AMBER ALERT WI - Jayme Closs, 13, Barron, missing after parents found shot, 15 Oct 2018 *endangered* #24

[bizzle2]

Why do you say that? Seems like they gave an exact time, not an estimate. Police adjusted for the time difference the next morning.

They weren't asked about the time until the next day. Could easily have remembered it incorrectly.

Also, based on the statements by police it doesn't appear the LE thinks the time is accurate.

 

[andreww]

This is what the neighbours had to say as reported by the mailonline dated 22 October 2018:

The neighbors of Jayme Closs have revealed to DailyMail.com that they heard two loud gunshots more than 20 minutes before police received a 911 call.
Authorities arrived at Jayme's Barron, Wisconsin home at 12.58am last Monday, four minutes after receiving a call from help from her mother Denise Closs' cell phone. It was there they found the bodies of Denise and James Closs and realized that their 13-year-old daughter was nowhere to be found.
Now Joan and Tom Smrekar are left wondering what could have been if they had called 911 when they heard first heard the gunshots.

Joan, 66, told DailyMail.com that she and Tom, 69, were lying in bed when they heard the first gunshot. It was followed by a second, just a couple of seconds later. Joan said that it was not uncommon to hear hunters out shooting in the area but the lateness and the sheer volume of these shots made her feel they were 'different'. 'They were so close, it must have been right at their door. I asked my husband, "Was that a gunshot?" He said, "Yes, and that's a big gun,"' she recalled. 'I rolled over and my clock said it was 12.38am. But I know it's off by seven minutes or so, so it was more like 12.30am.'

To her abiding and bitter regret, Joan did not call 911. She got up and noticed that their dog Zobie seemed bothered by something but wasn't barking. 'When the FBI came and we learned what those shots were, right away I thought maybe if I had called we might have made a difference,' Joan said as she fought back tears. 'Jayme might not have been taken because when the 911 call was made at 12.54am or something like that the police were there in four minutes.' 'If they had been there four minutes after the shots, Jayme might not have been taken.'

Joan and Tom said they did not know their neighbors well and had little interaction with them. According to Joan, FBI officers who interviewed her and Tom told them that there was only one word that could be made out of the 911 call from Denise's cell. 'They said they could hear the word, "Help!" but nothing else,' she revealed. 'There was too much noise.'

I wonder when LE interviewed them if anyone checked the Smrekar's bedroom clock to confirm it WAS 7 minutes fast as stated by Mrs S?

Yes they were interviewed in the morning. It was the cop that found the seven minute discrepancy.

 

[otto]

All three thousand which includes children

This seems like an ideal investigation to use cell tower data to identify a potential suspect, but it would take time. That shouldn't be an issue when there is a missing child.

 

[JRW]

Yes they were interviewed in the morning. It was the cop that found the seven minute discrepancy.

Did it ever say anywhere if the neighbors looked out their window or went outside after hearing shots so close to their house?

 

[andreww]

They weren't asked about the time until the next day. Could easily have remembered it incorrectly.

Also, based on the statements by police it doesn't appear the LE thinks the time is accurate.

Why would LE have reason to doubt the accuracy of the time? They openly admit that they really very little information to go on, yet they have enough to say that the only witness they have is inaccurate? Something is not right here.

 

[bizzle2]

I understand. If we doubt the earwitness account about the timing of the shots, and the number of shots, then we have even less information to work with. This would allow us to imagine many more scenarios about what may have happened.

IMO if the neighbors were correct about the time it opens up more scenarios. We'd need to figure out what in the world happened in that house for 25 minutes.

I'm mostly doubting the time is correct because LE has said the perp wasn't in the house for that long, and the crime happened very quickly.

 

[andreww]

Did it ever say anywhere if the neighbors looked out their window or went outside after hearing shots so close to their house?

They did not. There is a considerable distance between the houses plus a stand of trees between them, so I doubt that the could even see the Closs home from their house.

 

[otto]

Yes they were interviewed in the morning. It was the cop that found the seven minute discrepancy.

Timestamp on manually set devices, such as an alarm clock or CCTV footage, always has to be compared to factory default timestamps, such as cell phone and laptop. It's to be expected that there would be a few minutes discrepancy.

