TX TX - Julie Moseley, 9, Mary Trlica, 17, Lisa Wilson, 14, Fort Worth, 23 Dec 1974 - #2

[Ozoner]

Gruffin, The Tape Recorder Man was cleared a long time ago. Lloyd Lee Welch murdered the Lyons sisters.

He abducted and raped them, anyway. His father and/or uncle may have murdered them. It's difficult to know how much of his confession to believe.

 

[TGwebs]

He abducted and raped them, anyway. His father and/or uncle may have murdered them. It's difficult to know how much of his confession to believe.

I don't think it's a good idea to get into the weeds too much with the Lyons sisters case in this thread except to point out the obvious similarities and the fact Welch could be responsible for both crimes.
As far as getting into his confession and whether or not you trust it, I think it would be more appropriate to post your thoughts in the Lyons girls thread unless you are going to specifically relate your feelings back to the Fort Worth Trio. We have enough people casually popping in here and getting confused as it is. IMO opinion everything we discuss here should be related to Rachel, Renee, and Julie.

 

[Parksestx]

I don't think it's a good idea to get into the weeds too much with the Lyons sisters case in this thread except to point out the obvious similarities and the fact Welch could be responsible for both crimes.
As far as getting into his confession and whether or not you trust it, I think it would be more appropriate to post your thoughts in the Lyons girls thread unless you are going to specifically relate your feelings back to the Fort Worth Trio. We have enough people casually popping in here and getting confused as it is. IMO opinion everything we discuss here should be related to Rachel, Renee, and Julie.

Thank you and AGREED!! I've never seen so many confused rumors and speculation being thrown around as "facts" on a case I've researched prior to this one. Part of that, I'm sure, is because it's still an open investigation with FWPD and it doesn't seem like much "fact" has been leaked out of the police department in 44 years. However, there are a lot of speculations both here and in that Facebook group that seem to start being quoted as legitimate fact. It's annoying to someone who just tries to put together the ACTUAL facts.

 

[Ozoner]

I don't think it's a good idea to get into the weeds too much with the Lyons sisters case in this thread except to point out the obvious similarities and the fact Welch could be responsible for both crimes.
As far as getting into his confession and whether or not you trust it, I think it would be more appropriate to post your thoughts in the Lyons girls thread unless you are going to specifically relate your feelings back to the Fort Worth Trio. We have enough people casually popping in here and getting confused as it is. IMO opinion everything we discuss here should be related to Rachel, Renee, and Julie.

Actually, you posted inaccurate information about the Lyon (no s) sisters' case, so it was necessary for me to "get into the weeds" in order to clarify the matter. Since LLW has been mentioned is a suspect, information about him and his known crimes needs to be represented accurately. His uncle worked as a mall security guard, and an unknown security guard has been mentioned as as suspect in this case. Do we know whether Richard Welch was in Texas in 1974?
Discussion of other suspects may be moot if Operation Bring Them Up finds a car connected to Tommy Trlica with three skeletons in it.
Does anyone think TT might off himself the night before the cars are brought up? I know there was some back and forth in the 70s regarding the Supreme Court and death penalty statutes, but I don't remember the details. Would TT be eligible for the death penalty in this case?

 

[Parksestx]

Actually, you posted inaccurate information about the Lyon (no s) sisters' case, so it was necessary for me to "get into the weeds" in order to clarify the matter. Since LLW has been mentioned is a suspect, information about him and his known crimes needs to be represented accurately. His uncle worked as a mall security guard, and an unknown security guard has been mentioned as as suspect in this case. Do we know whether Richard Welch was in Texas in 1974?
Discussion of other suspects may be moot if Operation Bring Them Up finds a car connected to Tommy Trlica with three skeletons in it.
Does anyone think TT might off himself the night before the cars are brought up? I know there was some back and forth in the 70s regarding the Supreme Court and death penalty statutes, but I don't remember the details. Would TT be eligible for the death penalty in this case?

Technically, yes. One of the girls was younger than 10 years of age. A case could be made for kidnapping as well. Both conditions allow the death penalty to be put on the table.

