TX - Botham Shem Jean, 26, killed when police officer entered his apartment, Dallas, Sept 2018 #3

[Rocco]

This is why American LEOs are now drilled and trained to respond exactly as AG claimed she did.

*snipped by me*
Why is it that not one person who trains LEOs, or anyone in LE, is coming out to make that claim and stand by her actions?

 

[Al Hoffman]

Other occupations are more dangerous and have higher death on the job numbers, but no one goes around thanking farmers and loggers and construction workers.
LEOs are not walking targets. Police work is not as dangerous as they would have us believe, but it makes for a good cover when an officer screws up and shoots someone who is unarmed/suicidal/deaf/at home chilling out.

Police Work Isn't as Dangerous as You May Think
However, the misconception that police work is dangerous, propagated by the media and police unions, could become a self-fulfilling prophecy— especially if police believe that they are going into deadly battle when they head out on patrol. They are likely to be nervous and trigger-happy and might affect their decision-making in a stressful situation.

Dramatic Drop in Police Officer Deaths in 2017
According to data released by the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund, as of Thursday, 128 officers had died in the line of duty in 2017. Forty-four of them were shot and killed. This is a 10 percent decrease from last year, which had 143 deaths, with 66 shot and killed.

Nice graphics, looks like a MSM article. (Link?) Also, your stats are incorrect. There has been an increase in LEO firearm related fatalities (LEO-FRF), especially ambush style attacks, not a decrease! (See below)

"Other occupations are more dangerous and have higher death on the job numbers"

Do you have a link for this stat or a MSM article that supports this?

<modsnip removed insult>

Farmers die in preventable industrial accidents. But the PTO that takes their arm off at the shoulder did not "act" to kill the farmer. The farmer did that to himself. Same with loggers, the tree did not intend to fall on anyone, the logger just happened to be standing in the wrong place at the wrong time. Though, I will accept a degree of sentient intent if a Bull gores a Rancher!

You cite, and reference a 10% drop in police firearm related deaths from 2016 compared to 2017. This is not correct.

Reading the source article shows that there was a 10% decrease in LEO traffic related fatalities from 2016 to 2017. And a 33% decrease in LEO firearm related fatalities from year to year. That is a pretty significant drop, what caused it? Apparently, this is a statistical fluke caused by an unprecedented increase in ambush style attacks on LEOs in 2016 compared to 2015, this bucking the overall decreasing trend seen in LEO-FRFs since 1973!

To quote from the original article:

"Firearms related fatalities peaked in 1973 with 84 officers shot and killed that year. Since then, the annual average has decreased from 63 in the 1970's, to 29 in the 2000's. In 2016, as a result of unprecedented ambush style attacks on LEOs, the number of firearms related fatalities rose to 66."

Contrary to your arguments presented above, this article, and the trends presented in it, shows that LEO's are increasingly becoming targets for firearms related fatalities (e.g "wearing bullseyes).

The significant fall in LEO-FRFs from 1973 to the 2000's can be attributed to both significant post-Vietnam improvements in Emergency Medical Response times and training along with improved Med-Surg GSW management; this along with improved firearms training as pioneered by departments such as LAPD, and increased use of body armor.

Continued low average yearly numbers in the 40's are likely attributable to continued Emergency Medical management techniques and blood clotting tech transfers from the military to civilian sector. Along with improvements in ballistic armor, and its now almost universal use, compared to the 1970's.

But, an increase in average yearly numbers for LEO-FRFs from 29 to the 40's, despite the tech improvements noted above, is concerning especially with a sudden spike of LEI-FRFs seen in 2016. This indicates a continued and worsening hostile environment for LEO's in this country.

 

[Jennifer17]

*snipped by me*
Why is it that not one person who trains LEOs, or anyone in LE, is coming out to make that claim and stand by her actions?

Police in other countries are not trained to escalate situations by shooting first and ask questions later.
They are trained to negotiate.

 

[Jennifer17]

Nice graphics, looks like a MSM article. (Link?) Also, your stats are incorrect. There has been an increase in LEO firearm related fatalities (LEO-FRF), especially ambush style attacks, not a decrease! (See below)

"Other occupations are more dangerous and have higher death on the job numbers"

Do you have a link for this stat or a MSM article that supports this?

