Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #9

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...'beaten to a pulp.' I thought she cut her lip/nose.
Where did you hear that? All that has been said (by Greenspan) is that she was found in a pool of blood. I find it very difficult to believe that a bleeding nose or a cut lip would result in a pool of blood. But nonetheless, she had injuries that definitely would not be present if it were a double suicide.
 
'He was a disruptor,' Well, that's one persons opinion only.

Another person might have called him an 'innovator'. Nothing wrong with changing the system, often a good thing they might say.

As for using the court systems, that's why they are there, to be used.

Now, please do not assume how I feel about these victims, but there is always another side. Just saying.......
 
Sherman’s fortune was built on his canny ability to push systems to their limits—and occasionally beyond, as reflected in a litany of controversies over his political donations, his lobbying and his role in the country’s biggest medical research scandal, a tale helped inspire John le Carré’s novel The Constant Gardener. Sherman, on his own and through his companies, was the country’s most active litigant, a man who used the courts as readily as others use the subway. Even as politicians paid tribute to him after his death, his company was locked in legal battles with their governments on multiple fronts.

Sherman railed against “incompetent” bureaucrats who had the audacity to disagree with his interpretations of federal drug law—and he dragged them to court, too. In Federal Court alone, Apotex has launched more than 1,200 legal actions, including 83 against Health Canada since 1990. A ministry spokesman says “because of the high volume of cases,” officials can’t even begin to calculate how many millions Sherman’s litigation has cost Canadian taxpayers.

“He was a disruptor,” says Michele Brill-Edwards, a physician who served as head of drug approvals at Health Canada between 1987 and 1992. “He was the guy who said: ‘I don’t have to play the game the way everyone plays it.’ It was intimidating to come back from lunch and find an urgent memo on your desk saying you’ve got to get over to Federal Court because Sherman was at it again.” His approach with the health regulator, in particular, broke with past practice among drug-makers, who had typically tried to ingratiate themselves. “The sort of gentlemanly way of doing business changed [with Sherman],” says Brill-Edwards. “He quickly demonstrated that in fact you can bully the government and you can intimidate.”

He was certainly willing to play the long game if that’s what it took. One particular spat with Health Canada—a 30-year odyssey over a knock-off of trazodone, an antidepressant—finally came down in Sherman’s favour last April, when the Federal Court of Appeal ruled Ottawa was indeed negligent in its handling of Apotex’s application. “For Barry, it wasn’t about the money,” says Bruce Clark, Apotex’s former senior vice-president of scientific and regulatory affairs. “Money is just how you keep score.”

Okay, same discussion over and over, so repetive that by now I’d be surprised anyone would disagree. From this case we have learned ( I think?) that in order to be successful in the generic drug business, legal challenging of patents becomes critical, in Canada so does ensuring Health Canada recognizes the generic drug as an approved alternative. Incidentally, Louis Winter’s Empire Labs was apparently the first drug company in Canada to venture into the generic drug field, did you know that?

How is the above quote from Maclean’s an example of Barry “skirting the law” or “stalling the process”.
 
Thats your opinion, but even an idiot would know that staging this as a double suicide isn't going to fool anyone if Honey has been beaten to a pulp.

Criminals stage murder scenes for one reason, to hide what truly happened. Someone may stage a murder to look like a suicide. Someone may stage a murder to look like an accident. However, nobody is going to stage a murder to look like a different type of murder. Again, upon viewing this crime scene I don't think anyone thought for a moment that it was a double suicide.
Apparently it is not uncommon for a murderer to stage a murder as a sexual assault, rather than as a different type of murder, such as, say, a vendetta, personal anger, etc., ie staging a murder to look like a different type of murder.
"One reason is that the killer may have staged the crime scene. At least one Hamilton detective who worked the case in the past believed the killer tried to lead them down the wrong path.

In an article titled "The Staged Crime Scene," a New York City homicide investigator wrote that the most common type of homicide staging is trying to make the death appear accidental or a suicide, and the second most common is "when the perpetrator attempts to redirect the investigation by making the crime appear to be a sex-related homicide.""

Who killed Audrey Gleave?

"CONCLUSION

The death investigator needs to be cognizant of the possibility that a crime scene may in fact be staged to mislead the authorities and/or redirect the investigation. In the author's experience and travels as a homicide and forensic consultant, he has encountered a number of these incidents in various jurisdictions across the United States. These events seem to be on the increase as people learn more about the process of death investigation through the media, true crime books, television mystery shows and movies.


INVESTIGATIVE STRATEGIES

Take each factor to it's ultimate conclusion.

