Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #9

[dotr]

How can you be confident about that when there are search warrants/production orders which remain sealed to this day, and we therefore have no idea who/what was being looked at, in addition to the ones which the media has access to? If media published the contents of ALL of the production/search warrants, would it perhaps tell a different story which perhaps police don't want the public to know about yet?

Rbbm.
True, for all we know the Shermans may have been tucked in bed and then redressed in the clothing and/or outerwear worn when they were found.
Hopefully not, but there could even have been a sex assault
or things taken from the house that was not publicly reported.
imo, speculation

 

[MistyWaters]

Same people decided Wayne Millard killed himself.

Yes and that’s because at the onset LE failed to conduct any level of investigation whatsoever and the killer informed LE that WM was depressed. Notice that you’re suggesting the Sherman case should mirror exactly that..... LE walks in, takes a quick look around and within minutes beyond any doubt concludes the manner of death was m/s, end of story, no more investigation required.

 

[MistyWaters]

Rbbm.
True, for all we know the Shermans may have been tucked in bed and then redressed in the clothing and/or outerwear worn when they were found.
Hopefully not, but there could even have been a sex assault
or things taken from the house that was not publicly reported.
imo, speculation

That is very true. The estimated time or date of death has never been officially announced either.

Something that always amazes me is how, during actual criminal trials, additional evidence is brought forth that entirely changes early speculation. Only through sketchy bits of information gleaned through early media reports, we often come to think we know everything but we really don’t know anything at all.

 

[deugirtni]

Fair enough, but if this is being investigated as a double murder, both Honey and Barry should be listed as victims on all production orders.

Like someone posted earlier, could have been just a re-issue/rewording of early orders, which weren't bothered to be changed, or could have been that since it wasn't necessary to list both names instead of just the one name LE decided to let it go with one name so as perhaps not to alert media (or police who might become 'sources') that they were investigating a double homicide, or could have been because police had tunnel vision and fell for the immediate picture presented upon entering the home, or could have been for reasons we aren't even thinking about?

 

[deugirtni]

That is very true. The estimated time or date of death has never been officially announced either.

Something that always amazes me is how, during actual criminal trials, additional evidence is brought forth that entirely changes early speculation. Only through sketchy bits of information gleaned through early media reports, we often come to think we know everything but we really don’t know anything at all.

I have to admit that I have been absolutely 'gobsmacked' at times when we hear about all the evidence police managed to collect withOUT media reporting about it ahead of time. (Tim Bosma and Liknes cases come immediately to mind)

 

[MistyWaters]

Fair enough, but if this is being investigated as a double murder, both Honey and Barry should be listed as victims on all production orders.

If the results of Pickup’s death investigation had ever indicated m/s, how do you suppose a judge granted an order listing both as victims of homicide?

“The next batch of search warrants and production orders filed by police, on Feb. 15, listed both Barry and Honey as victims of homicide. One of those production orders is a judicial authorization to obtain “all medical records for Bernard Sherman and Anna Debra Honey Sherman obtained by Dr. Michael Pickup under the authority of the Coroner’s Act during the coroner’s investigation” into the Sherman deaths. That document, filed in court, does not detail or explain the records at issue.”
How the investigation into the deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman turned from murder-suicide to double homicide | The Star

 

[MistyWaters]

I have to admit that I have been absolutely 'gobsmacked' at times when we hear about all the evidence police managed to collect withOUT media reporting about it ahead of time. (Tim Bosma and Liknes cases come immediately to mind)

For sure. The best reason I can think of why some might wonder what’s behind Canadian police “secrecy” is because criminal investigations in Canada aren’t influenced by politics like in the US, where a police chief, judge or district attourney (prosecutor) must always be aware of answering to the general public in their performance, enough to get re-elected. So then in Canada, as we’re greatly influenced by American media and cases across the border, we sometimes come to expect both countries handle criminal investigations in exactly the same way. So I understand why it might be perceived if Canadian Police don’t offer regular investigative briefings and updates to the media, it seems something’s not right. In reality it’s just the way it is, it’s the norm.

I’m not saying our Canadian way of official appointments (rather than elected) is better or worse, but in Canada any expectation of LE informing the public of investigative activity is just unreasonable. It doesn’t happen unless LE has good reason to require the public’s assistance.

But even in the US, some states moreso than others, I can think of a few unsolved cases where WS members get frustrated by the lack of information provided from LE to the media. LEs rational is to protect the integrity of the investigation and to discourage time-wasting false tips or confessions.

So that leads me to wonder if LE revealing information during an investigation is a realistic expectation whatsoever - or is the perception heavily influenced by crime drama as depicted in movies scripts, books or TV shows....

 

[casesensitive]

There is one thing that I am absolutely certain about in this case. Ain't nobody gonna change Andrew's mind. LOL

 

[MistyWaters]

Fair enough, but if this is being investigated as a double murder, both Honey and Barry should be listed as victims on all production orders.

Repeat. No, if the production orders were issued to obtain records held in Honey’s name only, the recipient has no reason to be concerned about her husband’s death or if she even had one.

 

[MistyWaters]

There is one thing that I am absolutely certain about in this case. Ain't nobody gonna change Andrew's mind. LOL

Yes, sometimes it feels like a time warp to almost a year ago, when the threads were very much a debate over m/s versus double homicide prior to the official ruling being announced last January.

