CANADA Canada - Elizabeth Bain, 22, Scarborough, Ont, 19 June 1990 #2

[Woodland]

From the Globe and Mail 18 Mar 2014.

But a Toronto police document has surfaced that casts doubt on Mr. Baltovich's conviction and raises questions about why it was not previously turned over to his lawyers. Notes from a 1990 interview of two experts at the Centre of Forensic Sciences conducted by Detective Sergeant Brian Raybould indicate that the forensic evidence was not consistent with Ms. Bain being killed, her body hidden and then transported in her car more than two days later.

At the meeting with the forensic experts, Mr. Raybould's notes say he was told Ms. Bain's car contained more blood than there should be from a body that had decomposed for two or three days. The blood smears would have been darker, and there was no odour, which was inconsistent with a decomposing body placed inside.

Lawsuit uncovers new evidence in Elizabeth Bain murder mystery

So CFS said (from the beginning) that a body lying on the ground for 2-3 days was not placed in EB's car. Imo - no debris, ie dirt, leaves, decomp material was found.

My interpretation is - no body was ever placed EB's vehicle.

 

[eyesonly]

"So CFS said (from the beginning) that a body lying on the ground for 2-3 days was not placed in EB's car. Imo - no debris, ie dirt, leaves, decomp material was found.
My interpretation is - no body was ever placed EB's vehicle."

Hey Woodland:
I just want to get a clarification from your interpretation please.
Is your interpretation of no body ever in the car just for the friday morning in relation to the TPS/Crown's theory or is it no body in the car ever at anytime from the tues night until the car was found on Friday afternoon.

Thanks

 

[Woodland]

My interpretation is that CFS is saying there was never a body in EB's car, at any point in time.

CFS only examined the car after it was found - if there was any evidence in it, I have to think they would speak up. They couldn't attribute a particular day to any evidence even if they did find some. Imo, no odor speaks volumes.

 

[eyesonly]

""My interpretation is that CFS is saying there was never a body in EB's car, at any point in time.""

What the blood expert and pathologist were saying, as per the Nov 22nd interview with the Detective that was hidden, was that a deceased body can bleed redish blood up to 3hrs after death has occured.
Their findings eliminate Friday because any fluid leaking from a deceased body that had been laying in the valley for two days would have been more brownish, and their would have been an obvious odour left after driving the body 45 mins or more away from the park. And there would have been some evidence of decomposition bugs in the car.
Their findings are in line with her deceased body being placed directly on the back seat floor immediately after death and there for up to 3 hours afterwards.
Neither the CFS, the blood expert nor the pathologist have ever made any conclusion or suggestion that a body was never in the car at any time.
If you would like to override their expert opinions, that is your opinionable right.
I just wanted to clarify what the expert opinions meant and what they testified to, for any new people that may be reading this.

No disrespect intended Woodland.

 

[will4u]

forget all about the car,

EB body may never have even left the Bian home or property

 

[Woodland]

You present a good argument eyesonly, no doubt about it. But it's the argument presented at RB's trial. We know how that worked out. There is a difference imo, in what was presented then and what the interpretation should be now.

So CFS found blood - that's it, they found blood. We have already established on these threads that the quantity of blood found in her car was less than one would donate in a single sitting and, that the blood belonged to a female offspring of of Mr and Mrs Bain. That's one of two people. The blood was never attributed to Elizabeth and only Elizabeth.

No evidence of a body in the car has been presented, not even in your statements - however, at trial one would have been led to believe that EB's body was in fact in the car - by deception. Raybould wanted a conviction on a no body case - period. RB was convicted on EB was in that car after a couple of days - we now know that was not possible.

The thread has been through this before so I ask again - how can one believe what TPS said at the time, which was the wrong person, then be asked to believe that TPS had the right scenario but the wrong guy?

Like the post above says - she may have never left home. There is no proof that she did - other than what her mom said.

 

[eyesonly]

"then be asked to believe that TPS had the right scenario but the wrong guy?"

No, the TPS had the wrong guy and the wrong scenario.

"forget all about the car,"

Now that's just silly, imo.

 

[eyesonly]

Go ahead and lay out your no body, no car, no whatever theories.
Have at it, and I will stay out of both of your ways.
Respect.

Eyesonly

 

[will4u]

"forget all about the car,"

Now that's just silly, imo.

Why is it silly?

The Bain house and property were never searched (that I know of), the evidence could have been right there under the TPS noses, and they never knew it

 

[Woodland]

C'mon eyes, don't go.