Outside of the military and LE/Security, I am hard pressed to think of any other trades where it is expected, as part of your job, that another hairless, thinking ape (just like you), will be trying to kill you.

Farmers die in preventable industrial accidents. But the PTO that takes their arm off at the shoulder did not "act" to kill the farmer. The farmer did that to himself. Same with loggers, the tree did not intend to fall on anyone, the logger just happened to be standing in the wrong place at the wrong time. Though, I will accept a degree of sentient intent if a Bull gores a Rancher!

You cite, and reference a 10% drop in police firearm related deaths from 2016 compared to 2017. This is not correct.

Reading the source article shows that there was a 10% decrease in LEO traffic related fatalities from 2016 to 2017. And a 33% decrease in LEO firearm related fatalities from year to year. That is a pretty significant drop, what caused it? Apparently, this is a statistical fluke caused by an unprecedented increase in ambush style attacks on LEOs in 2016 compared to 2015, this bucking the overall decreasing trend seen in LEO-FRFs since 1973!

To quote from the original article:

"Firearms related fatalities peaked in 1973 with 84 officers shot and killed that year. Since then, the annual average has decreased from 63 in the 1970's, to 29 in the 2000's. In 2016, as a result of unprecedented ambush style attacks on LEOs, the number of firearms related fatalities rose to 66."

Contrary to your arguments presented above, this article, and the trends presented in it, shows that LEO's are increasingly becoming targets for firearms related fatalities (e.g "wearing bullseyes).

The significant fall in LEO-FRFs from 1973 to the 2000's can be attributed to both significant post-Vietnam improvements in Emergency Medical Response times and training along with improved Med-Surg GSW management; this along with improved firearms training as pioneered by departments such as LAPD, and increased use of body armor.

Continued low average yearly numbers in the 40's are likely attributable to continued Emergency Medical management techniques and blood clotting tech transfers from the military to civilian sector. Along with improvements in ballistic armor, and its now almost universal use, compared to the 1970's.

But, an increase in average yearly numbers for LEO-FRFs from 29 to the 40's, despite the tech improvements noted above, is concerning especially with a sudden spike of LEI-FRFs seen in 2016. This indicates a continued and worsening hostile environment for LEO's in this country.

BBM. Botham Jane did not act to kill himself either. She acted to kill him.
And who are you calling a hairless ape?

 

[Al Hoffman]

The a large percentage of people in our jails today are not there for crimes at common law which require a victim or injury. They are there for statutory violations in which the only "victim" is the king (the sovereign state is King) who claims to be offended.

Many are there because they are addicts, mentally ill, got high, or simply couldn't afford to pay traffic or license fines and fees. Let's not forget being unable to pay child support and then being incarcerated while the state or county king profits daily, yet the alleged victims, our children receive not one thin dime from those profits.

Now, your last sentence I quoted, BBM with emphasis added, is arguably true and they are also trained to never question the king's statutes from a common law analysis, OR ANY position. I know some realize arresting people for some violations, which results in devastating their lives, may cross over the lines of human decency as I've heard tell of some opting not to make an arrest and send a person on their way.

However, if AG's training explains AND JUSTIFY her actions, her trainers are accessories before the fact in the senseless taking of a man's life. Your assertion, arguably true, provides zero assurance that murders like this will not become an every day thing, although at this point many die or are locked away regularly from incidences equally seated in inexcusable error.

It sure appears as our legislative bodies churn out laws regularly for crimes having no victim or injury. An objective review of these laws many times has a reasonable person concluding they have been passed in order to generate revenue more than protect the people.

And here is the crazy thing, many laws which confer specific rights to the people that if violated, impose civil and criminal penalties on LEO, government and the system, can be shown to commonly ignored if upholding them reduces revenue for the system or its supporting industries.

Look at the Texas bail issues where the system ignores authentic commands from King Texas which confer these specific rights while the people enforcing the laws choose selectively who is entitled and therefore often violate them, with near impunity, after determining those laws simply do not apply to the people who have been chosen to feed the system.

Many believe this AG case is a prime and very visible example illustrating certain aspects of these actualities for the world to see.

"Your assertion, arguably true, provides zero assurance that murders like this will not become an every day thing."

I am not attempting to provide any panaceas or assurances of any kind. I am trying to show where we have come from, in a search for answers to fundamental problems, and to counter that there us a real and very mean world beyond the computer monitor!

