from.

Detective B. Price’s reaction when told re. 6-9 hrs time of Honey’s death to Barry’s gave it away. He’s not a very good poker player. Looked as if to say, “how the hell could he know that”.
Don’t need further confirmation. BTW: that’s exactly how my 4 hour interrogation/Q+A went with Price.

 

[ldlager]

I had a thought. Does anyone have the house floor plan handy? It occurs to me that maybe they were staged to be facing something of significance. Can anyone tell from the floor plan what they would have been facing when hung? Is it just a plain wall? Wondering if they may have had some recent work done in that area that they wouldn’t pay for.

 

[ldlager]

I had a thought. Does anyone have the house floor plan handy? It occurs to me that maybe they were staged to be facing something of significance. Can anyone tell from the floor plan what they would have been facing when hung? Is it just a plain wall? Wondering if they may have had some recent work done in that area that they wouldn’t pay for.

Found the floor plan looks like they were just facing a plain wall.

 

[hudunit]

Kerry,I had posted earlier that I wondered if clues were given away by the direction and manner of questioning.I am sure you must have deduced something in the way they questioned you.Probably you cant tell us,but you must know some things that we dont.

 

[SeesSeas]

@Kerry Winter -
We're still wondering about the "audio of Barry killing Honey". Is the Fifth Estate still waiting for that audio?
May 12, 2018 post:

One of the producers at The Fifth Estate told me that they were waiting on an audio of Barry killing Honey. She also told me that a man who closely resembles Barry, (although he was covering his face with a jacket), turned away the camera...guess he forgot to shut off the audio,
I MUST be very careful!!!!
Because l’ve been told that l’m their prime suspect.

Thank-you.
After meeting with Detective B. Price for an interview/interrogation the lasted over 4 hrs, without a lawyer and willingly handed over my iPhone....l told him everything l know. I also told Tom Klatt what l know. My source is a retired homicide detective. I told him as l was leaving the police station to do the right thing... go back to the original murder/suicide and close the case.
One of the producers at The Fifth Estate told me that they were waiting on an audio of Barry killing Honey. She also told me that a man who closely resembles Barry, (although he was covering his face with a jacket), turned away the camera...guess he forgot to shut off the audio,
I MUST be very careful!!!!
Because l’ve been told that l’m their prime suspect.
The police have backed themselves into a corner by jumping on Greenspan’s or should l say Greenspin’s narrative. They need to make an arrest: a fall guy.
I’ve reached out to a reputable US magazine. They have my story and facts.
The truth will come out. Barry killed Honey...then hung himself.
*****Barry was also VERY connected to the provincial and federal Liberal party.
That’s right: Prime Minister J. Trudeau.

 

[casesensitive]

Detective B. Price’s reaction when told re. 6-9 hrs time of Honey’s death to Barry’s gave it away. He’s not a very good poker player. Looked as if to say, “how the hell could he know that”.
Don’t need further confirmation. BTW: that’s exactly how my 4 hour interrogation/Q+A went with Price.

I am going to try to decipher what you just said--please correct me if I'm wrong. You told Det. Price that you know that Honey was dead 6-9 hours before Barry died. You obviously had what you consider a credible source for that information, and you feel Det. Price's reaction confirmed what you stated as a true fact. Okay, but how does that delay between their deaths prove anything?

On an earlier post, you gave a <modsnip> scenario of phantom killers watching Netflix to pass the time after HS's death, and before they ostensibly killed BS. I now have a better understanding of where you are coming from. <modsnip> Even if it is true that Honey died 6-9 hours before Barry, how does that prove that he was the person who actually killed her? Obviously, I can imagine other scenarios.

 

[deugirtni]

Found the floor plan looks like they were just facing a plain wall.

Wonder if it was a mirrored wall?

 

[andreww]

I am going to try to decipher what you just said--please correct me if I'm wrong. You told Det. Price that you know that Honey was dead 6-9 hours before Barry died. You obviously had what you consider a credible source for that information, and you feel Det. Price's reaction confirmed what you stated as a true fact. Okay, but how does that delay between their deaths prove anything?

On an earlier post, you gave a sarcastic scenario of phantom killers watching Netflix to pass the time after HS's death, and before they ostensibly killed BS. I now have a better understanding of where you are coming from. It helps when you add some information and context to your comments. Even if it is true that Honey died 6-9 hours before Barry, how does that prove that he was the person who actually killed her? Obviously, I can imagine other scenarios.

You can imagine other scenarios? I can't, not without using a lot of fiction anyway. Bottom line, if there was a 6-9 hour difference in their TODs, it certainly does bolster the argument that Barry killed her and spent the night deciding what he was going to do and staging the scene. There would have been no logical reason for assailants to wait that length of time between killings.

 

[WINDSOR]

It is my understanding that establishing Time of Death, is partly speculatively and not always exact. Especially if the bodies have not been discovered for many hours or days. It is also my understanding that no official statement has been issued regarding the times of death, especially that HS died 6-9 hours before BS. I personally do not believe there was such a time difference between deaths.

However if there was such a difference in times of death, it leads me to more questions.