Imo you brought an invaluable piece of evidence to the thread - the Bain family phone bill from Jun 1990. It showed the use of calling cards by some in the family and is a good explanation for why the home phone was constantly busy into the late hours of the night EB went missing. The family could easily have been talking/planning with Mr B in Florida and the call could have been charged to a work phone or any other phone where TPS would not see it.

You also know who knows who in the case.

If people disagree with any of your theories expect some push back. I get push back all the time, it's no biggie. Cheers!

 

[Woodland]

Why is it silly?

The Bain house and property were never searched (that I know of), the evidence could have been right there under the TPS noses, and they never knew it

In plain sight is apparently the best place to hide.

 

[eyesonly]

Hey Woodland, I have no intentions of going anywhere. Sorry if I gave that impression. I understand the theory you and will4u are putting across, and I wanted you two to expand on your ideas without interference.

"Why is it silly?"
will4u:
The car is really the only physical evidence that exists and it contains forensic evidence.
Whether that forensic evidence points to a body in the car, or to planted blood evidence, it is a crucial factor to either theory and should not be ignored.
That's what I meant. I think I should have used a better term than I did, my apologies.

 

[will4u]

TPS dropped the ball when they failed to search the Bain home and property, this should have been done right away, even if she was only considered a runaway at that point it still should have been done for clues as to why she ran away,

Her bedroom was never searched, yet RB was allowed to remove pages from a diary a few days later, why?

In all reality, this case could be as simple as EB being buried under the basement floor of the Bain home, they would have had all the time in the world to do it, nobody ever searched the home or property....why?

Personally I am not believing any of the nonsense that is spewed from any of the Bain family members,

My questions are,

- When was the last time EB was CONFIRMED to be off the Bain property by anybody else other then a family member?

- What was the date and time EB was CONFIRMED to have attended a scheduled class at UofT? (by anybody else other then a member of the Bain family)

- What was the first CONFIRMED date and time of the first scheduled class that EB was absent for? (confirmed by anybody else other then a member of the Bain family)

Personally I am not believing MrsB when she said EB "went to check the tennis schedule", that is just nonsense and here-say as it has never been 100% confirmed,

TPS just had tunnel vision on RB and refused to explore any other options, desperate to make an arrest,

The blood was planted in the car IMO and was a perfect distraction from the family, that made the TPS focus on the car and RB,

At that point all the Bain family had to do is sit and agree and nod their heads when it came to questions about RB,

Plant blood from EB sister CB in the car, place the car at the body shop, and have brother PB "find" the car seemingly only hours later....LOL

so brother PB was able to find the car before TPS could even though the car was in plain view from a busy street.....give me a break,

something stinks here people

 

[will4u]

Bain family doesn't want the case reopened and investigated any further, why not? what would they have to lose?

Because they are convinced RB was the killer? like they keep saying?

NO! It's because they fear the TRUTH will come out about their cover up!!

 

[eyesonly]

TPS dropped the ball when they failed to search the Bain home and property, this should have been done right away, even if she was only considered a runaway at that point it still should have been done for clues as to why she ran away,
--------this was almost 29yrs ago and EB was a 22yr old woman (23 in a month), free to do what she wanted and go away and not tell anyone. She would not be considered a "runaway" so to speak at that age.
I'm not disagreeing with you, but we have to put ourselves back in that time period. Any police force wouldn't move on it for at least 48hrs, other than take an initial report, which they did, twice on the Wednesday.

Her bedroom was never searched, yet RB was allowed to remove pages from a diary a few days later, why?
------actually RB took some diary pages on the Wednesday, the day she was reported missing and had Mr B's permission to do so. They were looking for any clues to where she might be. RB returned the diary pages by Friday. So RB borrowed the diary pages before the TPS would have gotten fully involved other than the reports taken that day.
However, I agree with you that a quick search of her room by one of the two officers on the Wednesday would have been more than appropriate.

In all reality, this case could be as simple as EB being buried under the basement floor of the Bain home, they would have had all the time in the world to do it, nobody ever searched the home or property....why?
-----one of the lead Detectives, who was called in to the case on the Friday evening, said one of the first things he did was walk the Bain property. I don't know exactly what day he did that, but he was looking for anything out of the ordinary, any disturbed ground and stuff like that. But I don't think the inside of the house was ever searched to any degree. You have to understand that they were on to RB on the Thursday, just two days after she disappeared and they never looked back, so they never gave the family any thought whatsoever.

