GUILTY CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *CW LWOP* #65

[Trudie]

Great, thanks. Larry—the money that family or random people send to an inmate that goes into their commisary account. Does/Can the government or LE take a percentage cut of that?

Not Larry, but yes they can.
Interestingly, Wisconsin uses an outside company to handle inmate funds, it’s in St. Louis, iirc. So, I bet he’s already getting money. All that’s needed is his inmate number. I’ve always found it astounding how many will send money to a notorious inmate.

 

[dgfred]

@ stmarys

How can there not be premeditation when he let his co-worker know (txt) beforehand that he was going to a work site he wasn't scheduled to? That is as premeditated as it gets IMO.

 

[PommyMommy]

Ok that page is a list of things Chris Watts initially told the police, when he was still saying how he didn't know where anyone was, they were working on things, and it's mostly pretty positive stuff. (And once again I am not saying that even IF she was spending more than she made or not actually bringing in this or that amount, that that was ANY reason to kill her.)

BBM

What are you saying then? You asked for the discovery reference regarding her income and I provided it. MOO

 

[SausagePizza]

I don't know, but I think it's up to Shananns family as to what to do with it. I can't imagine them having any reason to hold onto it, they may not be paying mortgage at all and it will just go into foreclosure. I would think it would be easy to look it up and find out what the status is if anyone is interested.

Thanks that's what I kinda thought also.

 

[gitana1]

Tammy was my personal favorite. She owned his sorry *advertiser censored* by the end of it.

It was amazing how they had profiled him before the interviews. That was clear to me. They knew who he was and what his motivation was before they started andtheir questioning reflected that. Telling him what a good dad he was, what a great guy, how happy they were that he was doing so well in cooperating and telling them what they needed to know- it was a masterpiece.

Brilliant.

They knew they were going to get him to talk and they knew what to say to get there.

The infinite patience. Wow. Incredible. It took them a couple days but they did it. I can only imagine the conversations they had in the other room.

It's weird how they had to treat him sort of like a young child in order to get what they needed. He acted like one as well.

People have gotten down on Shanann for being bossy or controlling but for me it's becoming clear that CW was stunted and sort of paralyzed in a juvenile state. Possibly because intense familiar enmeshement and narcissism kept him terrified to develop into a real human or into a man who could make his own decisions.

When a child is raised having to mirror their parents'emotions and rejected or punished in some way for expressing some feeling or like or dislike that differs from their parents' perhaps they can just become paralyzed into not developing because to do so is dangerous:

What Enmeshed Parenting Looks Like
Enmeshment is all about boundaries between the narcissist and her child. Normal healthy parents raise their children to have a healthy set of boundaries. The child of healthy parents learn that they are separate from other individuals. They develop a strong sense of self.

This is not the case for the enmeshed child of a narcissist.

The narcissist views her child to be part of herself. She is unable to see the child as separate from her. As the development of personal boundaries begins in infanthood, the narcissist’s campaign of damaging her child begins before he can walk. She seeks to establish the child as a reflection of her.

The parent’s efforts to make the child part of her has consequences. As the child gets older, his sense of boundaries with the narcissistic parent are blurry at best, non-existent at worst. The child lacks individual autonomy. His ability to act in ways that will obtain for him what he wants become impaired.

The parent who becomes enmeshed with her child seeks to control everything the child does. Her justification for this control can be boiled down to “It’s my child. I can do what I please with him.”

The Life of an Enmeshed Child
When a narcissist and their child become enmeshed, the roles of parent and child become reversed. A narcissist with an enmeshed child—or children—expects her child to continually anticipate and meet her needs. In this role reversal the child finds himself catering to his parent’s physical and emotional needs. Meanwhile his needs go unmet.

Narcissistic adults do not provide their children with any guidance. The child is left to fumble his way through the grade school years, preteen years, and adolescence. No affirmations of his worth as a separate person are given.

As time goes on, the narcissistic parent and child become almost fused. Enmeshed adult children do not know where in their childhood their parent ended and they began. This lack of boundary definition follows them into adulthood and with other people—particularly romantic partners.

Children with healthy parents learn to make their own decisions and assert their independence by making decisions that their parents don’t approve of. Not so with the enmeshed child. The corrosive bond he shares with his mother means he seeks to make decisions that please her. For she makes clear that there is to be no displeasure from her child. However, it is simply impossible for any child to avoid displeasing his parents, especially if one of them is a narcissist.

When displeased, the narcissist may react with rage and punish her child for even minor infractions.