Most recent media report, that many months later the homicide investigation is still ongoing can’t be ignored -
Toronto police obtain nine new search warrants in Sherman murder investigation | The Star

 

[andreww]

There is one thing that I am absolutely certain about in this case. Ain't nobody gonna change Andrew's mind. LOL

Thats not true. The day I see one shred of evidence that actually proves that this was a double murder is the day I'll change my mind. There is only about a dozen people posting on this thread anymore and most of them have absolute confidence in everything LE says and does. Yes they are quick to rip them a new one when they screw something up (McAurther, Millard), yet when the next case comes around people act like they are beyond reproach. People like to choose the safe side. They've already announced this as a double murder, you can't lose. It will either be solved (you'll be right) or the case will go cold (you can still say you are right). On the other hand they will never go back. I'll never be proven right, even if I am.

 

[MistyWaters]

Thats not true. The day I see one shred of evidence that actually proves that this was a double murder is the day I'll change my mind. There is only about a dozen people posting on this thread anymore and most of them have absolute confidence in everything LE says and does. Yes they are quick to rip them a new one when they screw something up (McAurther, Millard), yet when the next case comes around people act like they are beyond reproach. People like to choose the safe side. They've already announced this as a double murder, you can't lose. It will either be solved (you'll be right) or the case will go cold (you can still say you are right). On the other hand they will never go back. I'll never be proven right, even if I am.

I think it’s important to always remember that LE is focused on solving crimes and most definitely are not interested in satisfying the curiosity of the general public regarding evidence that has been collected, in advance to charges being laid. At this point in time, as MJ would say “they don’t care about us!”

The absence of information is not proof of anything, other than a lack of known facts.

By the way, TPS announced the deaths a double homicide because the Provincial Coroner ruled their deaths as such. It might be helpful to remember TPS does not have authority to officially determine findings of death because they are not trained experts in the field of medical or forensic science. Do you remember the Coroner’s testimony during DMs trial for the murder of his father? Same process in this case. The Provincial Coroner ruled the death a double homicide, then TPS makes the official announcement on their behalf advising the public their investigation officially was being considered a double homicide investigation. That’s standard and routine. Because of the various roles inter-involved in homicide investigations, it’s impossible to assume TPS’s “opinion” ever prevailed to any great degree.

 

[ldlager]

Conversely, tie your neck to a 3.5 foot bar so that you're kind of sitting there with feet outstretched in front of you, and get rid of all of your muscle-tone, even the involuntary muscle-tone, and see how straight you're sitting up, and how easy it would be to keep a winter jacket that was not zipped/buttoned up, on your body perfectly?
Right, it wasn't staged as a double suicide, it was staged as a murder/suicide - it's the only thing that even remotely fits. Seems to me like someone wanted police to believe it was M/S.

It is entirely possible that there was in fact a note, ostensibly from BS, left at the scene indicating murder- suicide. If so, LE has obviously concluded that it was either written by someone else; or was written by BS under duress (although I can't understand what info they could use to conclude the latter). IMO

 

[WINDSOR]

Fair enough, but if this is being investigated as a double murder, both Honey and Barry should be listed as victims on all production orders.

Not necessary, redundant, and of no benefit to the investigation to do so.

 

[Jasper52]

I think it’s important to always remember that LE is focused on solving crimes and most definitely are not interested in satisfying the curiosity of the general public regarding evidence that has been collected, in advance to charges being laid. At this point in time, as MJ would say “they don’t care about us!”

The absence of information is not proof of anything, other than a lack of known facts.

Jumping off your post as this is the case with the Rhodens (8 family members murdered) - that happened in April, 2016.

There was very little info released to the public and many thought the case had gone cold. A family was just arrested about a week ago. LE dotted all their i's and crossed all their t's before making the arrests and announcement.

In that case, they say it will be years before the case goes to trial.

 

[MistyWaters]

It is entirely possible that there was in fact a note, ostensibly from BS, left at the scene indicating murder- suicide. If so, LE has obviously concluded that it was either written by someone else; or was written by BS under duress (although I can't understand what info they could use to conclude the latter). IMO

In that the killer/s went the additional step of deceptively staging a suicide scene in an attempt to hide the homicides, if a fabricated suicide note was also left wouldn’t surprise me at all.

It was reported that somebody in the neighbourhood mentioned LE was canvassing the area seeking video from Dec 14th. I wonder if LE suspected the perp/s went back to the residence a second time to plant a suicide note, knowing the deaths had not yet been discovered? For that matter, the double suicide or m/s staging could’ve taken place on the next night following the murders and that could’ve been another reason how it was recognized neither died in the same manner their bodies were discovered. The killer/s had almost a two day window of opportunity in which to create the fictitious death scene.

 

[dotr]

Nancy Grace comments.

Published on Nov 14, 2018

 

[casesensitive]

I had questioned if a suicide note was at the house, which would easily explain the TPS seemingly immediate confidence in M/S. I thought that some "obvious" evidence must have initially pointed toward M/S at the crime scene. If that is not a fact, then LE carelessly spoke too soon for whatever reason, or were duped, or incompetent, or intentionally went with M/S to keep the killer off guard. Of course what we now know about the crime scene and forensic autopsy results does not equate to M/S. My choice of LE options is that TPS got it wrong from the get go. I will only understand their initial position, if a suicide note was involved.

 

[andreww]

Nancy Grace comments.

Published on Nov 14, 2018

Nancy Grace is the Morton Downy of crime reporting. She has been absolutely wrong on many occasions and her irresponsible opinions have led to at least two suicides and a number of lawsuits. It should be against Webslueths rules to even mention her name here.

 

[hudunit]

After seeing the October 2017 interview with Barry and Honey,I am convinced that it was M/M.I saw mutual respect and love for each other.If Barry accidentally killed her and decided suicide for himself I think he would have left a note.If he decided to make it look like M/M he would have made it look more like an intruder had been there.This leads me to believe that someone in whose interest it was to attempt to throw suspicion away from themselves was responsible.It has the appearance of a "biker gang" revenge murder.