Personally I am not believing any of the nonsense that is spewed from any of the Bain family members,
-------and when RB gets his suit settled, and is able to bring everything out in the open, hopefully the public will feel this way too

My questions are,

- When was the last time EB was CONFIRMED to be off the Bain property by anybody else other then a family member?
--------guess you would have to define what you'd accept as confirmed

- What was the date and time EB was CONFIRMED to have attended a scheduled class at UofT? (by anybody else other then a member of the Bain family)
-------confirmed by RB, EB attended the thursday just prior to her disappearance. He waited for her as she came out of class. He also waited for her other times.

- What was the first CONFIRMED date and time of the first scheduled class that EB was absent for? (confirmed by anybody else other then a member of the Bain family)
-------confirmed by RB. EB missed her class the previous Tuesday, one week before her disappearance. She played tennis with RB, then she went and picked up a man from the group home she worked at to have a bit of a picnic with him.

Personally I am not believing MrsB when she said EB "went to check the tennis schedule", that is just nonsense and here-say as it has never been 100% confirmed,
-------Mrs B did tell police this on the Wednesday and it is in their report. Whether Mrs B was accurate or not, or she misinterpreted EB going to the campus, as the tennis courts because Mr B apparently played tennis alot, we may never know.

TPS just had tunnel vision on RB and refused to explore any other options, desperate to make an arrest,
----- 100% correct

The blood was planted in the car IMO and was a perfect distraction from the family, that made the TPS focus on the car and RB,
------ my question would be, why plant blood to bring a ton of attention. Why not just leave the car to make it look like she ran away. I don't see how planting blood would distract from the family. Looking back in hindsight is always 20-20 but at that time, they wouldn't have had a clue what the TPS would do. You would have had to be awfully experienced at planting blood to make it look like a body had been dragged in the car, to fool a whole government funded CFS team.

At that point all the Bain family had to do is sit and agree and nod their heads when it came to questions about RB,

Plant blood from EB sister CB in the car, place the car at the body shop, and have brother PB "find" the car seemingly only hours later....LOL
--------brother PB found the car three days later, not hours later. The car was seen on the Wednesday morning by the 3r auto owner, and his secretary, who viewed the car in the same spot each day until it was found on the Friday.

so brother PB was able to find the car before TPS could even though the car was in plain view from a busy street.....give me a break,
------- yes, very sketchy to say the least. As of Wednesday evening there was an all southern ontario Bolo out for the car, and how no police patrol car spotted the car before Friday is very suspect, especially when it was located literally about 2minutes from where RB told them he last saw the car on the Tuesday night.

something stinks here people

 

[Woodland]

There are a few things to discuss with this post eyesonly. You might need to defend and/or clarify a few statements.

Imo, no one is questioning the integrity of CFS in this case. I don't think they were fooled and reported their findings in a clear manner. Have not seen anyone question this - maybe you have a post to quote that shows otherwise?

CFS findings were not reported in a clear manner at trial - imo - and in the opinion of the amended RB lawsuit.

We established earlier in these threads that the blood (a minimal amount that no one would be considered dead from) had smear marks in one direction. Is this correct in your opinion? The smear marks went into the backseat of the car, but not out. How does one explain that when EB was not found in her car? One can ignore that, but not all will choose to do that.

Why would someone, who had just dragged EB from the park to her car, choose to put her in the back of her car when the trunk would have been much more convenient at that time? Under this theory, this person felt they had quite a lot of time to this without being seen.

Looking forward to your response.

 

[eyesonly]

There are a few things to discuss with this post eyesonly. You might need to defend and/or clarify a few statements.

Imo, no one is questioning the integrity of CFS in this case. I don't think they were fooled and reported their findings in a clear manner. Have not seen anyone question this - maybe you have a post to quote that shows otherwise?
-------- actually the integrity of the CFS in this case should be questioned. I view the blood expert and the pathologists opinions as separate from the CFS personel who were working directly on her car.

CFS findings were not reported in a clear manner at trial - imo - and in the opinion of the amended RB lawsuit.
-------they were reported exactly as the questions were put to them. And that's the problem. They do not expand beyond the exact question and since the defense had no information of what the blood meant, they couldn't go down that road.

We established earlier in these threads that the blood (a minimal amount that no one would be considered dead from) had smear marks in one direction. Is this correct in your opinion?
------ yes I agree with this, imo

The smear marks went into the backseat of the car, but not out. How does one explain that when EB was not found in her car? One can ignore that, but not all will choose to do that.
-------- I'm certainly not an expert to explain that, and I think the blood expert couldn't explain that either. He testified as to the direction of the smears show towards in the car from the passenger side, but we are all left with the question of how the body was removed from an expert's opinion.
The one thing I think is needed to be noted, is that the blood expert who gave this testimony, got his results from only looking at pictures he was provided by the forensic personal who took the pictures of the car. The blood expert never actually physically viewed or inspected EB's car at any time. So there could very well have been signs of removal that weren't caught on a photograph.
It has always been a question for me why this blood expert was never asked to inspect her car personally, but to provide opinions off just photographs. Seems like another part of the TPS conspiracy.
However this blood expert is the person who physically inspects RB's car when the TPS took possession of it, and he found absolutely nothing in relation to EB's disappearance.