One, could the assailants be interrogating BS about some issue during the time after HS was killed?

Second, if BS killed HS in a fit of rage as proposed by the M/S theorists, no doubt the rage would have subsided during those 6-9 hours and the 'normal' BS would not be suicidal.

Third, many suicides involve significant intake of drugs or alcohol. Logically if BS had killed HS, and in those 6-9 hours he became distraught and despondent, consumption of drugs and or alcohol would be reasonable.

However I do not believe the toxicology reports showed their existence. As well the use of alcohol or drugs would make the complex staging process even more unbelievable.

 

[MistyWaters]

It is my understanding that establishing Time of Death, is partly speculatively and not always exact. Especially if the bodies have not been discovered for many hours or days. It is also my understanding that no official statement has been issued regarding the times of death, especially that HS died 6-9 hours before BS. I personally do not believe there was such a time difference between deaths.

However if there was such a difference in times of death, it leads me to more questions.

One, could the assailants be interrogating BS about some issue during the time after HS was killed?

Second, if BS killed HS in a fit of rage as proposed by the M/S theorists, no doubt the rage would have subsided during those 6-9 hours and the 'normal' BS would not be suicidal.

Third, many suicides involve significant intake of drugs or alcohol. Logically if BS had killed HS, and in those 6-9 hours he became distraught and despondent, consumption of drugs and or alcohol would be reasonable.

However I do not believe the toxicology reports showed their existence. As well the use of alcohol or drugs would make the complex staging process even more unbelievable.

I have a difficult time imagining someone murdering another person by strangulation and then carefully and intentionally staging their own suicide to make it appear the two of them died by hanging from a low mounted railing, the deaths occurring through some sort of morbid but loving togetherness plot. Regardless of how many times that I consider that possibility, imo it’s still way too farfetched.

At the beginning, a murder/suicide theory seemed remotely possible if HSs cause of death had been different than that of her husbands.

 

[SeesSeas]

It is my understanding that establishing Time of Death, is partly speculatively and not always exact. Especially if the bodies have not been discovered for many hours or days. It is also my understanding that no official statement has been issued regarding the times of death, especially that HS died 6-9 hours before BS. I personally do not believe there was such a time difference between deaths.

However if there was such a difference in times of death, it leads me to more questions.

One, could the assailants be interrogating BS about some issue during the time after HS was killed?

Second, if BS killed HS in a fit of rage as proposed by the M/S theorists, no doubt the rage would have subsided during those 6-9 hours and the 'normal' BS would not be suicidal.

Third, many suicides involve significant intake of drugs or alcohol. Logically if BS had killed HS, and in those 6-9 hours he became distraught and despondent, consumption of drugs and or alcohol would be reasonable.

However I do not believe the toxicology reports showed their existence. As well the use of alcohol or drugs would make the complex staging process even more unbelievable.

Also, it is possible Honey arrived home several hours before Barry (after the meeting with the architects), so the killers could have killed Honey at 5:30ish pm and then killed Barry at 9:00ish pm.
How the investigation into the deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman turned from murder-suicide to double homicide
May 09, 2018
Barry and Honey Sherman were both at Apotex headquarters late in the afternoon on Wednesday, Dec. 13. They had a meeting with architects from the firm designing their new home in Forest Hill, an upscale Toronto neighbourhood.

Honey left Apotex first, before 5 p.m. Barry, founder of the generic drug giant, left in the early evening. His last known email from his Apotex account was sent between 6:30 p.m. and 8:30 p.m., sources at Apotex say. The Star could not determine the contents of the email, but it was business-related. The Star could not determine if anyone at Apotex responded to the email.

 

[MistyWaters]

Also, it is possible Honey arrived home several hours before Barry (after the meeting with the architects), so the killers could have killed Honey at 5:30ish pm and then killed Barry at 9:00ish pm.
How the investigation into the deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman turned from murder-suicide to double homicide
May 09, 2018
Barry and Honey Sherman were both at Apotex headquarters late in the afternoon on Wednesday, Dec. 13. They had a meeting with architects from the firm designing their new home in Forest Hill, an upscale Toronto neighbourhood.

Honey left Apotex first, before 5 p.m. Barry, founder of the generic drug giant, left in the early evening. His last known email from his Apotex account was sent between 6:30 p.m. and 8:30 p.m., sources at Apotex say. The Star could not determine the contents of the email, but it was business-related. The Star could not determine if anyone at Apotex responded to the email.

If there’s any truth to this, TPS was interested in the next day, Dec 14th as well.

“.....Const. David Hopkinson had no comment on this or the case and made the point he would not be provided with an update on canvas activity.

But neighbours in the area tell The Toronto Sun that officers have been politely asking for video surveillance files from in and around Dec. 14 — the day the Shermans are believed to have died from ligature neck compression.

Residents say police are interested in potential footage of street movements of both pedestrians and vehicles. That they were talking to home owners on Lauderdale, which is tucked away from the Old Colony feeder streets, created a buzz....”
WARMINGTON: Sherman investigation expands to neighbouring streets