When an enmeshed child reaches his teenage years, he will generally choose one of two courses. In the first, rather than develop the autonomy he needs to grow into a healthy adult, he will become developmentally stunted. The child who goes this route will remain dependent upon his narcissistic parents. His mother will get to keep her “little me” and the adult child will continue to meet her needs.

A sad consequence of being enmeshed with a narcissistic parent is that the child enters adulthood without having a strong sense of self. Enmeshed children do not get to pass through the normal stages of development. They do not form a healthy identity because they are forced to take on their parent’s identity.

Having a strong sense of self means you make your own decisions. You don’t constantly run the details of every choice you have to make past everyone you know, asking what they thing you should do.

And having a strong sense of self means you can set strong boundaries. This means having the ability to say no when others put demands on your time and energy.

The Consequences of Enmeshment
Much more at link.

So he didn't have women. He wouldn't know how to function as a normal man with one. But when the desire to be with one became too great, he picked a woman who could be enough personality for both of them and who could take responsibility for making all the decisions.

And then he gaslights her at the end for being "controlling", while picking a new woman who rapidly took control and began micromanaging his life - diet, where he will live, finances, how he worked on his marriage or if he did, etc.

It seems these investigators had his number so perfectly and knew exactly how to relate to him to get what they needed. Astounding.

 

[Thepoet]

<modsnip - discussing other posters>

I would like to reiterate; Shanann was a beautiful young, woman who was hard working, dedicated, and successful with her business. She captivated people she came into contact with. She was a loving and wonderful mother AND wife. She was a fighter who overcame problems. She found a way to succeed. She survived and moved beyond health problems. She survived a divorce, moved on, and bought her own home. When she and CW moved to Colorado, it was HER friend who helped them, and that they lived with, so they could save for a house. Since she had already been a homeowner, I believe she was the one who planned how she and CW would buy a house and build their lives. She was the motivator, the strength, and the guidance. In a good way. There was no darkness in Shanann, only light! She fought to the very end to save her marriage, because she truly loved CW! These things are not opinion, they are true. The truth is in the quality and quantity of Shanann's friends, and the courage and determination her friends showed trying to save her and her daughters, and then in defending her! Bella and Celeste were beautiful, loving, little girls full of life and great potential. You can see the love and happiness in their eyes and smiles. God bless them all.

CW is a MONSTER; evil, cold, selfish, and malignant! A brutal, heartless murderer. Not to mention, a liar and an adulterer. He's admitted it all, pled guilty to it ALL! He is solely to blame. Lots of people have "bad" parents and troubled childhoods. Lots of people get into debt. Lots of people become unhappy with their lives. Life is like that, and most people figure out answers and solutions without doing too much damage. Very few resort to killing. CW chose to do what he did, for HIS reasons and to benefit HIMSELF! The blame ends THERE, with CW alone! CW cannot be defended in any way. He has, in fact, chosen to not defend himself. End of story.

BBM MOO

 

[Lyndsay Moore]

It’s like he has no sense of self. He relies on others to tell him who he is and never objects.

I know this is going to come out wrong, but CW seems like the kind of guy who needs permission to do anything and so maybe, from CW’s perspective, when he finally got the gumption to tell SW he wanted to separate and she essentially said no, the only other option in HIS mind was to do the unthinkable. I wonder what would have happened if she “allowed” him the separation? Would they be alive?

I understand from watching Shanann's videos that CW was in the background as a mild mannered, somewhat passive husband. He reminded me of my brother who doesn't take the initiative to do anything unless he's told by his boss, girlfriend, our parents, etc. I just cannot believe he would have come up with a plan to kill his wife if he had not been told to . . .

 

[PommyMommy]

Despite Chris's mother putting him against Shanann that 5 weeks she was gone triggered this. Shanann even said this disintegration of their marriage happened in the last weeks and she didn't know why. He was a free bachelor and went after NK. Even if and do we not know, he flirted with NK before that, she should have stayed home sensing something was wrong. She found out what was wrong when she got home from her trip and things exploded, kids woke up and witnessed it and that is why they were killed too. Chris might have tried to save their marriage even with NK tempting him but Mama Watts told him bad things about Shanann so in his mind he didn't want her anymore either. The thing is why in the heck didn't Chris in his rage, get in his truck, take off, go away but he couldn't, his rage overcame everything, it overtook him.

