AMBER ALERT WI - Jayme Closs, 13, Barron, missing after parents found shot, 15 Oct 2018 *endangered* #26

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Our father told us if there was a break-in, to not go for his large caliber handgun, but one of the shotguns instead. Those guns did not have the 18"-20" barrel of the Benelli, but rather 26" to 29" modified to full choke. In the close quarters even birdshot would have taken down an intruder from those guns. (For blowing the lock and hinges, though, buckshot would be preferable.) In close quarters a shotgun is a devastating weapon.
When I bought my guns, they told me to use the hand gun to get to the shotgun. I think it was because of accuracy. With a shotgun you just point and shoot...
 
When I bought my guns, they told me to use the hand gun to get to the shotgun. I think it was because of accuracy. With a shotgun you just point and shoot...
Wow. This thread is moving slower and slower by the day.
Edit: Sorry, I didn't mean to include a quote. I was not responding to anything anyone said. I was just pointing out how slow this thread is moving
 
Not saying this is what happened to Jayme , but in the news today is a story about a 13 yr old girl anducted from North Carolina and luckily found in a hotel in Oklahoma with a 23 year old New Mexico man she met through the internet. LE believe he was bringing her back to New Mexico. Scary stuff .Sorry, I don’t know how to link it . Maybe someone else can .

That was a good outcome, thankfully. Here's a link: Missing 13-year-old North Carolina girl found in Oklahoma with 23-year-old man | Daily Mail Online

Investigators had everything in AA's case that is sorely lacking in Jayme's.
-social media and phone record/trail, eye witness, security footage in broad daylight, car and perp were known...
 
Here is YouTube 1 min clip of 4 shots from police shotgun that holds 9 rounds... that’s 9 rounds of 9 bullets. So it holds 81 total.

I didn’t think shotgun because most too much lag to shoot quick... if perp had this gun.. brutal, loud,... lotta bullets quickly.. 2 shots still have 7 to go ...again not a munitions expert so correct if I am wrong.

No, 1 round = 1 “bullet” (or in this case 9 shotgun shells). That’s a high end tactical shotgun, absolutely no reason to believe anything like this was used in the Closs case.
 
No, 1 round = 1 “bullet” (or in this case 9 shotgun shells). That’s a high end tactical shotgun, absolutely no reason to believe anything like this was used in the Closs case.

Sharon. Maybe I misspoke.. 1 round...
Shoulda said 1 shell

1 shell holds 9 pellets. But there large pellets .. see the center photo. With 00 or buckshot its one loud shot then the 9 pellets spread out.. further apart longer the distance.. if your 4/5 ft from door would look like 9 single pellets shot in small circle.
Below is photo...

upload_2018-11-30_17-50-10.png
 
I am not a munitions expert... but have found a few things that make two shots more logical... (correct me if I’m wrong)

I am not stating police office committed the murders and Abduction... please look at article below from recently retired LA POLICE officer. Somewhat nicely explains OO lethality.. it’s essentially the equivalent of 9 9 millimeter shot at once.. so 2 shots is 18 bullets... that would explain statements someone shooting up door.. when in reality 1 shot would look like 9 shots...

————

Close Quarter Battle (CQB)

The traditional “meat and potatoes” of the shotgun has always been its devastating role in close quarters battle. Loaded with heavy buckshot, the shotgun places multiple high-energy projectiles on the target instantly. Several years ago, I was having a conversation with another SWAT operator about how devastating the MP-5 submachine-gun was. He was discussing cyclic rate and accuracy and boasting the sheer power coming from the sub-gun. He described how he could put 60 rounds (with a mag. reload) of 9mm ammo into a target about five yards away in less than eight seconds. While I agreed with him, I mentioned the similarity of the Benelli shotgun that I was currently carrying. He was puzzled for a moment until I pointed out that my semi-auto Benelli M-1 could hold nine rounds of .00 Buckshot ammo, and that each pellet of buckshot was approximately a .33 caliber lead projectile moving over 1,000 feet per second (slightly smaller, but similar to the 9mm or .35 caliber projectile he was firing).