 

[Jennifer17]

"Your assertion, arguably true, provides zero assurance that murders like this will not become an every day thing."

I am not attempting to provide any panaceas or assurances of any kind. I am trying to show where we have come from, in a search for answers to fundamental problems, and to counter that there us a real and very mean world beyond the computer monitor!

Anyone else in the rest of the western world can show you how you got there. The rest of the western world are not shooting down their own citizens (or anyone else's for that matter).
There is an answer.

 

[Al Hoffman]

BBM. Botham Jane did not act to kill himself either. She acted to kill him.
And who are you calling a hairless ape?

Your statement about BSJ not killing himself has nothing to do with what I wrote. This as BSJ did not die in an industrial accident, caused by his own actions. Industrial accidents are usually not caused as the result of sentient acts by an inanimate machine or thing. The question we have all been kicking around this thread, is why did a sentient being cause BSJ's death?

I'm calling Charlton Heston and all of us knuckle draggers out here Naked Apes (myself included), at least those of us who's ancestors climbed down out of trees!

Have you not read "The Naked Ape" by zoologist and ethologist Desmond Morris? It is available in 23 languages. It is a well known book that attempts to show how and why we are so much like our furry primate cousins.

 

[Jennifer17]

Your statement about BSJ not killing himself has nothing to do with what I wrote. This as BSJ did not die in an industrial accident, caused by his own actions. Industrial accidents are usually not caused as the result of sentient acts by an inanimate machine or thing. The question we have all been kicking around this thread, is why did a sentient being cause BSJ's death?

I'm calling Charlton Heston and all of us knuckle draggers out here Naked Apes (myself included), at least those of us who's ancestors climbed down out of trees!

Have you not read "The Naked Ape" by zoologist and ethologist Desmond Morris? It is available in 23 languages. It is a well known book that attempts to show how and why we are so much like our furry primate cousins.

I am pretty sure that you were not calling yourself a naked ape. I distrust your motives for that.

 

[Al Hoffman]

Anyone else in the rest of the western world can show you how you got there. The rest of the western world are not shooting down their own citizens (or anyone else's for that matter).
There is an answer.

Ok, that sounds good for Canada. Europe, Australia and Latin America, but what about the problems we have to deal with here and now in America. I'm old enough to recall the path that bought us here (including reruns of TV's Gunsmoke).

You've now pointed out that the rest of the Western World is not killing its own. You say there is an answer.

Aside from the patiently obvious. Do you have any concrete suggestions as to how we walk our society back from the edge of apparent madness?

In pointing fingers at AG, we are blaming the tool, and not the facility and culture that made her.

What would you do to solve the problem, aside from throwing AG on the broken tool pile (where she will likely wind up anyway)?

 

[Al Hoffman]

I am pretty sure that you were not calling yourself a naked ape. I distrust your motives for that.

Read the book "The Naked Ape. I'm certain that it will make my, and all of us who grew up reading it (in High School for me) intent clear. It was a New York Times Best Seller List book. You can and should distrust me all you feel a need to, but please do not imply that I am anything but literate and just another knuckle dragging, crusty, old naked ape!

 

[Jennifer17]

Ok, that sounds good for Canada. Europe, Australia and Latin America, but what about the problems we have to deal with here and now in America. I'm old enough to recall the path that bought us here (including reruns of TV's Gunsmoke).

You've now pointed out that the rest of the Western World is not killing its own. You say there is an answer.

Aside from the patiently obvious. Do you have any concrete suggestions as to how we walk our society back from the edge of apparent madness?

In pointing fingers at AG, we are blaming the tool, and not the facility and culture that made her.

What would you do to solve the problem, aside from throwing AG on the broken tool pile (where she will likely wind up anyway)?

Gun control. I know it is an anathema, but it has and does work in the rest of the world. Do you really think that those other countries did not have guns? Did not have criminals?
You just throw your hands up and say 'too hard'.

 

[Al Hoffman]

HERE IS A HUGE TELEGRAPHIC FLAG!!!

Her attorney, assuming this is the correct Robert L. Rogers, is a prosecutor and has done so representing the State of Texas and now trains prosecutors for the State.