  1. Assess the victimology of the deceased.
  2. Evaluate the type of injuries and wounds of the victim in connection with the type of weapon employed.
  3. Conduct the necessary forensic examinations to establish and ascertain the facts of the case.
  4. Conduct an examination of the weapon(s) for latent evidence as well as ballistics and testing of firearms.
  5. Evaluate the behavior(s) of the victim and suspects.
  6. Establish a profile of the victim through interviews of friends and relatives.
  7. Reconstruct and evaluate the event.
  8. Compare investigative findings with the medicolegal autopsy and confer with the medical examiner.
  9. Corroborate statements with evidential facts.
  10. Conduct and process all death investigations as if they were homicide cases."
Articles
 
Initially I theorized about that. When info was released about the coats, wrist bindings and Honey's injuries, my opinion shifted. Simply put, the staging does not suggest suicide at all.

ETA, KW leans more to it being staged as a double suicide I believe.
I'm pretty sure that KW's theory is that B killed H because he hated her. He lost it with her, and then had to kill himself to save face.
 
Thats your opinion, but even an idiot would know that staging this as a double suicide isn't going to fool anyone if Honey has been beaten to a pulp.

Criminals stage murder scenes for one reason, to hide what truly happened. Someone may stage a murder to look like a suicide. Someone may stage a murder to look like an accident. However, nobody is going to stage a murder to look like a different type of murder. Again, upon viewing this crime scene I don't think anyone thought for a moment that it was a double suicide.

andreww, I could swear that not all that long ago, you yourself were declaring that this was staged as a double suicide.

Initially I theorized about that. When info was released about the coats, wrist bindings and Honey's injuries, my opinion shifted. Simply put, the staging does not suggest suicide at all.

ETA, KW leans more to it being staged as a double suicide I believe.

I was just pointing out that it seems rather unfair to say "even an idiot would know that staging this as a double suicide isn't going to fool anyone if Honey has been beaten to a pulp.", when you yourself were previously declaring it as such.
 
Where did you hear that? All that has been said (by Greenspan) is that she was found in a pool of blood. I find it very difficult to believe that a bleeding nose or a cut lip would result in a pool of blood. But nonetheless, she had injuries that definitely would not be present if it were a double suicide.

CBC article, Jan/18

They commented on HS having to struggle with attacker, being in pool of blood but not on her clothing, cut nose/lip.
 
Why leave the jackets around their arms? Makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
They didn't leave the jackets around their arms. Once they removed the wrist bindings and had them hanging by belts, the jackets simply slid down the lifeless, limp, muscle-tone-less bodies, onto their arms. There was no muscle-tone to keep the opened coats up on their shoulders as they leaned back hanging from their necks with legs touching the floor.
 
They didn't leave the jackets around their arms. Once they removed the wrist bindings and had them hanging by belts, the jackets simply slid down the lifeless, limp, muscle-tone-less bodies, onto their arms. There was no muscle-tone to keep the opened coats up on their shoulders as they leaned back hanging from their necks with legs touching the floor.
Okay, good luck with that. Put a jacket on and try and get it off without moving lol.
 
Why leave the jackets around their arms? Makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

I agree this is a confounding detail. And likely one of many such details that kept police from making an immediate conclusion of double homicide.

My assumption is that it's a method that some suicide victims have used, to ensure they won't be able to instinctively reach up to the bar and rescue themselves.

It's hard to confirm online, because no one wants to publish these details, to avoid enabling suicide. I don't really know if there's a manual somewhere, I don't have a taste for that kind of research.

So, since it's not widely publicized, it seems like something one would know about only if one had tried suicide by low hanging and had self-rescued. Such a person might figure out how to create a temporary strait jacket.

But instead of using that knowledge to commit suicide themselves, this person decided to use it on their murder victims? Seems absurd. However, seeming absurd doesn't make it impossible For example, if someone had staged them hanging from a height and placed a knocked-over chair beneath them, that wouldn't force police to conclude it was suicide.

I think a police line of inquiry would be, what advantage did the perp get from trying to stage it the way they did?

That's another long dscussion, I don't have time for right now.
 
They didn't leave the jackets around their arms. Once they removed the wrist bindings and had them hanging by belts, the jackets simply slid down the lifeless, limp, muscle-tone-less bodies, onto their arms. There was no muscle-tone to keep the opened coats up on their shoulders as they leaned back hanging from their necks with legs touching the floor.
I would agree if it were one jacket. For them to both appear to be matching (I'm assuming the witness was the RE agent), strikes me as potentially part of the staging.
 
Wonder which, if any of these types was responsible for the Sherman deaths?
Thinking of it now, the killer must have felt a huge ego boost touching, moving around and adjusting the bodies of these very powerful people, death, the great equalizer.. imo, speculation.
http://crimefeed.com/2018/08/signs-of-a-staged-crime-scene/
What Type Of Person Stages A Crime Scene?
August 23, 2018 by Catherine Townsend
rbbm
"Determining if a crime scene is staged can sometimes be incredibly difficult for detectives, which is why it’s so important to understand the psychology of a killer, and their relationship to the victim.

Staging a crime scene typically implies premeditation,” clinical psychologist Dr. Rachel Toles told CrimeFeed.