 

[Via Marple]

Actually, you posted inaccurate information about the Lyon (no s) sisters' case, so it was necessary for me to "get into the weeds" in order to clarify the matter. Since LLW has been mentioned is a suspect, information about him and his known crimes needs to be represented accurately. His uncle worked as a mall security guard, and an unknown security guard has been mentioned as as suspect in this case. Do we know whether Richard Welch was in Texas in 1974?
Discussion of other suspects may be moot if Operation Bring Them Up finds a car connected to Tommy Trlica with three skeletons in it.
Does anyone think TT might off himself the night before the cars are brought up? I know there was some back and forth in the 70s regarding the Supreme Court and death penalty statutes, but I don't remember the details. Would TT be eligible for the death penalty in this case?

Discussion of other suspects may be moot if Operation Bring Them Up finds a car connected to Tommy Trlica with three skeletons in it.

Thanks for making this point succinctly. I am refraining from more speculation, but keeping everything crossed for the outcome.

 

[TGwebs]

Actually, you posted inaccurate information about the Lyon (no s) sisters' case, so it was necessary for me to "get into the weeds" in order to clarify the matter. Since LLW has been mentioned is a suspect, information about him and his known crimes needs to be represented accurately. His uncle worked as a mall security guard, and an unknown security guard has been mentioned as as suspect in this case. Do we know whether Richard Welch was in Texas in 1974?
Discussion of other suspects may be moot if Operation Bring Them Up finds a car connected to Tommy Trlica with three skeletons in it.
Does anyone think TT might off himself the night before the cars are brought up? I know there was some back and forth in the 70s regarding the Supreme Court and death penalty statutes, but I don't remember the details. Would TT be eligible for the death penalty in this case?

Ozoner, I posted nothing inaccurate about the Lyons Girls case, but regardless of that, there is no point in discussing the Lyons Girls unless it specifically relates to the Fort Worth Trio. Your post didn't do that. It was a standalone post that didn't even mention the Trio. This one does, which is much appreciated. Like I said previously, I think it's important to stay on track and make sure that all posts here are related to Rachel, Renee, and Julie. It just gets too confusing to new people otherwise.

Also, there are no unknown security guard suspects in this case. There are two security guards. Bill Hutchins, who was interviewed by media and the FW police department, came forward and said he saw the girls sitting in the vehicle with another security guard. LE told NBC5 that they interviewed that security guard back in 2001 and he denied being with the girls. This doesn't mean that neither men weren't or aren't suspects, just that their identities are not unknown. At least not to LE.


As far as Richard Welch I'm not sure if he was in Texas in 1974. The FBI has not released a timeline for him like they did for his nephew. I would imagine this is because Richard Welch had a fairly stable lifestyle in comparison to Lloyd Lee Welch who was a drifter who traveled and worked short stints at a time as a landscaper or carnival worker in various states (including Texas in 1974).

And yes, it's very possible that discussion of suspects will soon be a moot point. I don't think that will be the case, but I'm hoping I'm wrong because I want these families to receive answers. I've always been supportive of the dive because I feel so deeply for their plight and if they want this stone overturned, I want that for them also. And if it simply ends with this theory being eliminated there's value in that, too.

 

[TGwebs]

Thank you and AGREED!! I've never seen so many confused rumors and speculation being thrown around as "facts" on a case I've researched prior to this one. Part of that, I'm sure, is because it's still an open investigation with FWPD and it doesn't seem like much "fact" has been leaked out of the police department in 44 years. However, there are a lot of speculations both here and in that Facebook group that seem to start being quoted as legitimate fact. It's annoying to someone who just tries to put together the ACTUAL facts.

Parksestx, yes, rumor and fact often get conflated in this case. The majority of us do our best to keep the two separated here.

 

[Ozoner]

Ozoner, I posted nothing inaccurate about the Lyons Girls case, but regardless of that, there is no point in discussing the Lyons Girls unless it specifically relates to the Fort Worth Trio. Your post didn't do that. It was a standalone post that didn't even mention the Trio. This one does, which is much appreciated. Like I said previously, I think it's important to stay on track and make sure that all posts here are related to Rachel, Renee, and Julie. It just gets too confusing to new people otherwise.

