Found Deceased CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #22

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To me it seems inhumanly cruel. I have dealt, for decades, with filling boats with diesel, and cleaning bilges, and hoping that I didn't kill myself by siphoning gas, climbing up on a ladder to fill the house tank with heating oil, filling kerosene lamps, filling up and pumping up the gas coleman lanterns, mixing thick oil into the outboard motor gas and making sure it's mixed in, and cleaning myself up afterwards. I can't imagine purposely doing that even to a dead body. But, do we even have proof that they were dead when he threw them in the toxic oil?

I absolutely agree it's inhumanly cruel. I just don't find it any more cruel than say left to be further desecrated by elements and animals. (In that area there's a strong likelihood of coyotes and such and that bothers the crumb out of me) And I could be reading too much in to the separation of mama and babies. That's just been my gut reaction thus far.
 
I absolutely agree it's inhumanly cruel. I just don't find it any more cruel than say left to be further desecrated by elements and animals. (In that area there's a strong likelihood of coyotes and such and that bothers the crumb out of me) And I could be reading too much in to the separation of mama and babies. That's just been my gut reaction thus far.

I think it was a question of logistics - SW simply would not fit in the tank - she was closeby though if thats any comfort.
 
Pillowcases and a bedsheet were found in a trash can at the residence. One sheet was found at the dump site.

I disagree as to the significance of Shanann being separated, especially in light of the fact that the kids were separated from each other (separate tanks). I still think it was a logistical issue.

But you’re right, everyone is entitled to their opinion based on the facts, and those opinions will obviously differ.


Thanks! Am I making up that the kids blankets were missing? I thought I read that here. Not necessarily their bedding blankets, but lovie type blankies.
 
Both methods are horrible, but I agree, the strangulation is far more cold.

Smothering allows one to kill without looking your victim in the eyes. It is another thing altogether, to be able to watch the life slip from another’s eyes, especially those of your children. How sick.
Unlike shooting someone, strangulation or smothering takes some time, plenty of time for 'deliberation'.
 
I wasn't questioning it, the poster that that reply was to claimed that LE was being creative with that charge. I wasn't sure what she meant.

Because they can't charge him for the murder of a fetus, there's no such law, so instead they have used this more obscure charge to at least get him on something to acknowledge Nico's lost life. It's the best they can do within the laws of CO. So that's them being "creative". Clearly LE want to acknowledge the loss.
 
I absolutely agree it's inhumanly cruel. I just don't find it any more cruel than say left to be further desecrated by elements and animals. (In that area there's a strong likelihood of coyotes and such and that bothers the crumb out of me) And I could be reading too much in to the separation of mama and babies. That's just been my gut reaction thus far.
I still think that he couldn't fit her in the hole or that someone was coming and he saw the dust trail on the road. It was daylight and over 80 deg per AB. But, you know, he didn't have to take over the burial decision, they could have had a decent burial, he chose to do the cruel and haphazard burials all by himself. He could have called 911, tried to save them or legally verified their deaths, we don't even know if they were dead or not.
 
Our VI stated that it was suspected SW & the girls’ ailments were perhaps exaggerated or non-existent. That was where the discussion began.

I think it was before that - i think someone asked whether MSBP had been discussed and then the AI was asked the question. Shall i look for the post?
 
I absolutely agree it's inhumanly cruel. I just don't find it any more cruel than say left to be further desecrated by elements and animals. (In that area there's a strong likelihood of coyotes and such and that bothers the crumb out of me) And I could be reading too much in to the separation of mama and babies. That's just been my gut reaction thus far.

IMO you’re right to see potential significance in the separation of mama & the babies.
 
Thanks for the post about bias , objectivity & training.

Just want to query you on this part:"......along with the perspectives of others- witnesses and VI's who didn't loathe Shanann, and actually liked both parents....."

Gitana, I don't recollect Trinket saying anything about loathing SW nor about disliking any of the parents.
Loathe is a very strong word indeed.

The parents meaning CW and SW. As to the rest, we can form our own opinions based on what has been posted here. That's my sense.
 
Right, and I think that's why so many find it especially disturbing that they were hidden in oil tanks. Burying someone is pretty standard but throwing them into an oil barrel seems especially cold.
Yes, we bury our beloved pets wrapped in their favourite blanket too with stones and dirt. We do not just throw them away in oil tanks.
 
With respect, no one has stopped anyone from discussing some theory. Others disagreeing with you is not preventing you from discussing it and because there may be more people disagreeing does not mean that you are being silenced
You have the right to post your opinion and others have the right to post theirs in relation to yours.
I agree and I have every intention of still posting my observations. Unfortunately when you are in the minority it is quite difficult to be heard over others who don't share your views/observations. I have witnessed many say they are hesitant to join in the discussion as their theories are shot down, ridiculed and lost in the midst of others trying to prove their point. Essentially being drowned out by the masses.
 
It's okay. Imo, it was more of an inference by the readers than an implication by the writers.

Sure a roller coaster ride though!
Yes, I think writers were painted by a wide brush with a color someone else picked out.