I then explained that I knew several officers (including me) who could fire that Benelli fast enough to empty all nine rounds into the target in about two seconds. That meant we could fire 81 rounds of near 9mm ammunition in less than three seconds. In a comparison of fire power and speed, that shotgun was faster than any sub-gun I had ever used or knew of. My point is that in a CQB range, the shotgun (loaded with heavy buckshot) is absolutely the most devastating firearm in the police inventory.

Technique used by LE and military, but also in video games (I'm told) - Youtube has dozens of real-life and gaming videos on door breaches with a shotgun. Just search "shotgun door breach" or "door kickers", etc.
 
No, 1 round = 1 “bullet” (or in this case 9 shotgun shells). That’s a high end tactical shotgun, absolutely no reason to believe anything like this was used in the Closs case.

Benelli makes rugged tactical shotguns and they make beautiful classic hunting and competition skeet shotguns too. Too much $$ for my taste, but my sister has a 410 for bird hunting and clays.

IMO, There's a couple reasons to think it's possible a shotgun may have been used in the Closs case. Neighbors heard 2 shots and a media report saying reporters saw the door being taken away by LE "riddled" with bullet holes. If that's true, I think it's possible at least the initial breach was with a shotgun. No proof of course, but I haven't seen anything that would indicate a shotgun wasn't used either.
 
The more I look at this, the more I believe the timeline for that evening is up in the air. The sheriff indicated in an interview that the killer being in the home only 4-5 minutes is going to leave very little in forensic evidence. But that ignores the two shots the neighbors heard 25 minutes before the 911 call that alerted LE.

For that matter how do I know this even started at the time of the gunshots? Granted, the father being found dead near the door would seem to indicate that he was shot immediately after the break-in. We know Denise made a phone call or text to someone around 10 PM and then there is a 2.5 hour gap to the gunshots. I don't remember any reporting of texting or phone activity in that time frame. For all I know the killer(s) could have broke in 11 PM or midnight and something occurred at 12:30 to cause the killer(s) to shoot him and he falls near or crawls to the door. (Why the killer(s) would be in the house for 30 minutes to an hour before the 12:30 gunshots is up for speculation. But it might shed light on the motive or methods of the killer(s).) I do believe this did occur in a short time frame, but I see no concrete proof of that scenario.

Agree. The crime of taking Jayme may have occurred in the last 4-5 minutes, but I think it must have started no later than when the neighbors heard the gunshots and possibly much earlier.
 
I have read a few peoples comments throughout the last 6 weeks stating that the dogs would pick up her scent if she ran. Obviously we do not know how often she walked around the property and how far back she would go but wouldn't her scent be everywhere? I guess what I'm asking is how can the dogs decipher if her scent was more recent or it was from her walking in the woods a week ago? Her scent should be all over the property anyways.
Hi! Not sure if anyone replied yet, I’m catching up on this thread. This is a link for a police tracking article for their dogs. (I’m more interested in “air tracking” as well). But there’s some good information in there.

Essentially, it would be a heightened scent most likely from fear, or mental state that can help to greatly differentiate. Also, they can go off most recent. It can get pretty complex.
Trailing versus tracking: The keys to success
 
Benelli makes rugged tactical shotguns and they make beautiful classic hunting and competition skeet shotguns too. Too much $$ for my taste, but my sister has a 410 for bird hunting and clays.

IMO, There's a couple reasons to think it's possible a shotgun may have been used in the Closs case. Neighbors heard 2 shots and a media report saying reporters saw the door being taken away by LE "riddled" with bullet holes. If that's true, I think it's possible at least the initial breach was with a shotgun. No proof of course, but I haven't seen anything that would indicate a shotgun wasn't used either.
If the door was riddled with bullet holes and there would have been a seperate shot for every hole, I'm certain the neighbours would have heard more shots. And likely would have called the Police. Cause that would not have sounded like hunting.
 
