CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #22 *ARREST*

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I’m going to say something really unpopular with regards to custody of the baby. Provided that KB’s parents are an appropriate home (and all indications appear that they are an excellent home) I believe they should get full custody. However, IF (and only if) the Frazee family members had nothing to do with the crime that ended KB’s life, I do believe that they should have visitation rights with the baby. Obviously the long distance will be an issue, and there’s will always be the pain of the tragedy of the crime, but to deprive a child of an entire group of people who love her, and vice versa is a different kind of crime. I hope time, faith and grace will peace to these heartbroken families.
 
Horrible, I wonder if they thought they’d not get her back?
But Ma F could have had the Bs to the ranch, IMO, for a few hours. Even if P didn’t wish to see them, he could have left, imo.
Trudie, you have horses, so I'd like to hear your opinion on this. In the aerial footage taken the day of the search of the Frazee ranch, I didn't like seeing those 2 horses standing in small, bare, muddy pens. It didn't look like they had water or hay containers.

Could it be that LE moved them there temporarily until the search was over? Or do you think that is how those horses were normally treated?

My heart sank when one of the officers was petting the brown horse's nose. That may be the only affection that horse had gotten in a long time.
 
That is what I remember. She moved to CO to be with PF. I read that KB worked at an aviation company in Pueblo before swicthing to Joss Aviation. She even worked at a coffee shop when first getting settled
in Woodland Park.

She definitely had stamina and determination. I think it's just that
she was trying so hard to make it work w/ the wrong guy who didn't deserve her.
KB worked at Springs Aviation in Peyton, CO in 2016 and was then
employed by Doss Aviation in Pueblo. We don't know when she worked at the coffee shop AFAIK. What is your source for "when first getting settled in Woodland Park?"

Here is what I've seen:

(2:36 mark) Kelsey worked at Costello Coffee for about 2 months.
 
I hope this is a point raised against SF's custody.
Why do this? What does SF have against the Berreth family?
Therefore amicable custody arrangements between the two families would not appear to be desirable.
Whether PF's sister intervenes or not is irrelevant.
Past actions by the Frazee family must surely have a bearing on custody.
Being mean, vindictive does not work.
MOO.
I agree, the whole withholding of the baby really speaks to me about the kind of people they are IMO. They do not deserve a close relationship with the baby JMO
 
I hope this is a point raised against SF's custody.
Why do this? What does SF have against the Berreth family?
Therefore amicable custody arrangements between the two families would not appear to be desirable.
Whether PF's sister intervenes or not is irrelevant.
Past actions by the Frazee family must surely have a bearing on custody.
Being mean, vindictive does not work.
MOO.

JMO
I hope the judge also considers that until the trial happens and until it is known who PF may have gotten any help from to carry out the murder plot and the hiding of the body and other evidence either before, during, or after the murder, then I think that should weigh heavily on who should care for the child at this point. At least until all facts are known.

I really think the safety of the child needs to be the primary focus at this point until all facts have been established.
 
You would, but you'd also be shocked how few rights DV victims still have and how many their perps do. I work the DV field. I was just doing research for work (because some of us are working very hard to change all that) last night and read the following facts in a scholarly article about what happens to women who kill their abusers in self-defense:

“Results showed that domestic violence victims had higher conviction rates and longer sentences than all others charged with homicide, including those with previous violent criminal records.”

“Overall, a white female defendant with no prior convictions or criminal history who was convicted by a jury of killing a white person could expect an average sentence of 10 to 30 years. However, if the woman was a victim of domestic violence, her predicted sentence increased to life.”

“Because the conviction rate was higher for victims of domestic violence, all of whom were women, the average sentences were longer for them than for all others, including batterers and men with criminal histories.”

Citation: Jacobsen, Carol, Mizga, Kammy, & D'Orio, Lynn. (2007). Battered woman, homicide convictions, and sentencing: The case of clemency. Hastings Women's Law Journal, 18(1), 31-65.