There is no evidence of rage. MOO

 

[Tippy Lynn]

<modsnip - personalizing>

I hold CW 100% responsible for the demise of his family. When he annihillated his family, I believe he caused the kind of pain that never goes away to every person who knew him, Shanann, and their children, including NK. I see NK as a victim, too, because CW lied to her about everything. As a result I feel an urge to defend her every time someone attacks her. I don’t believe the things people say about her are fair or accurate. It comes across to me like mob mentality, like “The Scarlet Letter,” and I think NK is deserving of compassion and understanding. When I respond to criticisms of her, I do so, hoping I can present a different perspective, and maybe change a mind or two. I can understand how frightened and embarrassed NK must have been during those interviews. I can understand why she would want to protect her friends and herself. I don’t expect her to be a martyr, I don’t think it was necessary. CW committed these murders, not NK. She did destroy evidence, but when she destroyed that evidence she wasn’t thinking about it as evidence, she was thinking about it as pieces of CW, and she felt such a repulsion for him she wanted to remove every remnant of him from her life as quickly and thoroughly as she could. I understand that. I know many women who have done the exactly the same under the same circumstances, except for the murder part. I’ve said this a million times, though, and nobody agrees with me. Does that make me wrong? I don’t think so. Does that make me obsessed? I don’t think so. How long am I going to continue defending NK? I don’t know. Doesn’t seem to be doing any good. Several months have gone by, maybe NK is doing better now, maybe she’s suicidal, maybe she’s started drinking heavily. I don’t know. I hope she has a strong support system around her, and she’s doing well.

I also think it’s important that you know my alert box is constantly filled with little red notifications from people who’ve written to disagree with me. My first instinct will always be to write back and defend NK. But it has gotten redundant. Every time I open that box up, I do hope there’s no new quotes in there. I also receive private messages from people thanking me for having the courage to stand up for NK. They agree with me but are too afraid of the backlash they’ll receive for posting their true feelings here. One of them even said she was afraid of you.

I don’t know. This is an Internet forum. We’re all anonymous. I think Websleuths is the best one out there. I love the rules. I don’t think I’m obsessed with NK, it’s just when I receive comments contradicting mine I feel an urge to write back.

Here is a sampling of some of the current comments in my box that I haven’t responded to, and I don’t plan to. Believe me, there are plenty more.
“We reap what we sow.”
“NK is responsible for losing her job. No one else. Just her. She violated company policy and they let her go. That led to her losing her healthcare...”
“It’s not just an affair. If it was that, I’d agree. She lied to the police, she continually voiced concern about herself instead of any concern about the victims, she lied to the Denver Post. She showed the world she is not somebody who should be trusted or valued. Or liked.”
“Rourke didn’t and doesn’t owe NK anything. To insinuate his actions were sinister in nature goes against everything we’ve seen and learned about the man. He said she was less than forthcoming because she was. Had he been more specific than that, people would take issue with that too.”
“I'm curious- how would they release a picture of a man's erect penis that was taken and sent to NK for her personal enjoyment without making that look bad for NK?”
“I actually thought Rourke was kind. When the discovery was released, I went from completely sympathetic to NK to apathetic. Rourke underplayed, in my opinion, her dishonesty - both to LE and certainly to the public. The evidence and interviews show otherwise. MOO.”
“Do you now her personally?”
“I, for one, wasn't there with NK but I'm also not naive enough to think this woman never googled or looked at SW's social media. I would pretty much bet my life she did several times if not many...”

In cases as horrific and unthinkable as this one emotions run high and things like this are bound to happen. With so many following this case there’s no way everyone is going to be on the same page and agree. It’s not a fun place to be in your position, but try not to take it personal and remember you don’t have to respond to every response or comment you get.
jmo

 

[Steelhead]

I understand from watching Shanann's videos that CW was in the background as a mild mannered, somewhat passive husband. He reminded me of my brother who doesn't take the initiative to do anything unless he's told by his boss, girlfriend, our parents, etc. I just cannot believe he would have come up with a plan to kill his wife if he had not been told to . . .

Interesting. I suppose that’s possible. Who do you think told him to?

 

[freyaflies]

It’s like he has no sense of self. He relies on others to tell him who he is and never objects.

I know this is going to come out wrong, but CW seems like the kind of guy who needs permission to do anything and so maybe, from CW’s perspective, when he finally got the gumption to tell SW he wanted to separate and she essentially said no, the only other option in HIS mind was to do the unthinkable. I wonder what would have happened if she “allowed” him the separation? Would they be alive?

