CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #16 *ARREST*

[Deleted member 155000]

ITA. And if they (Grandma F) were keeping K when KB was working 12 hour shifts + 2 hours driving time, they may have felt like they should be keeping her all the time. The disagreement over K could have been part of an ongoing discussion between PF and KB and he knew she wasn't about to leave K with him and end the relationship. Regardless of any past discussion, I think KB thought everything was fine on TG.

Have we confirmed that she worked 12 hour shifts?

 

[Deleted member 155000]

Since PF had custody of the child after KB disappeared I think we can assume he is the father on the birth certificate.

Or he claimed to be the father and, having no one present to dispute it, he completed a paternity test to prove it.

 

[Jennifer17]

Have we confirmed that she worked 12 hour shifts?

I would think for a flying instructor there would be time limits on how long she could work in one day.

 

[Gardener1850]

But getting back to the case, I am curious, do you think there will be a presser tomorrow?

Only if they found her body. JMO.

 

[NanZDrew]

True, but I would think if his name was not on the birth certificate it would have been easy for Kelsey's mom to have the child during that time, and he wouldnt have legally been able to keep her from seeing her. His name being on the legal document gave him that right. At least that's how it is where I am from. Imo

Her concern at the time was probably Baby K's safety and letting CPS handle it to ensure the child did not become a hostage.

 

[NanZDrew]

<modsnip OT>

But getting back to the case, I am curious, do you think there will be a presser tomorrow?

I've been wondering this, too!

 

[NanZDrew]

That hearing may be confidential.

True. Most likely so.

 

[Trudie]

Since PF had custody of the child after KB disappeared I think we can assume he is the father on the birth certificate. They would not have had to have a formal agreement on custody if they didn’t want one. They are both parents the same as if they were married: equal joint legal custody . If she wanted to move to Idaho or wherever she could. But he could have filed a petition in the district court to establish custody, visitation and support. He actually might have been able to present a pretty could case that he should be awarded primary custody. Moms don’t just automatically get custody any more.

Exactly. The court can’t prohibit someone from moving. The party that moves might have to accept financial responsibility for transportation costs asssociated with visits. Omg, people get job transfers all the time.

 

[Gardener1850]

Have we confirmed that she worked 12 hour shifts?

I don't know where the 12 hour shifts idea came from. I think her family only said she had long days and mentioned her 70 mile commute one way to Pueblo. Driving 140 miles a day adds hours to the day where she was simply driving. Hypothetically, if her shifts were a normal 8 or 9 hours, add on the driving time and you have close to a 12 hour day. MOO.

 

[1wonderleads2another]

Based on observing PF’s interactions with reporters, I believe he is an arrogant, angry man.

KB was successful. PF’s Mom was a nurse. I think PF, especially with being the youngest, was a “mama’s boy” and looking to always please her.

I think PF had his mother care for the baby when it was PF’s child custody arrangement days (during the week?).

Perhaps KB broke up with PF. Would he have been able to handle watching his beautiful, independent, successful ex leave him with the baby all week while she enjoyed her career and went on dates?

Would he have been bitter and jealous?

Maybe KB wanted to move back to Idaho to be near her family and have her mother watch the baby during the week instead of PF’s Mom. Would PF be upset about that?

I agree with most of this except the part where she wanted to move back to Idaho. She bought her condo in May, she had her dream job in Colorado.

IMO, as some have said, it’s likley she was pregnant with baby 2 and PF was not happy about it. I think he may have just been using KB / leasing her on with breadcrumbs (gaslighting possibly) and had zero intentions of ever marrying her .

Her being pregnant again could also be why whomever he solicited to kill her may have refused/backed out . It’s one thing to kill an adult, but next level evil to kill a child or a pregnant woman.

Baby K may have been spared due to his mom being attached to her.

MOO

 

[WhimsicalWillow]

I wonder how much information the public will receive on this case, going forward?

I don’t think KB was pregnant again. Also, I don’t think KB wanted to marry him anymore.

I believe PF was attached to his mom and did not want to move from the ranch to live with KB.

KB’s Mom said that things hadn’t been according to plan given PF’s financial situation.

 

[OldLadyBlues]

I met my abuser through mutual friends - 6 different friends had him in their circles. Not one of them had any idea about him - they all thought he was great. Please don't assume that people are what they say they are in person either. Most don't understand themselves or know who or what they are yet, unless they have failed relationships behind them. They are charming, charismatic, smart, funny, and share your interests. They are master manipulators. Unfortunately, it is more likely the man you are interested in is engaging in unsavory behaviors than not. But most are not murderers. They ruin your life in other ways and most women don't realize it until it gets beyond the point of no return. The reason women are murdered by men they love is toxic masculinity, the patriarchy, and the entitlement and privilege that men are raised with, at home and in the culture at large. It is so beyond anything women can understand. Women live to help and please. men live to be pleased and to be catered to. Their outrage at not being treated the way they believe they deserve is what causes this violence. That and their lack of empathy and lack of ability to love, lack of executive function, and proclivity toward risk taking and low impulse control. And their grandiosity - they are better and smarter than everyone else. What they believe is what is right and no one knows any better. not accountable to anyone - even the law.

