NC - MacDonald family murders at Fort Bragg, 1970 - Jeffrey MacDonald innocent?

[Thepoet]

The living room is too neat to make his story belivable. There's not enough space between the couch and the coffee table for four people to barely stand, let alone fight. The darkness of the room, no one could see, or barely see what was happening.

Over the years, McDonald has changed his story over where Greg Mitchell was during the attack. I think in the early years, he's in the bedroom attacking Collette, but than in later years, he's at the couch attacking him! I could have this reversed though.

And the "Hippies" would have to be very familar with the house. Yea, they are going to be stupid enough to break into a Green Beret's house with his pregnent wife and two little girls and challenge him to a fight? Helena may have been on drugs with her friends, but they were not that stupid! And if McDonald's story were true, those intruders would be so badly injuried, perhaps even killed no matter where the supposed attacks took place. Yet, they are able to leave without injury, and leave the man who could easily identify them alive.

McDonald used the dish gloves under the kitchen sink, found in the bedding of one of the girls I think so as not to leave fingerprints.

I often wondered? Did Stokley and Mitchell live together? How far was/were their houses from the McDonald's residence? I understand that the blond woman in the floppy hat seen by Lt. Mica was never identified.

Satch

Mica said the woman in the floppy hat was NOT Helena.

Freddy proved no fight took place in the living room. Lack of space, light, and unbalanced China and greeting cards dudn't fall over!

You're so right about the results of fighting a Green Beret. And MacDonald trained with the boxing team! The real fighter, the real hero in that house was Collette, not convict!

 

[AGettler]

Freddy proved no fight took place in the living room. Lack of space, light, and unbalanced China and greeting cards dudn't fall over!

I think a paramedic admitted the cards were down so he set them back up. If true, how weird is that with 4 bloodied bodies you are supposed to work on but you are going to do some house work?

 

[Thepoet]

I think a paramedic admitted the cards were down so he set them back up. If true, how weird is that with 4 bloodied bodies you are supposed to work on but you are going to do some house work?

I've never read that about the paramedic and I've read a lot about the case. Regardless, there was sufficient evidence that NO struggle took place in the living room. This includes the fact that the living room ceiling was low and someone swinging a bat or club, as MacDonald described, would have hit the ceiling. There were no marks on the ceiling. With four people fighting, moving around, and the girl moving to stay out of the way, the living room should have been in a shambles! And it all took place in the dark, with out any sounds being heard? Nope.

 

[topcop]

There's a mountain of evidence that MacDonald committed these murders and that’s why despite endless trials, hearings, witness testimony, and countless reviews he's still in jail. He most likely will die in jail.

The problem becomes that the average lay person believes that police and the legal system should operate "flawlessly".
They don't. Mistakes are often made, mostly through carelessness and sometimes deliberately. When they are discovered by the defense, they are pounced on - and rightly so. But then the defense attorneys and some of the general public takes it to the next level. Their position being that because these errors were made - therefore the defendant is innocent - which very seldom ever proves to be the case.

There are so many reasons not to believe MacDonald’s accounts of the murders. I have always liked this one that goes to the heart of common sense.
3 men and a woman appear in his living room. The 3 men attack with an ice pick and club. He fends off the ice pick attempts to stab him numerous times with his pajama top using it as a kind of shield; (if memory serves there are over 20 puncture holes in his pajama top).

That pajama top, he explained later was placed over his wife's chest (by him) with holes that matched the puncture marks on her body (but that's another story and a huge problem for MacDonald.).

Anyway, just for grins, gather 3 of your favorite male friends and re-create (anyway you wish, using harmless props to represent an icepick and a club). Instruct the 3 of them to try to "stab you” with the icepick and “bash you” with the club while you fend them off with a pajama top. Try it and see how often they actually make contact to your body vs how often you repel their attempts with a pajama top. No one, no how, no way does that happen – not even if you’re Bruce Lee.

In real life your wrists and forearms are shredded by the icepick – at a minimum. Nothing like that happened to MacDonald. In terms of injuries, he's discharged from the hospital after a very short time while his family was savagely mutilated.

 

[borndem]

Absolutely excellent, topcop. 100%.