Also, there are no unknown security guard suspects in this case. There are two security guards. Bill Hutchins, who was interviewed by media and the FW police department, came forward and said he saw the girls sitting in the vehicle with another security guard. LE told NBC5 that they interviewed that security guard back in 2001 and he denied being with the girls. This doesn't mean that neither men weren't or aren't suspects, just that their identities are not unknown. At least not to LE.


As far as Richard Welch I'm not sure if he was in Texas in 1974. The FBI has not released a timeline for him like they did for his nephew. I would imagine this is because Richard Welch had a fairly stable lifestyle in comparison to Lloyd Lee Welch who was a drifter who traveled and worked short stints at a time as a landscaper or carnival worker in various states (including Texas in 1974).

And yes, it's very possible that discussion of suspects will soon be a moot point. I don't think that will be the case, but I'm hoping I'm wrong because I want these families to receive answers. I've always been supportive of the dive because I feel so deeply for their plight and if they want this stone overturned, I want that for them also. And if it simply ends with this theory being eliminated there's value in that, too.

Your inaccurate info was that LLW murdered the Lyon girls, which is possible but not known. However, I agree that we can table that discussion.

The security guard that Bill Hutchins saw is the suspect to whom I was referring. He isn't unknown to LE, but he is unknown to us. It's very unlikely that it was Richard Welch unless he can be placed in Ft. Worth in '74. Some people think it was Debardeleben, but I doubt that; I don't think LE would have withheld that information from the public. That security guard is my no. 2 suspect right now, behind TT.

If a vehicle of Tommy Trlica's went missing around the time of the crime, then there's an awfully good chance that the same vehicle was disposed of with the girls' bodies in it. That doesn't mean it's one of the three vehicles to be raised this month, but I wouldn't take a bet that it isn't.

 

[TGwebs]

Your inaccurate info was that LLW murdered the Lyon girls, which is possible but not known. However, I agree that we can table that discussion.

The security guard that Bill Hutchins saw is the suspect to whom I was referring. He isn't unknown to LE, but he is unknown to us. It's very unlikely that it was Richard Welch unless he can be placed in Ft. Worth in '74. Some people think it was Debardeleben, but I doubt that; I don't think LE would have withheld that information from the public. That security guard is my no. 2 suspect right now, behind TT.

If a vehicle of Tommy Trlica's went missing around the time of the crime, then there's an awfully good chance that the same vehicle was disposed of with the girls' bodies in it. That doesn't mean it's one of the three vehicles to be raised this month, but I wouldn't take a bet that it isn't.

You're assuming that Bill Hutchins was telling the truth about what he saw. That's a pretty big assumption. This sighting never seemed credible to me. The timing didn't make any sense, nor did the fact that Hutchins claimed he never heard about the missing girls again, so therefore didn't follow up with LE after his initial call.

What are the chances that a security guard who was employed by Sears, the parking lot where the car was found, who was working the day of the disappearance never heard anything about the girls again? In fact, don't you think he would likely have learned they were missing that very evening? Even if he didn't follow the news it defies belief that the topic wouldn't be the subject of discussion at his workplace.

In addition, his story lacked specifics in most areas except for where the girls were sitting and the fact that they were laughing and enjoying themselves with a security guard at 11:30 at night when they knew their families would be worried sick.

 

[Deleted member 165916]

Thank you and AGREED!! I've never seen so many confused rumors and speculation being thrown around as "facts" on a case I've researched prior to this one. Part of that, I'm sure, is because it's still an open investigation with FWPD and it doesn't seem like much "fact" has been leaked out of the police department in 44 years. However, there are a lot of speculations both here and in that Facebook group that seem to start being quoted as legitimate fact. It's annoying to someone who just tries to put together the ACTUAL facts.