Emotional self-regulation and basic psychological development (and lack thereof) as children creates most of these issues. Toxic masculinity. Boys don't cry. Be a "good" boy. Don't be "bad". Parents who can't help their children identify their feelings and learn to manage them, and to distinguish feelings from actions. Parents who ignore or deny their children's feelings. Parents who punish kids for "acting out", like expressing normal, healthy emotions. That's when kids start splitting others into all good and all bad, and projecting bad behaviors onto others - unable to see themselves as responsible. If kids aren't able to mentalize - to understand the mental states of themselves and others - a form of intellectual empathy, or to see themselves as separate from others and to accept themselves (including their *bad* feelings) as worthy and valuable, it's going to end up damaging other people.

I'm so sorry you had to go through being abused, dear. Truly I am. I have also raised 2 sons who are fully developed emotionally. They are entitled to my unconditional love.
I have read through your post several times and for the life of me, I can't understand what you are trying to say. My post was more about outright mental illness than the superiority(?), entitlement (?) toxic masculinity (?), lack of empathy (?) and just general guy-type bashing. What I DO understand though is if one of my sons showed any ONE of these traits, he wouldn't have been under my roof very long.
IMHO and nothing more.

 

[MsBetsy]

I agree with most of this except the part where she wanted to move back to Idaho. She bought her condo in May, she had her dream job in Colorado.

IMO, as some have said, it’s likley she was pregnant with baby 2 and PF was not happy about it. I think he may have just been using KB / leasing her on with breadcrumbs (gaslighting possibly) and had zero intentions of ever marrying her .

Her being pregnant again could also be why whomever he solicited to kill her may have refused/backed out . It’s one thing to kill an adult, but next level evil to kill a child or a pregnant woman.

Baby K may have been spared due to his mom being attached to her.

MOO

Why would it be likely that she was already pregnant with a second child? We are not even sure what the status of their relationship was, they were not even living together. It doesn't seem like it would be a very good time to have another child, especially since they were concerned about finances. Imo

 

[Hatch]

I agree with your conclusions on PF and the relationship. I just don't want to paint all cowboys/ranchers with the same brush. I'd like to think he is the exception.

There is a big difference in a seasoned Farmer/ Rancher family man and a young 3 horse 35 acre wannabe ! Rant over !

 

[1wonderleads2another]

Why would it be likely that she was already pregnant with a second child? We are not even sure what the status of their relationship was, they were not even living together. It doesn't seem like it would be a very good time to have another child, especially since they were concerned about finances. Imo

I don’t think baby K was planned, if baby 2 was on its way it was not planned either. IMO

I don’t feel full custody was his motive and I don’t believe KB was planning to move back to Idaho (and if she did , he could simply go to court and easily prevent her from taking baby K with her to Idaho...or anywhere outside a a reasonable distance from his residence.)

So what’s his motive ?

 

[Jennifer17]

I don’t think baby K was planned, if baby 2 was on its way it was not planned either. IMO

I don’t feel full custody was his motive and I don’t believe KB was planning to move back to Idaho (and if she did , he could simply go to court and easily prevent her from taking baby K with her to Idaho...or anywhere outside a a reasonable distance from his residence.)

So what’s his motive ?

I can't work out his motive either. If they shared K, 50/50, she may have had to pay him child support.
I just have to think that he was controlling and she did express feelings of discontentment and he shut her up.
Because she seems to have been such a private person, I don't think that we will ever know if there were prior incidents of domestic violence, but IMO, he seems the type.

 

[Hatch]

Seems to me his motive would have to fall into one of the following categories:

• She got pregnant before she knew him well. As she got to know him perhaps she could not envision spending her life with him and a) told him co-parenting would be ok, but no more. She would see others should the opportunity arise; b) she plans to move away near home, near work etc.., Both of these would emasculate and threaten PF
• He wanted to or had seen others and would not follow through with her. This could have prompted a number of different responses from KB, any of which he could have perceived could threaten his independence, including moving away with the child to which he might have become attached, demanding more financial support, etc....
• He was abusive and she was leaving or turning him in.

It had to be serious enough in his distorted mind that he had to kill her. Insane.

How good could she of known him ? Short internet courtship - gets pregnant right away- 9 months of that time she was PG - she is killed close to a year after birth. IMHO the red flags were most likely flying daily ! Just a speculation of course .

 

[BuySellTrade]

We cut our own tree. We get a permit from the US Forest service and go to the national forest. There are a few areas off limits but most of it is open. It’s a lot of fun, but very cold and snowy. It’s not something you should do alone. Bayou should go in a group. Help with cutting and carrying and loading the tree and help if you get stuck in the snow which is very possible. The forest we go to is huge and rather remote so you won’t see any other people usually. It’s beautiful .

I posted in the last thread about my experience of "Christmas tree" patrol when I worked for the USFS. Before university and during university I worked as a Forest Tech for the USFS and then was a Forester post graduation. My last position was a District Silviculturist in charge of reforestation, stand improvement, and cutting prescriptions for timber sales. This occurred between 1969 and 1985 but I am retired now on a NF inholding and the local USFS still sells permits and provides maps to folks wanting to get trees. Time has past and this was in California not Colorad0 so specifics vary now.

