CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #20 *ARREST*

[Check21]

I just finished listening to the presser and the DA said several times these were theories of how she was murdered. He also said the solicitation to murder was not a theory. I think this means they have solid evidence he attempted to hire 3 different people to murder her but at this point they don't know how she was murdered. They have charged him with 2 separate counts because they don't know but think one of them will stick.

 

[riolove77]

There were some things asked that I could not get to before the thread closed. If I miss anything, please just ask again! I'm home battling a head cold (yay NYE!) and a needy Chihuahua haha.

There is no need to NOT charge felony murder if they have solicitation too. Solicitation does not merge unless it turns into conspiracy. So you can have solicitation and murder, or you can have conspiracy and murder; you CANNOT have solicitation and conspiracy, or solicitation, conspiracy, and murder. Unless we start getting into multiple solicitees, so to speak, but I'll leave that until if/when we find out there were more people in fact involved.

If PF asked Bob (made up name) to commit murder and Bob agreed, a conspiracy charge might still come. At this point though, I'm thinking Bob did NOT agree because Bob would likely have been charged with murder by now. It's been 10 days since PF's arrest. So in this scenario, we have a solicitation charge for Bob being asked by PF, and then a murder charge for PF.

Yes, I have seen sealed arrest warrants for longer than 10 days. I know it seems like forever, but it's only been 10! It will eventually come.

Someone asked about him talking. I am personally of the opinion that he will not talk. He will take his chances at trial. I don't think we have a CW issue here where he did not want people to see and hear what he had done. Again, I could be wrong, but I do not think CW pled to avoid the DP. I think he pled to avoid trial. Something tells me PF will take this all the way, but hey, you never know.

 

[riolove77]

Can a DA produce a theory of cause of death to a jury without a body?
I would really like to know her cause of death. To this day, I wonder how Laci Peterson died. I think most people thought he strangled her. I always hope the deaths are quick, if there is such a thing in a murder case.

Yes. They have to have enough to have gotten this far. It's harder of course. A body is always desired. But there's gotta be something they have that points to her being dead; for example, if they have blood and brain matter, they may not be able to distinguish between gunshot would to the head (GSW) or blunt force trauma (BFT) to the head. But they have enough biological material to know she's dead.

 

[Inthedetails]

There were some things asked that I could not get to before the thread closed. If I miss anything, please just ask again! I'm home battling a head cold (yay NYE!) and a needy Chihuahua haha.

There is no need to NOT charge felony murder if they have solicitation too. Solicitation does not merge unless it turns into conspiracy. So you can have solicitation and murder, or you can have conspiracy and murder; you CANNOT have solicitation and conspiracy, or solicitation, conspiracy, and murder. Unless we start getting into multiple solicitees, so to speak, but I'll leave that until if/when we find out there were more people in fact involved.

If PF asked Bob (made up name) to commit murder and Bob agreed, a conspiracy charge might still come. At this point though, I'm thinking Bob did NOT agree because Bob would likely have been charged with murder by now. It's been 10 days since PF's arrest. So in this scenario, we have a solicitation charge for Bob being asked by PF, and then a murder charge for PF.

Yes, I have seen sealed arrest warrants for longer than 10 days. I know it seems like forever, but it's only been 10! It will eventually come.

Someone asked about him talking. I am personally of the opinion that he will not talk. He will take his chances at trial. I don't think we have a CW issue here where he did not want people to see and hear what he had done. Again, I could be wrong, but I do not think CW pled to avoid the DP. I think he pled to avoid trial. Something tells me PF will take this all the way, but hey, you never know.

Can you explain (in lay terms!) the difference between solicitation and conspiracy? Sorry if this has been covered before, but I'm guessing I'm not the only one who could use a tutorial on these terms. TIA.

 

[v0x]

So, in the Reuter’s article today:

“Colorado law allows prosecutors to lodge multiple murder charges for a single killing under different theories. Frazee did not enter a plea at Monday’s hearing.”

Colorado man charged with murder in missing mother case | Reuters

So, am I misunderstanding, or will one of those be dropped, and the other stand once this are determined?

If so, and it’s the charge that mentions robbery that stands, perhaps, a robbery charge would be added to the list at that time?

Perhaps an expert can weigh in here? TIA

 

[Trudie]

You would think they would have to have some evidence for the judge to agree to this though, right?

Surely it’s not to avoid giving him an edge, in preparing defense? Is it or could it be that an arrest of one or more is imminent? Until that person is incarcerated they are afraid PF could get a message to him? Thru his atty to his mom to John Doe?


Well, PF, you certainly got your new year off to one heck of a start & ruined it for many.

(Rio, tysm for your answer quoted in #24)

 

[OldLadyBlues]

This case is making my head hurt. When were the custody papers filed because they were filed BEFORE KB died. Who filed them and why?
IMHO, this very well was when KB realized who and what she was playing with in PF and perhaps his motive. He wouldn't be the first man to have a switch flipped on custody.
MOO, MOO

EDIT: Administrator could you delete for innacuracy, please? Requested by me.

 

[riolove77]

Can you explain (in lay terms!) the difference between solicitation and conspiracy? Sorry if this has been covered before, but I'm guessing I'm not the only one who could use a tutorial on these terms. TIA.

No problem!