Liy would someone, who had just dragged EB from the park to her car, choose to put her in the back of her car when the trunk would have been much more convenient at that time? Under this theory, this person felt they had quite a lot of time to this without being seen.
----- this TPS/Crown theory is a non-starter as far as I'm concerned. But to your questions.
The trunk was full of stuff, but still, you would think that the trunk would be the logical place one would put her. Throw the stuff out in the woods or even in the back seat and put the body in the trunk. What moron would drag a body and lay it in the back floor of a car that has had a province wide Bolo out on it for the last two days, and then drive it 45 plus mins out of the city and back.
This doesn't sound like the Genius psychopathic killer the TPS and the Crown labelled RB as.

Looking forward to your response.
----- looking forward to more questions and challenges
Cheers and Happy New Year

 

[eyesonly]

Quote from Woodland:
""We established earlier in these threads that the blood (a minimal amount that no one would be considered dead from) ""

I think we need to understand, as provided in the testimonies, that there doesn't always have to be vast amounts of blood loss for death to occur.
These are just my opinions.
1) The death and majority of blood loss could have occurred first outside the car.
2) Death could have occurred by a broken neck and when body laid on the floor in the back over the hump, so the head is lower than half the body, this could cause blood to leak out of the mouth and nose. (a scenario agreed by one of EB's relatives who was a wealthy surgeon from Boston I believe it was. JS who I search with and was involved in this search and the Best family since September of 1990, personally asked the doctor this question)
3) even certain knife wounds do not create that much blodb loss.
4) a blow to the head can kill but not create much blood loss if any but combine that with a broken nose that is bleeding
5) I believe the Nov 22nd note regarding the forensics that was buried, noted that a possibility for the blood loss was two blows to the head. But that was just an opinion on how the blood loss could occur and not based on any forensic evidence collected.

 

[kemo]

Very interesting discussion. A few points to consider:

Assuming that EB was killed outside of the vehicle and then put into it for transport to a dump site, putting the body in the back seat area and not the trunk is hard to explain. People do make bad decisions; particularly while under pressure. Is it possible that she was in rigor mortise and would not fit in the trunk?

A fatal stab wound would almost always result in a great deal of blood-loss but a wound to the abdomen can result in most of the bleeding going into thr abdominal cavity. Once the heart stops beating, bleeding out comes only from gravity. The location of he wound relative to the placement of the body would determine the amount of post mortem blood loss.

Head injuries can result in a lot of blood loss if the injury is not immediately fatal. Once the heartbeat stops, the bleeding would stop unless the body placement puts the head at a low point so that gravity would cause further blood loss.

 

[eyesonly]

Very interesting discussion. A few points to consider:

Assuming that EB was killed outside of the vehicle and then put into it for transport to a dump site, putting the body in the back seat area and not the trunk is hard to explain.
-------a possibility for this action is this was a 1981 Toyota tercel 2 door a very small car and the trunk was full of stuff. Being still daylight the killer may not have had the luxury of time.

People do make bad decisions; particularly while under pressure. Is it possible that she was in rigor mortise and would not fit in the trunk?
------ the blood expert felt that the color of the blood and smears were consistent with blood loss up to 3 hrs after death. He testified the forensics were consistent with a large bulky object with wet blood on it being dragged into the back floor area of the car.
To your question, I'm not an expert when rigor sets in and rigor was never mentioned in the testimonies as they did not have 100% evidence that a human body had been placed there.


A fatal stab wound would almost always result in a great deal of blood-loss but a wound to the abdomen can result in most of the bleeding going into thr abdominal cavity.
Once the heart stops beating, bleeding out comes only from gravity. The location of he wound relative to the placement of the body would determine the amount of post mortem blood loss.

Head injuries can result in a lot of blood loss if the injury is not immediately fatal. Once the heartbeat stops, the bleeding would stop unless the body placement puts the head at a low point so that gravity would cause further blood loss.
-------- unfortunately, without a body ever being found to this date, any speculation of how death occurred, is just that.
Thanks for posting Kemo, much appreciated.