Repeating myself, Christmas tree patrol was a fun thing and separate on a volunteer basis from one's regular job plus there was overtime as long days and on weekends. That time of year staffing is low so it was mostly the year round professional employees. I had similar experiences on two different ranger districts. The USFS sells Christmas tree permits. One needs to have a permit visibly attached to trees cut. They cost now I think $20.

"Civilians" were given maps that had areas excluded for cutting and areas suggested or even designed for cutting. Part of this is that there are different tree species. For example red fir and noble fir are what are known as "silver tips" on the Christmas tree lot. The silvertips grew in specific areas and at higher elevations. Locals but even more so folks from the urbanized area 80 miles away made the outings (often the areas were popular for camping, hiking, hunting, fishing other times of the year and had good all weather roads). Much of the commercial timber harvest was clear cuts so there were plantations of Christmas tree sized trees. Suitable plantations were shown on the maps and trees within the plantations marked as non-cut trees. All other trees were fair game for those with tree permits. Being higher elevation often the roads were plowed of snow and folks were directed toward areas where they were less likely to have problems like getting stuck. In general plantations were off limits for cutting unless designated. There were also Douglas-fir plantations designated for cutting but the DF and other species not desired like the silvertips. Some Douglas-fir plantations that had excess trees for a commercial crop were "pre-commercially thinned". Contracts were let for plantations thought to have good Christmas tree potential where the contractor had "salvage rights" and could remove cut trees suitable for sale. This reduced the cost of thinning or even brought in some revenue but wild DF are thinner in foliage than the manicured and grown for Christmas trees that are most commonly sold. Also areas were set up for Boy Scouts to cut and raise money for their needs.

To Christmas tree patrol was mostly to go to near the silvertip and other areas where people knew they could cut. We had maps and permits we could issue on the spot. So the job was fun and merry and we got to interact and be a presence with the public, often families having a quality experience. In the silvertip areas there would be check points going in (recall often in snow or at least winter weather) where we said hi to everyone and counted vehicles. Then was counted vehicles coming out and if vehicles did not come out we would cruise around and get folks out that were stuck, public safety. We were a lurking presence in any case to make sure damage wasn't done, people had permits, and public safety. Also there were people referred to as "Christmas tree poachers" cutting illegally without regard to damage for their own profit. It did no happen much if there were "rangers" roaming about. If we saw evidence, LE would act and we did not confront. I remember this well because it was fun. There were times we decorated our trucks and had coffee and hot chocolate for the public. We often got cookies.

So it did not seem logical to dispose of a body on Fed lands where there are "rangers" lurking and public cutting. Seems reasonable that one looking to dump would go away from Christmas tree areas. An outdoorsy local like say PF would know areas to get good Christmas trees but also areas where the roads were still decent but people scarce during the holidays. Cattle grazing areas are mostly in pine forests and not in the more alpine forests where prime Christmas trees reside.

 

[Johnny1181]

Hi Johnny! I think many of these murders have similar things:
1) The males have little or NO respect for women.
2) The men want things to go THEIR way.
3)The men come from a background of male domination.
4)The men have learned violence against women is OK.
5) The men have fragile self-esteem, inflated egos.
6)The men had no healthy role models in 'how to grow up male'.
In other words, the man believed he was entitled, period.

Hi! Still catching up. Hope everyone had a nice holiday if you celebrated.

I wholeheartedly agree with every point you made.

And as a transgender man who spent all of my life minus the last 2 years as a "feminine" lesbian I have seen the horror of male entitlement and every point you raised.

And as a "passing" transgender man who has spent the last 2 years having a sudden white guy privilege shoved down my throat I am "privy" to the passive and sometimes not so passive violence inflicted against women every minute, every hour, every day.

The "locker room" talk.

All I can say is I appreciate your insightful post. And I think you are absolutely correct.

Hopefully we can educate and raise our men differently. It's violence inflicted, not violence deserved.
jmo

 

[BuySellTrade]

We cut our own tree. We get a permit from the US Forest service and go to the national forest. There are a few areas off limits but most of it is open. It’s a lot of fun, but very cold and snowy. It’s not something you should do alone. Bayou should go in a group. Help with cutting and carrying and loading the tree and help if you get stuck in the snow which is very possible. The forest we go to is huge and rather remote so you won’t see any other people usually. It’s beautiful .

What you may view as huge and remote and lacking in people is perceived differently by the rural and local people, particularly if they make their living from the forest (ranching, logging, research, etc.). You may not be aware that you are being directed where the roads are better. What seems empty is "busy" to locals when it is Christmas tree season (or mushroom season or hunting season or ….). Government folks are lurking about too. Visitors to the "wilderness' have a much different perception than those that live nearby and that is the landscape where they live.

That said being a local boy and a "cowboy", PF probably knows the local forests like breathings. PF knows where the roads are good nd bad, where there tend to be more public, where the government employees/wardens lurk, where there all mine shafts and cliffs, and so on. Lots of area to dispose of a body. Wildlife eats and scatter the body. This time of year snow hides.