In 2017, in one of many such cases, a family court judge in Denver County found in a divorce that the wife was a victim of domestic violence and that he was concerned about the husband's mental state and inability to control his temper, and ordered him to anger management and counseling. However, the judge said, since the violence was only directed at the mother, he gave the father 50% parenting time (physical custody). All true, I was there. And this despite the FACT that in 30-60% of cases where DV is present, the children are also abused. (Domestic Violence and Co-occurrence with Child Abuse) Those are terrifying odds.

All that to say, yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if poor Baby K has to visit her murderous bio dad or some such baloney. :mad:

What??? This is absolutely appalling. Wow.

<modsnip: off topic>

How the justice system treats victims of DV is pretty disheartening...
 
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I believe this judge is a “she”

Actually never mind, I’m thinking of the criminal case, not sure about judge ruling on custody

ETA: No, I was right the first time, Judge Linda Billings-Vela

Quoting myself here, but it looks like it’s the same judge in both the criminal and custody hearings? Is that right?

Her name is coming up in articles for both. I assumed it would be two different judges.
 
Wow, everything was pretty quiet around here when I left off, but when I checked again, finally there was more news! I’m not sure how far we can go, so I will just say the latest news is not shocking at all ... sadly it’s the story we hear most often in these cases. I just hope that nothing is publicized too soon to jeopardize PF’s continued arrest. I always believed that LE were on top of everything and knew more than what they could say. Let’s hope all the guilty parties are rounded up soon! Good job LE!

It’s so frustrating that over and over, people like PF feel they need to murder their partner rather than simply walking away. I suppose they’re all so arrogant that they believe they will get away with it, but history should tell them they won’t. All IMHO ....
 
Well, I hope Frazee's action of not permitting the Berreth family to see the child, has now backfired.
This possibly would be how the Frazee family would bring up the child, if in their possession: to ignore KB's relationship, the Berreth family etc.
MOO.

It backfired badly and the victim is the child. I wish they'd slap a charge of child abuse on PF. I'll refrain from sharing a personal story but it is emotionally traumatizing for a baby her age to abruptly lose her primary caregiver. The result can be long-term separation anxiety...iow, lotsa tears and inability to be soothed. JMO
 
It could be that this judge doesn’t like to make snap decisions. She wants to give consideration and research to the legal arguments before weighing in. Nothing wrong with that. But there is potentially something wrong with the prosecution bringing the motion in the first place. It could potentially derail their case or be a basis for appeal. If PF did it, the last thing we should want is for the prosecution to mess it up with a serious procedural error.

Exactly my point. Who sealed the arrest warrant in the first place- judge. Who asked for it to remained sealed? DA. Who makes the decision if it remains sealed? Judge You said the judge was not happy with the sealed warrant. I was just reminding that is not the case since the Judge is the one making the decisions and trying to walk the fine legal line between protecting the rights of the defendant and protecting the witnesses involved in the case. So the judge unsealed it to the defense lawyers and decided to take a few more days- tomorrow- to decide on whether to unseal it to PF. If she was really unhappy with it, or concerned it could cause the case serious problems, she would have unsealed it to both at the last court date. She knows the law better than the media and the rest of us. My guess is she will unseal it to PF tomorrow. Prosecution got a few extra days of protection. PF's team of lawyers had a chance to read it and then discuss it with PF tomorrow. JMO
 
JMO
I hope the judge also considers that until the trial happens and until it is known who PF may have gotten any help from to carry out the murder plot and the hiding of the body and other evidence either before, during, or after the murder, then I think that should weigh heavily on who should care for the child at this point. At least until all facts are known.

I really think the safety of the child needs to be the primary focus at this point until all facts have been established.
Exactly. You have one side that appears to be “salt of the earth” type people.

The other side has a killer among them, and things are still unclear as to the entire picture.

We don’t know if anything criminal occurred, but until there is clarity as to the circumstances surrounding PF and his actions, it’s better to play it safe at this juncture.

Regardless, I don’t think the baby is in any sort of danger, but that’s not the point.

The worst thing that could happen is that the baby is torn away from her family again, and with Kelsey’s family having custody, there is a lesser degree of danger as to that happening again.

She’s where she should be.
 
JMO
I hope the judge also considers that until the trial happens and until it is known who PF may have gotten any help from to carry out the murder plot and the hiding of the body and other evidence either before, during, or after the murder, then I think that should weigh heavily on who should care for the child at this point. At least until all facts are known.