Can you provide a quote for evidence that she wouldn't allow him a separation? Her texts indicate otherwise

 

[TootsieBell]

Do we have any understanding of why there were paper bags on SW hands when her body was discovered? Im really scratching my head over it

 

[BingoBongo]

It’s because her phone records are evidence in a murder case. And that evidence is now public record. We have laws to protect our privacy, but there are then laws that trump those laws, if that makes sense.

It’s just the way it is. Justice has to be transparent for the people to have faith in the justice system. This is the evidence they have, thus it’s released upon request.

Someone in the last thread mentioned the raunchy photo of NK. That was included because CW is in the mirror of that photo, therefore it is evidence of their relationship, and of the nature of that relationship.

I understand why it’s uncomfortable, but I also understand the necessity of transparent justice, which trumps my right to privacy. This isn’t the only case with a document dump like this, I remember feeling bad for Michelle Carters friends who had a lot of personal info exposed.

I get it.

But, that transparency can be coupled with common sense; i.e. redacting info. that is not necessary to the general public.

Example - say you witness a home invasion/robbery at your neighbors home, someone at the home is raped and murdered, as a good citizen, you contact local LE and you are interviewed. They'd like to know, did you maybe take a picture or video of anyone entering the home? Why yes, you did!

LE asks if they may see your phone, so that they may validate date/time/location of photo or video taken, and extract it. They need to know that it's not just some random photo/video that appears to be a robbery, or that you staged to look that way (maybe you're a nut and want your name in media lights aka Trent B., etc.) You agree, your a good citizen doing your civic duty. You've already sent the photo to your husband at work, your adult daughter and maybe a few friends...just because, or asking them what you should do.

This is a murder case, media is all over it. Article in the local and not-so-local papers, includes the photo or video taken, your first name is mentioned, along with the fact that you are a neighbor of the victim...and the murder locations approx. address is included ("110 block of Stevens St., in Baltimore, or whatever). LE sees that you've distributed the photo, and asks your about that. You, sadly, have a son-in-law who has a break-in and robbery conviction in his past. He and some buddies broke into someones garage and stole tools, or whatever. LE wants to know more about that, could he maybe be involved? He lives, with you, close to the crime scene, he has a record, etc. Your son-in-law has done his time, paid his dues...and does not associate w/his tool stealing buddies, but they have continued to commit crimes. Bad hombres.

All of a sudden, your civic duty has become more. Your first name, approx. address, and possibly phone number are out there, via the media and "data dump".

I think you can see/understand how this could blossom.

This is just one (admittedly slightly convoluted) example of how releasing private info. that isn't necessary to the general public (and bad hombres) can potentially lead to problems.

In the case of domestic abuse, this can be very, very bad. Phone numbers CAN be part of the record, but they DO NOT have to be made public.

Again, this is why we have the word redact.

Last I will defend my position on data privacy.

 

[gitana1]

Unfortunately, I think you’re exactly right.

Contrast the utter contempt of the Watts family for Shanann, with the class and grace of Shanann’s family.

They attacked her, not only on television, but during interviews with police as well.

Meanwhile, Shanann’s family spoke glowingly about CW, even going as far as to describe him as a loving father.

I’m happy that Shanann’s family gets to fight back on national television, and is going to be able to undo some of the damage inflicted by these nasty people.

They can try all they want to bash that poor woman. No way does a creep have that many loyal and intimate friends.

They knew her pass codes to her house and phone. She shared every vulnerability and fear and regret and hope with them. They saw her with her family regularly. And still loved her.

And not with the superficial "he's a great guy!" That we see so often with what a couple of you have called "street angels/house devils".

I think she was pretty transparent. She didn't hide anything about herself and yet she was still beloved.

Her on-going friendship with her ex and his family and her dignified and beautiful family also attest to her character as I've mentioned before.

So those who have personal or other reasons to resent and hate her can keep trying to break down her memory and cast aspersions on her character. But logic tells us a creep wouldn't be surrounded with what she was surrounded with. Not at that deep level.

Imperfect as she was, she was clearly a good human being, a great mom, a hard working wife who seemingly had no choice but to run the show on her own in many ways.

Wonderful lady. Glad we got to know her in some way.

 

[Trudie]

I understand from watching Shanann's videos that CW was in the background as a mild mannered, somewhat passive husband. He reminded me of my brother who doesn't take the initiative to do anything unless he's told by his boss, girlfriend, our parents, etc. I just cannot believe he would have come up with a plan to kill his wife if he had not been told to . . .

So you think “someone” urged him?