 

[Paul B.]

Judith Barsi (toddler Kim in the 1984 miniseries) would have gone far had a paranoid and abusive drunkard not killed her and her mother because he found out they was going to leave him.

 

[borndem]

I've never read that about the paramedic and I've read a lot about the case. Regardless, there was sufficient evidence that NO struggle took place in the living room. This includes the fact that the living room ceiling was low and someone swinging a bat or club, as MacDonald described, would have hit the ceiling. There were no marks on the ceiling. With four people fighting, moving around, and the girl moving to stay out of the way, the living room should have been in a shambles! And it all took place in the dark, with out any sounds being heard? Nope.

bbm
Yep, it's definitely Nope.
Further, how could he read what kind of shirt one of them was wearing in total darkness -- he said that it was a GI uniform shirt on in total darkness -- he id'd the rank in total darkness. He id'd the weapon in total darkness; he id'd the races of the intruders in total darkness. He said the woman had on boots in total darkness - shiny boots. She was carrying a candle -- I guess that candle lit up the entire room. One candle. SMH. Idiot.
Many people think that when you are cooking up an alibi or recounting an event that did not happen, etc., be specific with lotsa details. Well, that's an old ploy, it usually backfires, and experienced LE usually don't buy it. It makes LE even more suspicious, and the teller of the tale now owns that explanation; so he had to remember it and stick by what he said -- he couldn't renege and tell a better, more reasonable lie after having more time to think of a better scenario.
And I have never heard of one of the paramedics tidying up the place (greeting cards), especially when three people,are dead or nearly so. Blood everywhere, and horrible wounds on those three victims, but not on MacD. Three of them being horribly beaten and/or slashed, and they are dying or dead. The EMTs know to scoop 'em up and get them in an ambulance and try to keep them alive until they're taken into hospital.
One more thing -- our next-door neighbors at the time it happened, had lived on that base years before, and they had lived in that same neighborhood. They said you could hear the flush of a commode (their literal words), someone laugh, or sneeze, or hear a baby cry in the next-door apartment -- that's what made them skeptical from the get-go. Not possible, they said. I have never forgotten that.

Short answer -- Nope
Long answer -- Hell, nope.

 

[Satch]

bbm
Yep, it's definitely Nope.
Further, how could he read what kind of shirt one of them was wearing in total darkness -- he said that it was a GI uniform shirt on in total darkness -- he id'd the rank in total darkness. He id'd the weapon in total darkness; he id'd the races of the intruders in total darkness. He said the woman had on boots in total darkness - shiny boots. She was carrying a candle -- I guess that candle lit up the entire room. One candle. SMH. Idiot.
Many people think that when you are cooking up an alibi or recounting an event that did not happen, etc., be specific with lotsa details. Well, that's an old ploy, it usually backfires, and experienced LE usually don't buy it. It makes LE even more suspicious, and the teller of the tale now owns that explanation; so he had to remember it and stick by what he said -- he couldn't renege and tell a better, more reasonable lie after having more time to think of a better scenario.
And I have never heard of one of the paramedics tidying up the place (greeting cards), especially when three people,are dead or nearly so. Blood everywhere, and horrible wounds on those three victims, but not on MacD. Three of them being horribly beaten and/or slashed, and they are dying or dead. The EMTs know to scoop 'em up and get them in an ambulance and try to keep them alive until they're taken into hospital.
One more thing -- our next-door neighbors at the time it happened, had lived on that base years before, and they had lived in that same neighborhood. They said you could hear the flush of a commode (their literal words), someone laugh, or sneeze, or hear a baby cry in the next-door apartment -- that's what made them skeptical from the get-go. Not possible, they said. I have never forgotten that.

Short answer -- Nope
Long answer -- Hell, nope.

What is still strange is that according to FV. nobody on the base heard any evidence of a struggle in the early morning hours of February 17, 1070. I remember with one exception from FV a Mrs. Kallen who said that "She was awakened from sleep by the sound of Collette's voice that she said "sounded mad enough to kill." She testified to the effect of the following. (May not be exact, but close. )

"What do you think I am going to be doing when you are doing all this? If you touch one hair on those children's heads, I'll kill you!" Than a short time later, she heard what she said sounded like the voice of Jeffrey MacDonald, either laughing or crying hysterically." How far did the Kallen's live from the McDonald's?