Google hit colloquy:

Law Office of Robert L. Rogers ... Supervised and trained trial prosecutors assigned to represent the State of Texas in Criminal District Courts; Managed an ...

https://lyongorsky.com/robert-l-rogers/

Litigation

• Lead attorney in over 125 jury trials
• Experience in State and Federal courts
• Outstanding reputation as Dallas County prosecutor for ethics & trial skills
• Henry Wade Award recipient: 2006 – Outstanding Trial Prosecutor, Dallas County

Experience

Law Office of Robert L. Rogers
Sole Proprietor
August 2007 – present

• Litigation practice focusing on State and Federal Criminal Defense
• Secured acquittals in jury and bench trials for clients charged with major felony offenses
• Achieved excellent results including dismissals, Grand Jury No-Bills and reduced sentences for clients.

Dallas County District Attorney’s Office
Assistant District Attorney
January 1997 – August 2007

Felony Chief Prosecutor

• Supervised and trained trial prosecutors assigned to represent the State of Texas in Criminal District Courts
• Managed an annual caseload of 1000 cases in the assigned District Court
• Lectured and conducted trial skill seminars for Dallas County prosecutors
• Lead prosecutor in numerous jury trials involving Capital Murder, Aggravated Robbery and other serious felony offenses.

Yeah, that's who I'de want in my fox hole if it was me! What's the problem?

She's part of the system, so is he. You were expecting maybe Matlock?

 

[Al Hoffman]

Gun control. I know it is an anathema, but it has and does work in the rest of the world. Do you really think that those other countries did not have guns? Did not have criminals?
You just throw your hands up and say 'too hard'.

Nope, you tell me how to implement it. If the Russians can infiltrate the NRA, how hard can it be?

What would Charlton Heston and Ronald Reagan say if they were alive today?

But, remember that the killing in England and France is now being done with knives and automobiles (and Russan nerve agents). Where there is a will to commit mayhem, there is a way. But, I will concede that an AR-15 in the hands of a "script kiddy' idiot does make it easier.

There is another book you should look at: "It all started with clubs and stones" by Richard Armour.

 

[Al Hoffman]

Corruption is corruption although there are varying degrees of it. New Orleans was corrupt decades before Operation Shattered Shield finalized or the activity gained notice by the feds. It appears you seemingly suggest the people who take exception to anything less than that flagrant and overt LEVEL of police gang RICO activity which made zero qualms about joyfully murdering people for personal profit via criminal means, are perhaps overly sensitive, whiney, or maybe even ungrateful.

Well let's just say if your position is even related to this precept along with your admonishment to those who shouldn't call 911 as if they are not entitled.... that would appear to put you into a class with those who believe it really is an "US versus the subjects" mentality who may see no problem expecting, maybe even demanding the subjects kneel and lick jack boots.

At this point, I recommend we invest in bottled water, canned food, and barricade materials for the windows and doors.

Sure, the machine is broken, but it's the only one we got. You gotta play in the game to win.

Yes corruption is bad, but when creatively used for good, marvelous things can happen. Consider the Kingfish, Huey P. Long. A little coruption is bad, but if you want to build roads, schools, hospitals and electrify the outback, you gotta go big!

 

[Al Hoffman]

*snipped by me*
Why is it that not one person who trains LEOs, or anyone in LE, is coming out to make that claim and stand by her actions?

A great question!

 

[Jennifer17]

At this point, I recommend we invest in bottled water, canned food, and barricade materials for the windows and doors.

Sure, the machine is broken, but it's the only one we got. You gotta play in the game to win.

Yes corruption is bad, but when creatively used for good, marvelous things can happen. Consider the Kingfish, Huey P. Long. A little coruption is bad, but if you want to build roads, schools, hospitals and electrify the outback, you gotta go big!

Oh for goodness sake. Is that the state that the US in in? Barricade yourselves?
Look at the rest of the world who are not barricading themselves.

 

[DisturbedConcerned]

As you stated, killer Amber Guyger responded exactly as she was trained which appears obviously an accurate, yet troubling explanation justifying her outrageous conduct.

However, it amplifies that which many countless prior senseless killings clearly show. Some cops kill first and then reverse engineer any narrative after the fact to justify it with our very-pro-killer-cop friendly courts most often sympathizing.

That she responded to the situation she created exactly as she was trained, which means prudence and reasonable due diligence are simply not part of her training, much less following prescribed procedure of her employer; well cops train cops just as attorneys train attorneys and judges.