I see 30 minutes as a very short time to break into a house, murder two adults, abduct the child, and leave.

 

[bellyup]

Not my top theories, but I agree this scenario is possible. I don't know what a child sold like this would be worth though. Europeans and Americans don't find Jayme's coloring so rare, but it is very rare worldwide. Didn't the Barbary pirates and Ottomon Turks used to kidnap blondes and redheads for their harems?

I think the chances this are a trafficking case are slim to none. Traffickers target girls who won't be missed. Who are unlikely to be reported missing for a period of time. They are generally opportunistic and not predatory.

They take them from the streets, from friends homes, from parties or drug houses. They set up dates and lure girls to come them. They don't go to a suburban family home with guns ablazing to steal a specific child with specific coloration and commit two murders in the process. This crime just doesn't fit a trafficking profile at all and I'll be completely floored if I'm wrong on that.

 

[andreww]

IMO if the neighbors were correct about the time it opens up more scenarios. We'd need to figure out what in the world happened in that house for 25 minutes.

I'm mostly doubting the time is correct because LE has said the perp wasn't in the house for that long, and the crime happened very quickly.

Yes, but how would LE know how long the perp was there?

 

[cluciano63]

"ADVISED OF A POSSIBLE SUICIDE ATTEMPT" was how it was dispatched. That didn't come from first responders.

I don't think it was shocked reaction coming from the dispatcher. I firmly believe something led the 911 dispatcher to believe it was a possible suicide call.

If that was it, maybe as there were no words...and the “sounds” sounded like a struggle with just one possible voice heard. Not an argument, i.e

 

[otto]

IMO if the neighbors were correct about the time it opens up more scenarios. We'd need to figure out what in the world happened in that house for 25 minutes.

I'm mostly doubting the time is correct because LE has said the perp wasn't in the house for that long, and the crime happened very quickly.

How long do home invasions usually last? 30 minutes seems like a short time.

 

[photographer4]

Yes, but how would LE know how long the perp was there?

Its possible they have info that we don't have that gives them a more accurate timeline than we have. Example: they have two cars of interest that were in the area and apparently captured on various CCTV... Its possible they see those cars in a super short time span arriving and departing the area, but haven't advised us.

Its also possible they may have info from devices like cell phones that pinged in the area that we do not have.

Perhaps they know roughly the time of death of each parent based on physical signs (rigor having set in, or come and gone, or not been present when they arrived). Dried or wet / fresh blood at the scene.... These would help them to have some idea as to how quickly things went down.

I'm hoping that they're starting now to get DNA back from whatever they tested inside the home and that they may opt to release more information....

 

[SandyQLS]

Another issue on my mind is the Closs property not stolen, not that we know about anyway. Jim and Denise were murdered, and their keys were available, yet neither car was stolen. Denise probably had a wedding ring, and other jewelry purchased or inherited. The price of gold is still very good at about $1225 per ounce. The unsub(s) did not take Jim's wallet or Denise's purse - between them there was probably some cash. Jim's guns. Other small items, electronics.

If this was a robbery gone bad, they could have shot Jayme and grabbed small stuff just as fast as grabbing a live Jayme.

No matter all possible scenarios, I always come back to taking a live Jayme as the primary purpose of this crime as #1 theory.

 

[cluciano63]

How long do home invasions usually last? 30 minutes seems like a short time.

Maybe not that long but I would expect perps to keep victims alive long enough to get safe combinations, location of valuables from them etc...not just blast away. But maybe they just shot James at first and terrorized the women...who knows. But so far, no theory can make me comprehend taking Jayme if not intended all along. Jmo

 

[otto]

Another issue on my mind is the Closs property not stolen, not that we know about anyway. Jim and Denise were murdered, and their keys were available, yet neither car was stolen. Denise probably had a wedding ring, and other jewelry purchased or inherited. The price of gold is still very good at about $1225 per ounce. The unsub(s) did not take Jim's wallet or Denise's purse - between them there was probably some cash. Jim's guns. Other small items, electronics.

If this was a robbery gone bad, they could have shot Jayme and grabbed small stuff just as fast as grabbing a live Jayme.