“Some people commit crimes in the heat of passion and then sloppily dispose of the body, while others plan the murder for months and then work out ways to cover their tracks. Staging a crime may also indicate a fetish of some kind — like dressing a doll and getting off on the ability to move and position its body in various ways to substantiate their power.”
"Former NYPD homicide commander Vernon Geberth wrote in Practical Homicide Investigation, the book that is considered the investigative “Bible” for detectives around the country, that every death needs to be considered a homicide until proven otherwise."
"Dr. Laura Pettler writes in Crime Scene Staging Dynamics in Homicide Cases that intimate partner relationships are “by far the most likely” to result in staged crime scenes.

Dr. Pettler has developed six theoretical categories in order to better understand staging behavior. They are: The Cleaner, The Concealer, The Fabricator, The Creator, The Inflictor, and The Planner."

The Cleaner’s whole mission as an offender is to clean up the mess created by the homicide.” This type of offender wastes no time in scrubbing their home, vehicle, and even their own body of any evidence that a struggle took place. The cleaner either uses household items that they have at home or — in some cases heads out to buy more."

"The Concealer, she writes, is “even more about secrets than the cleaner.” The Concealer is tidy – but also removes all evidence of anything connected to the crime. The Concealer type tends to destroy evidence rather than hiding it — often, Pettler found, using fire, water, or both — and is likely to transport the body from the crime scene and dispose of it."

"The Creator adds to the crime scene rather than taking away from it. Their motive, according to Pettler, is to make it appear that another type of crime took place. One of the Creator’s signature crimes is staging a home-invasion – after the murder, they will break windows, plant evidence, or force locks in order to make it appear as though a burglary was the motive."

"The Fabricator relies heavily on their ability to lie – sometimes creating very elaborate fantasies about what may have happened. They may claim that the victim committed suicide, was attacked by an offender, or ran away with an affair partner."

"The Inflictor is so determined to prove that their version of the story is true that they inflict wounds on themselves."

"The Planner spends a lot of time preparing for the murder, Gone Girl–style. This is the personality type that will plan for every detail: They borrow weapons, stage getaway cars, and stage alternate locations for the crime.
The Planner, according to Pettler, is the most rare type of crime scene stager."
 
Okay, good luck with that. Put a jacket on and try and get it off without moving lol.
Try leaning BACK a bit, with your winter coat on, unbuttoned, and make your body as limp as you can, and then imagine it even more limp than that, since we also have involuntary muscles at work all the time.. and see if your coat is willing to stay perfect on your shoulders.
 
Try leaning BACK a bit, with your winter coat on, unbuttoned, and make your body as limp as you can, and then imagine it even more limp than that, since we also have involuntary muscles at work all the time.. and see if your coat is willing to stay perfect on your shoulders.
Would they (or at least one) not then just slide onto the floor? It appears these were jammed somehow.
 
Why leave the jackets around their arms? Makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

If it was staged by a murderer to be m/s:

We know Honey arrived first, then hours later Barry arrived. In those hours, you’d expect Honey to have removed her coat.

Theory: Honey was restrained and killed soon after she arrived home, with her coat on. The killer removed HS’s restraints to stage the scene, but maybe rigor had fixed them in place.

Maybe he tried but failed to remove her jacket. If it were a form-fitting leather coat I think it might be almost impossible to remove once rigor to set in.

In staging the scene, Barry’s coat was pulled down to match.

From wiki:
also known as postmortem spasm, instantaneous rigor, cataleptic rigidity, or instantaneous rigidity, is a rare form of muscular stiffening that occurs at the moment of death and persists into the period of rigor mortis.[1] Cadaveric spasm can be distinguished from rigor mortis as the former is a stronger stiffening of the muscles that cannot be easily undone, as rigor.
 
If it was staged by a murderer to be m/s:

We know Honey arrived first, then hours later Barry arrived. In those hours, you’d expect Honey to have removed her coat.

Theory: Honey was restrained and killed soon after she arrived home, with her coat on. The killer removed HS’s restraints to stage the scene, but maybe rigor had fixed them in place.

Maybe he tried but failed to remove her jacket. If it were a form-fitting leather coat I think it might be almost impossible to remove once rigor to set in.

In staging the scene, Barry’s coat was pulled down to match.

From wiki:
Interesting theory but Barry arrived home only a couple of hours after Honey. No way rigor would have set in that quickly. Been a while since I looked it up but I believe its closer to 12 hours before full rigorous sets in. And it doesn't sound plausible that someone would tie her up when they were going to kill her immediately. But hey, if the murderer spent five or six hours there, who knows.
 
"The Fabricator relies heavily on their ability to lie – sometimes creating very elaborate fantasies about what may have happened. They may claim that the victim committed suicide, was attacked by an offender, or ran away with an affair partner."
Respectfully snipped by me.

Very interesting article. The above behaviour sounds familiar!
 
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