Yes, the living room is too neat, and for MacDonald to remember to have seen such details in total darkness seems not plausible. Even if there was a flashlight or a candle as he claimed a woman in a floppy hat was holding, I don't think that would have made too much of a difference.. Freddy Kassab, when he toured the apartment with LE, was further able to determine that McDonald's story did not match the physical evidence found at the scene. At if this had been an attack, one or more of those hippies would have been seriously injured or even dead in a fight with a Green Barret. Who is crazy enough to break into the house of a Green Baret Army doctor and attack his pregnant wide and two little girls? Did they really think they were going to win? And why leave the main person (that you would want to kill) alive who could come back and identify you. If MacDonald was telling the truth, he would be more injured. And the alleged hippies were not injured at all. And the bloody hands or whatever on a supposed witness at Dunken Donuts according to FJ, I don't think was ever verified.

But it has been may years since I have read FV (Fatal Vision) and FJ (Fatal Justice.)

Satch

 

[borndem]

Yep again, Satch.
I also remember those words from Ms. Kallen. What Collette was said to be telling MacD sounds like she was in a fight for her and her girls' lives, and she was indeed.

 

[mickey2942]

Back then, military ate amphetamines like they were candy. McDonald, a Green Beret, doctor...think he might have been working a bit too much? He comes home to pregnant wife, kid that pees in his bed...and he is frustrated with being "responsible daddy", he could be out enjoying life, not stuck with a wife and kids...he hits his daughter a bit too hard, smack, she hits the wall...Collette starts screaming, react, oh oh...can't fix this...

 

[borndem]

Yes, to the amphetamines -- in his log of the day's activities, he writes something like, "I may have taken a couple of Eskatrol..." If you look up Eskatrol, you will see that 1) it was taken off the market years ago, and 2) it is a combination of amphetamines and tranquilizers. MacD was working at the base, at a nearby non-military hospital ER, and he had just found another hospital to do ER work. Anything to keep him from having to be at home. He had been up about 26 hours.

It's not difficult to imagine him losing his temper when he went to bed found his side wet. No excuse for the murder of the ones who loved him best, certainly, but it would surely pizz me off. Colleen was pregnant -- getting bigger every day -- added pressure on both of them -- she was going to a class one or two nights a week and studying, she had the two girls all day, no help from him at home, MacD was talking about going to Russia (a big fat lie), and she thought he was running around on her (he was). So it's not hard for me to imagine those two having quite an argument. And their marriage was a "have-to" since she was already pregnant those few years before. They were young and each had a big load to carry. So the stage was set for a big one.

 

[katydid23]

There is one thing I know for certain. If my husband was in the living room, and 3 intruders came in, and threatened our children, my husband would be DEAD on the floor, before anyone killed the babies. He would fight to the death before giving up.

Just the fact that a Green Beret father was the only one left alive, tells me all I need to know.

 

[SwennyNC]

Have any of you read fatal justice?

Great Book. And it convinced me he was innocent.
Respectfully Submitted,
Duane

 

[Satch]

Great Book. And it convinced me he was innocent.
Respectfully Submitted,
Duane

FJ was a very good book, working with what they had. At the time I read FJ about two years after reading FV and thought Mcdonald was innocent and at the very least deserved a new trial. I even wrote a paper on this, and a letter that I shared with the authors, They shared my letter with McDonald and he actually wrote to me, thanking me for my support of the book and the efforts that Jerry and Fred did.

However, a re-investigation of the case shows that FJ does the same things that it accuses FV of doing. One example are the small unidentified fibers found in the home. P & B the authors of FJ say in the FOA documents that the lab tech said "They aren't going to be reported by me." But several of us, we went back and found the lab notes which actually read, "They aren't going to be reported by me because they are too small to test." But if you just read FJ, you think that there was this big conspiracy about the government railroading JM.