No matter all possible scenarios, I always come back to taking a live Jayme as the primary purpose of this crime as #1 theory.

I think that if we just look at the surface of what happened, then Jayme is the reason that this happened. The goal was to take her, and the suspect went to an awful lot of trouble to get her. For that reason, I think it's more likely that she is still alive.

 

[bellyup]

If that was it, maybe as there were no words...and the “sounds” sounded like a struggle with just one possible voice heard. Not an argument, i.e

That's what I'm thinking. I think the 911 dispatcher and the police heard more on that 911 call then they are saying to the public because it's likely their biggest lead at this point. What was heard likely made the dispatcher think it was a possible suicide scenario.

I haven't seen any information about this but what are WI state laws regarding 911 calls being public information?? I've seen family complaining that they haven't been permitted to hear it but in most states 911 calls are public record. LE can file to suppress it's release but it would be on a specific time line and have to be made available eventually.

 

[otto]

Maybe not that long but I would expect perps to keep victims alive long enough to get safe combinations, location of valuables from them etc...not just blast away. But maybe they just shot James at first and terrorized the women...who knows. But so far, no theory can make me comprehend taking Jayme if not intended all along. Jmo

Home invasions where robbery is the goal certainly do take a lot longer. I don't remember the names, but there was the one family with the two daughters who were terrorized for hours while the suspects obtained money, and then their house was burned. The same thing happened in another invasion where the young son was separated and the family was tortured for hours for money. The suspects even ordered pizza, and again the house was burned.

There doesn't seem to be anything to suggest robbery. Someone entered the house, murdered the parents and took Jayme, so that makes Jayme the target.

 

[Rubiconbob]

Im not sure what you are asking me. I have no idea how many times the door was shot, if it was shot. I have no idea how many shots were fired at all, other than "multiple". Im positive the neighbors didnt hear every shot fired that night. ??

I've thought about this quite a bit as I personally believe the neighbours account to be accurate. So I think that either;

- The perp used a shotgun. First shot passed through the door and killed James, second shot mortally wounded Denise.

- First shot went through the door, second killed James, and any other shots simply could not be heard by the neighbour as the perp was indoors.

I simply don’t know on this. Wouldn’t surprise if 2 shots were it.

First shot takes out James who’s holding door closed ??

Second could be Denise trying to help James or stoping perp... then she goes to bathroom
And succumbs to wounds.. disoriented dialing 911... not sure..

Have hard time believing 2 shots loud enough to travel to neighbors wouldn’t be heard if more shots.... especially with door being open and any additional shots would be in short time later you would think.

If their intent was jayme abduction then u wouldn’t hear other shots at that point.

Still think perp knew gun was loud as hell..
And was in and out in very short time.. Almost feels like bank robbery planning..and scenario... take care of two guards and leave with the victim...

 

[bellyup]

Another issue on my mind is the Closs property not stolen, not that we know about anyway. Jim and Denise were murdered, and their keys were available, yet neither car was stolen. Denise probably had a wedding ring, and other jewelry purchased or inherited. The price of gold is still very good at about $1225 per ounce. The unsub(s) did not take Jim's wallet or Denise's purse - between them there was probably some cash. Jim's guns. Other small items, electronics.

If this was a robbery gone bad, they could have shot Jayme and grabbed small stuff just as fast as grabbing a live Jayme.

No matter all possible scenarios, I always come back to taking a live Jayme as the primary purpose of this crime as #1 theory.

I agree. So I have to wonder who wanted Jayme?
It's possible that this was some random predatory individual that had been watching her but I can't shake the feeling that this was more personal. Maybe Jayme had been a source of support to this person in their time of need? Maybe they had previously been friends and the kid got into trouble and as such they were kept apart?

I don't think it was a "boyfriend" per se. Rather a friend that was a boy. Someone Jayme cared about in some manner. By all accounts they were a giving family involved in church, volunteerism, etc. Jayme was reported as shy and quiet. I think it's possible that someone took advantage of Jayme's nature.

I really hope that LE is considering all boys / men that may have interacted with her through community service, church work, school etc. over a long period of time. My gut says this was a grudge for a perceived wrong doing.