I hear you, whoever you are. I have eyes and ears on that Facebook Group. I have no voice. I am frustrated by the amount of "disinformation" that is floating around over there. I feel responsible that my dialogue here has resulted in that. This thread is an accumulation of ideas that do not always begin with "IMO." I hope what I say next, finds its way over to that group - many of them new...including cousins and others not familiar with the FACTS, and lacking legal experience with criminal investigations. From the beginning Rachel's brother had many strongly held "opinions" based on family stories, myths, rumors, wrong-doing by a certain pro-bono PI, and decades of habit. My strategy to unseat some of this in order to accept other possibilities was to take what was accepted as "truth" by turning it on its head. It worked, except when it didn't. Progress, and then everything in reverse. If you inspire someone to look in a different direction you cannot predict 100% what that will produce. I was influencing but not directing. Guiding, but not steering. If all of those people over there read my posts over here, back to back, they would not be confused. Too many people have jumped into the deep end since June. They surface and start barking. You cannot wade in too slowly. You cannot expect to have finger-tip knowledge in ten minutes. It's annoying.

 

[Deleted member 165916]

You're assuming that Bill Hutchins was telling the truth about what he saw. That's a pretty big assumption. This sighting never seemed credible to me. The timing didn't make any sense, nor did the fact that Hutchins claimed he never heard about the missing girls again, so therefore didn't follow up with LE after his initial call.

What are the chances that a security guard who was employed by Sears, the parking lot where the car was found, who was working the day of the disappearance never heard anything about the girls again? In fact, don't you think he would likely have learned they were missing that very evening? Even if he didn't follow the news it defies belief that the topic wouldn't be the subject of discussion at his workplace.

In addition, his story lacked specifics in most areas except for where the girls were sitting and the fact that they were laughing and enjoying themselves with a security guard at 11:30 at night when they knew their families would be worried sick.

I know this is nit-picking, but add to everything you said that a number of family members, including the husband and sister, were huddled up with a few police officers standing outside their black-and-whites, scratching their heads at 11:30pm. No way that security guard story is anything but a myth.

 

[TGwebs]

I hear you, whoever you are. I have eyes and ears on that Facebook Group. I have no voice. I am frustrated by the amount of "disinformation" that is floating around over there. I feel responsible that my dialogue here has resulted in that. This thread is an accumulation of ideas that do not always begin with "IMO." I hope what I say next, finds its way over to that group - many of them new...including cousins and others not familiar with the FACTS, and lacking legal experience with criminal investigations. From the beginning Rachel's brother had many strongly held "opinions" based on family stories, myths, rumors, wrong-doing by a certain pro-bono PI, and decades of habit. My strategy to unseat some of this in order to accept other possibilities was to take what was accepted as "truth" by turning it on its head. It worked, except when it didn't. Progress, and then everything in reverse. If you inspire someone to look in a different direction you cannot predict 100% what that will produce. I was influencing but not directing. Guiding, but not steering. If all of those people over there read my posts over here, back to back, they would not be confused. Too many people have jumped into the deep end since June. They surface and start barking. You cannot wade in too slowly. You cannot expect to have finger-tip knowledge in ten minutes. It's annoying.

FW Cat - you are so right about many of your posts trickling back to the FW group and getting people confused. I lurk and read over there, too, and constantly see people quoting your theories as fact, sometimes not even accurately, and then find themselves unable to remember where they learned the information when questioned. This is not your fault. You are a very intelligent person who has put a great deal of time and research into this case. Many of your theories are also based on sources you can't share. It's natural that people are going to be interested in your posts. The unfortunate thing is that the FB group isn't moderated and people post without sourcing and attribution. On this forum we're good at keeping each other in check and avoiding that kind of behavior.
That being said, I think what you're saying about people from the FB group going back to read your posts should apply to this group, too. Not just your posts, but as many posts as possible from both threads. I urge people to at least read an article or two before contributing.

 

[TGwebs]

I know this is nit-picking, but add to everything you said that a number of family members, including the husband and sister, were huddled up with a few police officers standing outside their black-and-whites, scratching their heads at 11:30pm. No way that security guard story is anything but a myth.

Yes. That's what I meant by the timing! No way that happened. Bill Hutchins was not telling the truth IMO.

 

[Deleted member 165916]

FW Cat - you are so right about many of your posts trickling back to the FW group and getting people confused. I lurk and read over there, too, and constantly see people quoting your theories as fact, sometimes not even accurately, and then find themselves unable to remember where they learned the information when questioned. This is not your fault. You are a very intelligent person who has put a great deal of time and research into this case. Many of your theories are also based on sources you can't share. It's natural that people are going to be interested in your posts. The unfortunate thing is that the FB group isn't moderated and people post without sourcing and attribution. On this forum we're good at keeping each other in check and avoiding that kind of behavior.
That being said, I think what you're saying about people from the FB group going back to read your posts should apply to this group, too. Not just your posts, but as many posts as possible from both threads. I urge people to at least read an article or two before contributing.