Another striking omission in FJ is that P&B omit the very important details of all of the Mac's PJ fibers found on Kim's bedding. JM has never been able to explain how the fibers got there, Jeff simply had to be on Kim's bed and very likely attacking her to explain the torn fibers. FJ also fails to account for the fact of the torn rubber glove fragment found in the bedding of either one of the girls or Colette matched the gloves in composition to the ones that were found underneath the sink.

And if JM is innocent, why is that living room so neat where the alleged struggle happened? There's only about four feet of space between the couch and the coffee table in that living room. Four people could hardly stand in such a small space, let alone fight. And even if you take into account the hippie story, what hippies are going to be stupid enough to break into a home of a sleeping Green Barett Army Captain with a wife and two little girls? How did they know that where Jeff would be when they came into the house? And Jeff had minor wounds compared to the rest of the family. Yet none of the hippies are injured at all? Where did the womanin the floppy hat get the candle? She could not have lit it outside because it was raining and the wick would have been wet. Even if that was Helena Stockley or anybody else, she would have had to have found someplace to light this candle and do it in a total stranger's house? How did the intruders know the house so well, as to escape uninjured? There are a host of other things that don't add up at all.

We have a poster on this forum who had friends who lived in the McDonald's apartment shortly after they did. The poster claimed that their friends could hear everything from coughing to a toilet flushing to a baby crying. The testimony of Mrs. Kalin, at trial in FV said that she was "awakened by the sound of Collette's angry voice....mad enough to kill." She claimed to have heard, "What do you think I am going to be doing, when you are doing all this? If you touch any hair on those children's head's...I'll kill you." Both of Collette's arms were shown to be broken in self-defense.

They also did DNA testing from the alleged intruders in the house, and found no match. Yes, there were mistakes made in collecting and preserving the evidence, but there's not enough there to bring about reasonable doubt as to JM guilt. His scenario is Unreasonable Doubt, which does not match the physical evidence of the crime scene.

Satch

 

[borndem]

You nailed it, Satch. The jury had it right 100%.
JMac was not nearly as smart as he thought he was, and he only fooled a few of the people part of the time. And he never fooled the investigators.

 

[Paul B.]

@Satch @borndem At least JMac didn't take the Coward's Way Out (to quote the movie Father). Judith Barsi (who played toddler Kim in "Fatal Vision") didn't get Earthly justice. Her father-murder killed himself rather than be arrested by the police.

 

[SwennyNC]

As to the

FJ was a very good book, working with what they had. At the time I read FJ about two years after reading FV and thought Mcdonald was innocent and at the very least deserved a new trial. I even wrote a paper on this, and a letter that I shared with the authors, They shared my letter with McDonald and he actually wrote to me, thanking me for my support of the book and the efforts that Jerry and Fred did.

However, a re-investigation of the case shows that FJ does the same things that it accuses FV of doing. One example are the small unidentified fibers found in the home. P & B the authors of FJ say in the FOA documents that the lab tech said "They aren't going to be reported by me." But several of us, we went back and found the lab notes which actually read, "They aren't going to be reported by me because they are too small to test." But if you just read FJ, you think that there was this big conspiracy about the government railroading JM.

Another striking omission in FJ is that P&B omit the very important details of all of the Mac's PJ fibers found on Kim's bedding. JM has never been able to explain how the fibers got there, Jeff simply had to be on Kim's bed and very likely attacking her to explain the torn fibers. FJ also fails to account for the fact of the torn rubber glove fragment found in the bedding of either one of the girls or Colette matched the gloves in composition to the ones that were found underneath the sink.

And if JM is innocent, why is that living room so neat where the alleged struggle happened? There's only about four feet of space between the couch and the coffee table in that living room. Four people could hardly stand in such a small space, let alone fight. And even if you take into account the hippie story, what hippies are going to be stupid enough to break into a home of a sleeping Green Barett Army Captain with a wife and two little girls? How did they know that where Jeff would be when they came into the house? And Jeff had minor wounds compared to the rest of the family. Yet none of the hippies are injured at all? Where did the womanin the floppy hat get the candle? She could not have lit it outside because it was raining and the wick would have been wet. Even if that was Helena Stockley or anybody else, she would have had to have found someplace to light this candle and do it in a total stranger's house? How did the intruders know the house so well, as to escape uninjured? There are a host of other things that don't add up at all.