I really think the safety of the child needs to be the primary focus at this point until all facts have been established.
This!!!
 
And the F family are or will be the same. The lack of positivity towards P. I don’t have a link handy but I’ve followed many cases where the custodian is REQIRED to allow prison visits & arranged phone calls between a minor child & its murderous parent.

AKL MOO
Many states allow the severing of parental rights when someone is serving a long prison sentence.
 
Quoting myself here, but it looks like it’s the same judge in both the criminal and custody hearings? Is that right?

Her name is coming up in articles for both. I assumed it would be two different judges.
That is surprising - we have probate/guardianship judges, family law (DV) and criminal. these are two entirely separate matters IMO
 
I’m going to say something really unpopular with regards to custody of the baby. Provided that KB’s parents are an appropriate home (and all indications appear that they are an excellent home) I believe they should get full custody. However, IF (and only if) the Frazee family members had nothing to do with the crime that ended KB’s life, I do believe that they should have visitation rights with the baby. Obviously the long distance will be an issue, and there’s will always be the pain of the tragedy of the crime, but to deprive a child of an entire group of people who love her, and vice versa is a different kind of crime. I hope time, faith and grace will peace to these heartbroken families.

Google Crystal Rogers, see how the Judge just ruled in that case, pertaining to visitation with grandma.
 
Exactly my point. Who sealed the arrest warrant in the first place- judge. Who asked for it to remained sealed? DA. Who makes the decision if it remains sealed? Judge You said the judge was not happy with the sealed warrant. I was just reminding that is not the case since the Judge is the one making the decisions and trying to walk the fine legal line between protecting the rights of the defendant and protecting the witnesses involved in the case. So the judge unsealed it to the defense lawyers and decided to take a few more days- tomorrow- to decide on whether to unseal it to PF. If she was really unhappy with it, or concerned it could cause the case serious problems, she would have unsealed it to both at the last court date. She knows the law better than the media and the rest of us. My guess is she will unseal it to PF tomorrow. Prosecution got a few extra days of protection. PF's team of lawyers had a chance to read it and then discuss it with PF tomorrow. JMO
Agreed. The judge has decided to keep the warrant sealed, because she obviously saw some merit in that.

It is an unusual move, and one that requires a compelling reason to do so.

It’s something that cannot continue though, as no one wants the case thrown out for violating PF’s Sixth Amendment rights.

I fully expect the arrest affidavit to be released on Friday, or very soon after.
 
In a perfect world, the Fs would step aside, graciously.
Even if K had died from injuries in an accident or something, it stands to reason her family would wish to raise K’s child. Its so overly disgusting that K can’t raise her child because of P.

Moo
A perfect world for those who choose to be on the side of the Bs over the Ps, based largely on a bias against the family of the accused from what I can tell.

Why are the Bs more entitled to raise K than the Fs? The Fs are just as closely related to the baby. If Kelsey had died in a car accident, would it be okay to pick the B’s to raise K just because of the very non-Legal rationale of “well, they lost their daughter; let’s let them have the grand-daughter.” Like K is some kind of consolation prize.

I’m glad that the judge will have more information on which to base a decision on custody. Important stuff like providing for K financially and emotionally, which we posters have very little insight into.
 
A perfect world for those who choose to be on the side of the Bs over the Ps, based largely on a bias against the family of the accused from what I can tell.

Why are the Bs more entitled to raise K than the Fs? The Fs are just as closely related to the baby. If Kelsey had died in a car accident, would it be okay to pick the B’s to raise K just because of the very non-Legal rationale of “well, they lost their daughter; let’s let them have the grand-daughter.” Like K is some kind of consolation prize.

I’m glad that the judge will have more information on which to base a decision on custody. Important stuff like providing for K financially and emotionally, which we posters have very little insight into.
I know I am not personally biased against the PF family - I just feel very strongly that they should have embraced CB and her desire to see the baby and they did not. For whatever reason. So I stand firm, they don't get access until LE has made all of the arrests and completed their investigation into who all was involved in this murder and/or robbery IMO.
 
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