Okay, that doesn't make any sense, lol.

I am now understanding that there was a misunderstanding of the conversation and I also think people are taking what is happening on other online discussions and applying the vibe here. I'm not on the FB discussions and didn't realize until today that SW is vilified elsewhere. I think people simply musing over ideas here on WS got lumped into the "SW is a villian" category without our knowledge (or at least without my knowledge). I wondered where the strong reactions came from.

jmo
 
Curious in cases where a public defender is involved (or maybe this applies to hiring private defense attorneys as well) -

1. How much time can the lawyers spend with their clients while building a case? I imagine they could easily spend quite a bit of time...
2. I believe I read it isn't the lawyers' job to prove their innocence, but to provide them with a fair trial. What if the defendant doesn't admit to anything, or in this case, only to certain things? If they don't admit to any wrongdoing, then the attorneys try to prove their innocence, but in CWs case, the attorneys have to believe what he's told them? Will they try to grill him for the truth (assuming what he's said isn't true)?
3. It must be difficult in many cases if the lawyers don't believe one iota of what the client is telling them. Do they try to build a defense case around ridiculousness, making themselves look ridiculous?

Let me try to answer your question. (Sorry in advance if this answer gets too long.)

I used to do some criminal defense work back in the early part of my career. I practiced in a rural area, and if you were an attorney practicing in that county and you did any trial work and you didn't work for the district attorney's office, then you were expected to take court-appointed cases representing indigent criminal defendants. So it wasn't a big part of my practice, but I did enough to get my feet wet. Since I was taking criminal court appointments anyway, I also did some private pay criminal defense cases.

I digress, but I will say that part of the reason that I became a lawyer in a rural area was the influence of To Kill a Mockingbird and the ideal of Atticus Finch.

Some of the differences between private and public defenders (PDs) are small and some are large. We presume both are competent and want to do a good job. Court-appointed public defenders are paid a small fraction of the money demanded by private criminal defense attorneys. For instance, (this information is old) I might have charged a private-pay client $2,500 to defend a DWI case; whereas in a court-appointed case, the county might pay me $500.

Today, many areas, especially more populous areas, are served by public defenders offices, which are attorneys hired by an agency of the county or state and paid a salary with some benefits. (I need to look up whether PDs are paid as much as ADAs with similar experience. They should be!) But these PDs have a caseload: that is, a number of cases that they are assigned at one time. Generally, they have lots of cases and lots of clients to represent, so it is physically impossible to spend much time with any one client. Private attorneys have the luxury of spending more time because they have fewer cases, and that's one reason they charge more.

In a high-profile case like the present one, I'm sure several PD attorneys, investigators and support staff are assigned to this case. I cannot say how many other cases those attorneys may have on their caseload, but it is understood that a significant amount of time will need to be devoted to this case.

Not sure about Colorado, but in the state where I used to practice, if the case was a "capital murder" case (meaning that the punishment range included the possibility of the death sentence), then defense attorneys on those cases had to be specially certified for competency.

The defense's job is to 1) ensure the defendant gets a fair trial; 2) obtain a not guilty verdict if possible; and 3) obtain the lowest sentence possible.

The defendant gets to direct the strategy of the defense; meaning, he gets to decide whether he is going to testify; the nature of the defense; etc. The lawyer, with the assistance of the client, makes what we could call "tactical" decisions; such as what witnesses to interview, subpoena to testify, what questions to ask at trial, etc.

The defense lawyer has two loyalties here. He is an officer of the court, which means he can't lie or mislead the court or jury (he cannot put on evidence that he knows is false), and he is bound by the law and the rules of procedure and evidence. He also has a duty to inform the client of the law and the facts, so the client can make informed decisions; and he is bound to follow the defendant's stated strategy, if he can do so within the bounds of the law and ethics.

Some attorneys say you shouldn't ask the client if he is guilty or not because you don't really want to know the answer to that question. I always asked my client for their version of the facts, and I took them as true unless my common sense told me otherwise. If confronted with a situation where the client's story doesn't seem possible, then I would ask him about it (not grill). You always want your defense to seem as plausible as possible. You can't build a credible case around something that is ridiculous (your word).

In the end, I wasn't always 100% comfortable practicing criminal defense because it didn't set well with me having to establish reasonable doubt when I didn't believe it myself. There's a line there somewhere, and I wasn't comfortable stirring up confusion when it didn't seem appropriate. (Other defense attorneys can chime in here---lots of them do a great job without it bothering their consciences, and they do it ethically.)

I hope that helps. Sorry so long.

Edited for clarification
 
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I still think that he couldn't fit her in the hole or that someone was coming and he saw the dust trail on the road. It was daylight and over 80 deg per AB. But, you know, he didn't have to take over the burial decision, they could have had a decent burial, he chose to do the cruel and haphazard burials all by himself. He could have called 911, tried to save them or legally verified their deaths, we don't even know if they were dead or not.

He could have kept his hands to himself and just filed for divorce. I assure you my reaction to where he dumped them is not in any way condoning or excusing anything he did.
 
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