So the answer to your question of how to fix it is obvious, cops train cops and it is reasonable to determine this problem has been created by cops who will likely never fix it.

Of course the job where you strap on guns and go about your business of engaging other armed people or even a majority of non-violent people going about their lives harming nobody with those engagements frequently predetermined they will be less than friendly, involves inherent risk yet cops, out of fear even one cop might end up a casualty, have long adopted a kill first with impunity procedure and the answers can then be crafted to the questions when and if posed.

This seems to have creeped in slowly along with media onslaught aimed at keeping sufficient numbers of people from ever asking why should the lives of the people, good and bad, be marginalized due to those doing the killing not having to, and being unwilling to substantially assume a reasonable amount of the risk for their chosen profession?

When the brotherhood stands with its full weight behind murderers, killers and back shooters rationalizing how they did no wrong or merely silently ignoring, without ever standing against them or publicly condemning any parts of their actions; it shouldn't be hard to see why many in the public view the industry as a terrorist group, and one the public feeds, clothes and otherwise provides their basic needs.

To go further suggesting "real corruption" that may actually be worthy of attention and MAYBE correcting requires that rising to the level of Shattered Shield, with any other incrementally less corruption should equate to merely 'boys will be boys', well therein the roots of this problem are further exposed.


Yet you go well beyond that actually proudly supporting corruption as necessary for good things to happen. It saddens me to know there are many who at some level tend to agree with you, 'good or bad corruption', if only by looking away in denial refusing to stand against our nation becoming an outright banana republic and more imperialistic and morally bankrupt than nations WE conquered at the cost of many lives sacrificed, in WWII.

Yeah, cast out your bad ones publicly tossing them on that bone pile you mention and at least make as large a spectacle of it as is gratuitously done when charitible acts of kindness, many staged although some actually candidly recorded, or doing what you are supposed to do, protect and serve THE PEOPLE are blared across every TV screen and loudspeaker in the nation.

Failing to do this as LEO becomes more and more militant will culiminate sooner than later in police becoming nothing less than the army of the wealthy and powerful, whom they seldom ever kill, even when they could more righteously than the countless numbers of peasants, serfs and commoners (your neighbors and fellow humans) that are senselessly killed seemingly often, just because a cop, or group of cops, could.

graphic warning of a street execution

Video shows Miami Beach police fatally shooting man - CNN

now there exists no short supply of unarmed murder victims being gunned down running away including mere kids

what is in short supply is anything from within the brotherhood condemning such actions, making it right and retraining the band of guerilla mercenaries posing as friendly neighbors that just happen to have a gun and a badge

Your statement about BSJ not killing himself has nothing to do with what I wrote. This as BSJ did not die in an industrial accident, caused by his own actions. Industrial accidents are usually not caused as the result of sentient acts by an inanimate machine or thing. The question we have all been kicking around this thread, is why did a sentient being cause BSJ's death?

 

[DisturbedConcerned]

An attorney she can afford out of her own bank account that isn't the de facto state attorney general

let's be honest about who is paying for this $500+/hr attorney, who pre-arranged for and covered her bond (most likely merely a surety's signature, no money required) and why dpd employees moved her belongings dressed in their uniforms the people pay for and likely launder

Yeah, that's who I'de want in my fox hole if it was me! What's the problem?

She's part of the system, so is he. You were expecting maybe Matlock?

 

[DisturbedConcerned]

He probably meant guerilla when describing cops like 'dressed for her vics' funerals 24-7" AG and many others that the nationwide band never condemns or turns their backs on, no matter what they do.

I am pretty sure that you were not calling yourself a naked ape. I distrust your motives for that.

 

[human]

At this point, I recommend we invest in bottled water, canned food, and barricade materials for the windows and doors.

Sure, the machine is broken, but it's the only one we got. You gotta play in the game to win.

Yes corruption is bad, but when creatively used for good, marvelous things can happen. Consider the Kingfish, Huey P. Long. A little coruption is bad, but if you want to build roads, schools, hospitals and electrify the outback, you gotta go big!

Remember Edwin Edwards ( was that his name?) H e was asked if he had done some illegal things. I forget what they were . He said, “Why sure. Corruption is legal in Louisiana.”