 

[PommyMommy]

@ stmarys

How can there not be premeditation when he let his co-worker know (txt) beforehand that he was going to a work site he wasn't scheduled to? That is as premeditated as it gets IMO.

There are quite a few things that indicate premeditation. I'm sure other posters can add to this list.

1. While in NC, CW told NK his divorce was final.
2. CW told Shanann not to reveal the baby’s gender until Monday.
3. CW used the credit card on August 11 at the Lazy Dog with NK.
4. Shanann asked CW to go with Bella for her first day of school on Monday morning. He appeased SW by saying he would but then made arrangements to go to work.
5. CW told his co-worker that he was going directly to CERVI 319 Monday morning and assured him that he didn’t need help. CW told NK that he wouldn’t be in the office Monday morning.
6. CW was suddenly no longer interested in finding an apartment the weekend of the murders.
7. There was no evidence of rage. Shanann had no defensive wounds.
8. No panic. No grief. CW’s co-workers said he acted normal. To me, this is the biggest indicator of premeditation.

I wish we knew if he packed the backpacks for the girls.
MOO

 

[MsBetsy]

But none of the authorities really know, do they? He confessed to the killing, not the circumstances. Case closed. If the authorities have proof of premediatation, I confess to missing it and I’d like to see it, because I’m truly interested in the night in question. If they have proof, not speculation of premeditation, that would decrease my interest in that aspect of the case.

I don’t think there is any one motive. But I do think this was a toxic marriage, and many different factors led to the tragedy.

“Who cares about the patches not working?” Well, the people fooled into buying them. But, specific to this case, if the job added to the stresses of the marriage, both financially and with frequent separations, certainly those stresses could have been a factor.

I remember one video where SW indicated that her job was so fun, just laying by a pool at a gorgeous hotel, making phone calls. Maybe if CW got a little resentful, especially if he was left alone, caring for kids, and that job was not helping them out of their financial hole.

As far as believing him, if we believe his confession, then we consent to “believing” him.

I would never post any of thes3 thoughts or questions on a memorial thread. But this is a sleuthing thread, and there’s a difference. The discussion of a specific crime should not be taken like a retort to a eulogy.

I think they made it clear that they believe it was premeditated, as well as planned for. There are many examples. He called his coworker before the murder to ensure he would be alone at the worksite. Discussed it with others on the Friday before, I believe.
He told everyone he was separating weeks before the murder, and lied about Shanann not wanting to work things out. He did many things in advance to set the stage to look like Shanann had a reason to take off with the girls. There are so many other examples that I'm sure someone else will list.

The DA made it clear that he did not go into a rage and kill his family. She had no defense wounds. Nor he. He strangled Shanann, and suffocated the girls, one by one, in a controlled and deliberate manner, spending 2- 4 minutes to kill each one of them. That's up to 12 minutes of slow, intentional, focused intention to kill. Strangulation is the ultimate form of power and control in domestic violence situations. It is not indicative of rage.

I don't think there is any question as to whether or not it was premeditated. The motive was his wanting a new life with his lover and he viewed his family as being in the way. He had begun distancing himself from his family for weeks before the murder. I believe that was his way of getting himself ready and making it easier to follow through with his plans. Imo

 

[BrownRice]

I understand from watching Shanann's videos that CW was in the background as a mild mannered, somewhat passive husband. He reminded me of my brother who doesn't take the initiative to do anything unless he's told by his boss, girlfriend, our parents, etc. I just cannot believe he would have come up with a plan to kill his wife if he had not been told to . . .

Well, it was a really stupid plan so I believe it.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

Do we have any understanding of why there were paper bags on SW hands when her body was discovered? Im really scratching my head over it

Common practice in deceased person's to check for nail scrapings under their fingernails and to protect any evidence. Law enforcement did that

 

[molly1255]

<modsnip - quoted post and response removed>
It's a done deal. He arranged for a plea and in that he admitted he killed them all. The DA never mentioned SW's occupation as a mitigating factor. As for the financial problems, the DA said they were no more serious than what many people experience.

The DA said CW's motive was he had a new love and he wanted a new life. Period. Amen. He slaughtered his entire family and but for the grace of G**, any woman could be Shanann and any baby could be Nico, Bella and Celeste. I can't help but wonder if the people who are doing this are afraid of that very stark fact. I'd suggest instead of trying to pin some kind of blame on Shanann, and feeling superior to her, they should instead pay very close attention to what's going on under their own roofs.

JMO.