We have a poster on this forum who had friends who lived in the McDonald's apartment shortly after they did. The poster claimed that their friends could hear everything from coughing to a toilet flushing to a baby crying. The testimony of Mrs. Kalin, at trial in FV said that she was "awakened by the sound of Collette's angry voice....mad enough to kill." She claimed to have heard, "What do you think I am going to be doing, when you are doing all this? If you touch any hair on those children's head's...I'll kill you." Both of Collette's arms were shown to be broken in self-defense.

They also did DNA testing from the alleged intruders in the house, and found no match. Yes, there were mistakes made in collecting and preserving the evidence, but there's not enough there to bring about reasonable doubt as to JM guilt. His scenario is Unreasonable Doubt, which does not match the physical evidence of the crime scene.

Satch

The poster who said they lived in the McDonald's Apt "shortly after they died" is a liar. The McDonald Family Quarters were SEALED until his conviction in 1982.

The blue threads under the bodies- His pajama bottoms were ripped from crotch to knee, according to ER personel who treated Mr. McDonald. Now, if these pj's were ripped and dropping fibers, as he went to check on his family members, (as a doctor would) those fibers would get under, around and on the bodies. That enough is reasonable doubt. And regarding "reasonable doubt", there's enough in this case for an acquittal at best, and a second look at worst.

Respectfully submitted,
Swenny

 

[mickey2942]

What I found interesting about this case, pre-DNA, was the conclusive trail of blood, and the rare event that every single person in the family had a different blood type. A, B, AB, and O. That was statistically significant. And the blood told the story.

No other blood types were found in the house. McDonald is either the wimpiest Green Beret, if he couldn't even hit ONE attacker in the living room, and make one have a bloody nose for evidence of anyone else in that house. Or, he killed his family.

 

[Satch]

As to the


The poster who said they lived in the McDonald's Apt "shortly after they died" is a liar. The McDonald Family Quarters were SEALED until his conviction in 1982.

The blue threads under the bodies- His pajama bottoms were ripped from crotch to knee, according to ER personel who treated Mr. McDonald. Now, if these pj's were ripped and dropping fibers, as he went to check on his family members, (as a doctor would) those fibers would get under, around and on the bodies. That enough is reasonable doubt. And regarding "reasonable doubt", there's enough in this case for an acquittal at best, and a second look at worst.

Respectfully submitted,
Swenny

It's possible that the people might have lived there before. You are correct, they would have to seal off the property. Convicted in 1979, sealed off in 1982.

Satch

 

[Satch]

What I found interesting about this case, pre-DNA, was the conclusive trail of blood, and the rare event that every single person in the family had a different blood type. A, B, AB, and O. That was statistically significant. And the blood told the story.

No other blood types were found in the house. McDonald is either the wimpiest Green Beret, if he couldn't even hit ONE attacker in the living room, and make one have a bloody nose for evidence of anyone else in that house. Or, he killed his family.

A good point, not even a hit to one attacker. He said that he was caught with the PJ top over his head. When I was younger I had turtle necks and would sometimes get stuck in them trying to get them over my head. But at the same time, I am not fighting for my life and my family either. A Green Barret is going to be trained in combat. And how he can describe these people in such a dark room raises further questions. A lit candle would not have helped that much. And Freddy Kassab claimed that McDonald needed glasses to read or drive a car. He had the correct lights on that McDonald said were on at the time of the attack with two of the investigators standing near the couch, and Freddy could barely identify them. All of the family members having a different blood type could explain who was in each room and help track the movements of everyone.

Even though I now believe that JM is guilty, I always wanted to know more about Helena Stockley and her friends and the Jimmy Friar phone call. Even now, I would LOVE to get the phone records from that night! But I don't think there is enough there that overturns the conviction. Even if you have unidentified hair fibers or candle wax or fingerprints, that's not proof of intruders. The Macdonalds had guests who certainly left fingerprints on things. And all that says to me was that Collette was not big on house cleaning. We need DNA forensics from the intruders to clear Macdonald of these crimes. We almost need a tape of someone else committing this murder.

Satch