Solicitation does not require the person solicited agree to the crime. For example: John asks Bob to kill his wife. John explains how he wants this done, and even pulls out a gun for Bob to do it. Bob says he will think about it, but goes straight to the police. In this case, Bob is not culpable, because he never agreed to or intended to commit the murder. However, John obviously did and took the step (gun, money) to have it done; it wasn't just random babble about wanting his wife dead, over beers with a friend.

Conspiracy requires two or more people AGREEING to commit a crime, and then taking at least one step towards the commission of it. Both people are culpable here. John asks Bob to kill his wife. Bob agrees. John gives Bob a gun and some cash as a down payment. He draws a map of the house and they agree for Bob to show up at midnight on Tuesday to commit the crime. Bob drives to the house at 11:45 on the night in question, but a neighbor sees something shady and intervenes or calls the cops. Or, the murder does in fact happen. Either way, killing or not, the conspiracy has been completed upon the agreement and step towards it.

 

[riolove77]

So, in the Reuter’s article today:

“Colorado law allows prosecutors to lodge multiple murder charges for a single killing under different theories. Frazee did not enter a plea at Monday’s hearing.”

Colorado man charged with murder in missing mother case | Reuters

So, am I misunderstanding, or will one of those be dropped, and the other stand once this are determined?

If so, and it’s the charge that mentions robbery that stands, perhaps, a robbery charge would be added to the list at that time?

Perhaps an expert can weigh in here? TIA

It doesn't have to be dropped; but he can only be convicted of one.

 

[Stunned]

Wow, didn’t even put him in the same category as El Chapo, but desperate men do desperate things....

 

[Mom24]

I'm surprised if they know there was a solicitation for murder and others involved in her killing, why hasn't anyone else been arrested? Could it be because they can't locate the person?

 

[v0x]

It doesn't have to be dropped; but he can only be convicted of one.

Can you clarify on the robbery part? TIA

 

[enelram]

I know the Feds have the Witness Protection Program where
the witness is given a whole new identity and location, but
what does the state do to protect witnesses prior to trial?

In the El Chapo trial I read that the identity of witnesses was
not given to defense atty's until the night before their trial
testimony. too many witnesses and judges had already been
murdered in this case in Mexico.

Oregon now has a program set up to help protect witnesses
prior to trial. Not too many other states that I can find.

Oregon prosecutors develop new safety plan for witnesses in criminal cases

 

[Just the Fax]

So, it does look like the 'robbery' was the cell phone, MOO.
"committed" or "attempted to commit robbery"..."in the course of that crime" OR "immediate flight" (right after), the death of Kelsey Berreth.

The additional robbery charge (proven with phone in Idaho) results in first degree murder by default. This gives them another avenue for conviction in case he tries to say a sudden argument caused her 'unintended death' (2nd degree or manslaughter).

 

[Concernedmamaof3]

If PF asked Bob (made up name) to commit murder and Bob agreed, a conspiracy charge might still come. At this point though, I'm thinking Bob did NOT agree because Bob would likely have been charged with murder by now. It's been 10 days since PF's arrest. So in this scenario, we have a solicitation charge for Bob being asked by PF, and then a murder charge for PF.

In your opinion, if the or one of the people solicited was cooperating with police, would that be a reason for no arrests/plea deals/etc.?

 

[Trudie]

Consumptive evidence?

What do you think it is? I’m interested to hear everyone’s guess.

I’m torn between a droplet of fluid/stain found on a floor or wall OR a cloth or towel used in clean up. I’m leaning more towards a most minute stain (saliva, vomit, blood splatter) that was missed during a “potential” wipe down.

 

[Love Never Fails]

Yes. They have to have enough to have gotten this far. It's harder of course. A body is always desired. But there's gotta be something they have that points to her being dead; for example, if they have blood and brain matter, they may not be able to distinguish between gunshot would to the head (GSW) or blunt force trauma (BFT) to the head. But they have enough biological material to know she's dead.

Thank you. Can the DA then present a picture to the jury, in other words saying she died of blunt force trauma? Or would he/she have the forensic pathologist just describe the injuries to her head?

 

[Ultra Violet]

I just finished listening to the presser and the DA said several times these were theories of how she was murdered. He also said the solicitation to murder was not a theory. I think this means they have solid evidence he attempted to hire 3 different people to murder her but at this point they don't know how she was murdered. They have charged him with 2 separate counts because they don't know but think one of them will stick.

I may be misunderstanding your post, but in the last thread @Mercedes addresses legal theory vs. theory:

Deceased/Not Found - CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #19 *ARREST*


“Legal theory is a principle that a litigant (or DA in this case) bases its claims in a case. It can also be the law under which the DA proceeds.

That is different than a plain old theory that is used to justify a condition or event. Such as a scientific theory.”

 

[cody22]

In your opinion, if the or one of the people solicited was cooperating with police, would that be a reason for no arrests/plea deals/etc.?

I believe the "person solicited" and possibly " whoever had the phone" coming forward is what broke this case open....MOO

 

[Jessthinkin]

This case is making my head hurt. When were the custody papers filed because they were filed BEFORE KB died. Who filed them and why?
IMHO, this very well was when KB realized who and what she was playing with in PF and perhaps his motive. He wouldn't be the first man to have a switch flipped on custody.
MOO, MOO

My understanding is that @gitana1 responded to this issue and cleared up that the custody case was not initiated before KB’s disappearance, nor by KB herself.... has that understanding changed? If it has, then I do agree that adds to motive...