Winchester also makes a combo round, essentially a deer slug packed with 3 buckshot pellets. There's a video on youtube that shows the round blasting through five doors.
 
You know what I also thought about. Committing a crime like this on a monday morning just before the week starts, strikes me as significant. On monday school starts, people go to work etc.
What if Jayme's parents were planning to report something (regarding Jayme) to some authority. Like stalking, grooming, abuse, suspicious sex offender or whatever. This crime sure was a way to prevent that from happening.
 
Benelli makes rugged tactical shotguns and they make beautiful classic hunting and competition skeet shotguns too. Too much $$ for my taste, but my sister has a 410 for bird hunting and clays.

IMO, There's a couple reasons to think it's possible a shotgun may have been used in the Closs case. Neighbors heard 2 shots and a media report saying reporters saw the door being taken away by LE "riddled" with bullet holes. If that's true, I think it's possible at least the initial breach was with a shotgun. No proof of course, but I haven't seen anything that would indicate a shotgun wasn't used either.

When I bought my guns, they told me to use the hand gun to get to the shotgun. I think it was because of accuracy. With a shotgun you just point and shoot...

Type of gun doesn't matter if you can't get to one. Guns were in a case.
 
Sure, but if he won big in the casino there would be a record of it. And LE would have been on it. It doesn't appear that they have focused on the casino at all so I think it's fair to say that he probably didn't have a big gambling win. We don't really even know if he was the kind of guy who liked casinos. If he worked 60-80 hours a week like the family says and had a young daughter to dote on at home I highly doubt he even had the time.
According to the Barron County sheriff's dispatch log St. Croix casino was called by dispatch at 04:19am, shortly after the murders. They called security at the casino and waiting for a callback to 303. Since Fitzgerald is 301 I think that would be one of his high ranking officers below him. This is on WS at beginning of thread. I don't know how to link it. Also on the log which is posted in another thread. Does anyone have an idea why the casino was called?
 
According to the Barron County sheriff's dispatch log St. Croix casino was called by dispatch at 04:19am, shortly after the murders. They called security at the casino and waiting for a callback to 303. Since Fitzgerald is 301 I think that would be one of his high ranking officers below him. This is on WS at beginning of thread. I don't know how to link it. Also on the log which is posted in another thread. Does anyone have an idea why the casino was called?

To secure video footage?

From the road and the parking lot I think. Maybe someone had been posting there or waiting before the crime. Would Jayme's father have driven past the casino on his way home? Could someone be checking when he would be home.

And to find out which cars drove there after the crime I guess.
 
They should be interviewing every person at that plant. Is money an issue here for LE. I can't believe between that plant and small community they cannot solve this case!
 
Technique used by LE and military, but also in video games (I'm told) - Youtube has dozens of real-life and gaming videos on door breaches with a shotgun. Just search "shotgun door breach" or "door kickers", etc.
Yes, Curious Maine .. for some reason the video game theory keeps coming back to me. The kicking in of the door and the violence and rage associated with this crime ... JMO
 
I think that Denise and Jayme left the party when they did because James was going to be coming home at that time. Its possible he grabbed something on the way home for dinner. Or they could have planned to meet at home and cook dinner. Maybe they were like my parents and Sunday night was feed yourself night because mom took that night off from cooking.
Its possible the murderer had more than one weapon with him. If the two shots heard by neighbors was a shotgun it could have been used to shoot the door. If James was at the door the pellets could have penetrated the door and hit him. There are all possibilities at that point from slight injury to death. The door might have been kicked because James was blocking it after the initial shots at the door. Once inside they could have switched to a smaller gun that the neighbors wouldn't have heard while they were inside their house.
Something I heard in regard to a case of murder by shotgun was that one way they identified the shooter was by the bruising on his shoulder from repeatedly firing.
 
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