They never quote the number of times I state that I know nothing, witnessed nothing, LOL. The most outrageous rumor I started is that TT confessed to writing the letter. How the hell would I know that? All I said was that I would love to see the look on R's face when the police tell him TT confessed to writing it. Because he is obsessed with proving it when the letter is proof of nothing. Oh well.....

 

[TGwebs]

They never quote the number of times I state that I know nothing, witnessed nothing, LOL. The most outrageous rumor I started is that TT confessed to writing the letter. How the hell would I know that? All I said was that I would love to see the look on R's face when the police tell him TT confessed to writing it. Because he is obsessed with proving it when the letter is proof of nothing. Oh well.....

I know! I've read that there numerous times, too! And I couldn't agree with you more about the letter. It's puzzling and interesting but not proof of anything.

 

[Via Marple]

FW Cat, you know I had read all the posts, but that was some time ago now. Could you refresh my memory - I remember you had an explanation of how the letter was written (certainly not by TT). I thought you did attach a certain importance to it, within the whole story. It wasn't just a prank. Although I did later theorise that the envelope was not a xmas card size, I do find the rest very believable.

The main difference between here and Facebook, as I know it, is that we all have to provide evidence (from MSM generally) to what we are saying, or be a verified insider, or have to spell out literally IMO, MOO, etc. Anyone reading this and wants more details, can look up those rules and etiquette threads.

 

[Via Marple]

Yes I do read that Facebook group now. After having been pointed to that direction! Have to know how to sift through the mess for any gems of information, not easy.

 

[Ozoner]

I know this is nit-picking, but add to everything you said that a number of family members, including the husband and sister, were huddled up with a few police officers standing outside their black-and-whites, scratching their heads at 11:30pm. No way that security guard story is anything but a myth.

Yes. That's what I meant by the timing! No way that happened. Bill Hutchins was not telling the truth IMO.

Everyone is entitled to his or her own evaluation of the evidence. However, the only meaningful argument I'm hearing against Hutchins' story is that the 11:30 time doesn't fit. Suppose he was mistaken about the time; that doesn't mean that the rest of the story is false. What if he had actually seen the girls with the security guard a night or two prior? That would still be relevant.
I would caution people not to make assumptions about what someone else would have known. Some people don't follow the news in any form and don't make small talk with co workers, either.

 

[TGwebs]

Everyone is entitled to his or her own evaluation of the evidence. However, the only meaningful argument I'm hearing against Hutchins' story is that the 11:30 time doesn't fit. Suppose he was mistaken about the time; that doesn't mean that the rest of the story is false. What if he had actually seen the girls with the security guard a night or two prior? That would still be relevant.
I would caution people not to make assumptions about what someone else would have known. Some people don't follow the news in any form and don't make small talk with co workers, either.

It would have been impossible for him to see the girls a night or two prior. Julie was only there by unfortunate chance that day. She and Rachel barely knew each other.

And although not every one makes small talk at work, Bill Hutchins was a security guard for the very store in whose parking lot the car was found. It wouldn't have been small talk. It would have been important work related information. It defies credibility that all mall security would not be aware of the disappearance, especially anyone who worked at Sears. Yet he claimed he only learned of the disappearance from news reports a couple days later.

Mr. Hutchins was also a former police officer who claimed he left the FWPD to take the job as a Sears security guard, which makes it even more difficult to believe he wouldn't have followed up.

His statement was extremely vague. He says he had some sort of confrontation with the other security guard but doesn't say about what. Just that he ended up apologizing for using foul language. He also says he made conversation with the girls but didn't say about what. The only things he was specific about were the impossible time, the seating arrangement, and his contention the girls were laughing and there willingly. Rachel was married, Renee had a Christmas party to attend with a boy who'd just given her a promise ring, and Julie was only nine years old. There is no way they were out joking and laughing that night.

And again, the police interviewed the other security guard.