CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #24 *ARREST*

[PommyMommy]

I believe this is the same atty. that handled the Michael Jackson wrongful death suit.

I don't want to get off-topic, but are you sure you're not thinking about B.I.G.? There's an abbreviated list of interesting civil cases here and I would expect to see MJ on there if Sanders was involved in that case: Perry R. Sanders Jr. | Founding Partner | Sanders Law Firm, CO

 

[MsBetsy]

Well even if she tells the “whole story” there still has to be a trial as he is not about to just say oh okay, I did it.

Right, and he could always claim it was the other way around. Imo

 

[PommyMommy]

We are really fortunate to have several attorneys on KB's forum.

@gitana1, @PrairieWind, @Mercedes, if/as you have time, could you please share your insights about whether and how the B's civil suit will impact the criminal investigation?

My limited understanding of how it works is that the civil and criminal cases should run as parallel investigations, i.e., like railroad tracks, running side by side but never touching. Is that correct? Can info and discovery be shared between the 2 or would that jeopardize the criminal case?

Also @riolove77.

 

[Steelslady]

My first post in this thread I believe was how I’d never heard of a “false ping” in any other cases. I’m glad this turned out be a legitimate ping for not only this case, but others as well, because if “false pings” exist then this obviously creates a challenge for all cases. Hope that made sense.

I am totally in agreement with you, margarita! That had me nervous, too. I have heard in the distant past of false pings, but if I remember correctly, at least in one case, it turned out to be a real ping like this one.

 

[1mtroyal]

In my opinion, if the police find evidence of blood (or evidence blood was cleaned), they would take photos and swabs for DNA processing. (They would not take chunks of wall board). If there is evidence of a bullet hole, they would probably take a slab of wall board, not because they need to, but it would be a powerful piece to sway a jury. Maybe they saw a bullet hole and would have to take the piece of wall board/or other boards to recover a bullet. No mention if PK had any guns/silencers.

 

[Steelslady]

Berreth’s parents file wrongful death suit against fiancé


The wrongful death suit makes me think of succinylcholine that immobilizes an animal or person to a point where they know everything that’s going on but can’t react, respond or move to protect themselves in any way. If he had access to veterinary drugs or sources that could supply him with such....then I’m completely shattered for KBs family. Utterly.


“Succinylcholine is safely used each day during surgical procedures to paralyze patients. This drug causes total muscle relaxation. Unfortunately, when insufficient doses of sedatives are used, paralyzing agents like succinylcholine are also the drugs responsible for anesthesia awareness.

But exposure to succinylcholine and its terrifying effects has a sinister history. In the 1960s and 1970s, this drug was used as an experimental form of aversion therapy. In the ’60s, patients in Atascadero State Hospital—a maximum security clinic for mentally ill and criminally insane males that is still open—were chosen for therapy if they exhibited “acting out” behaviors. Succinylcholine was administered with the goal of initiating paralysis . . . and a brief (one-minute) period of apnea (breathing cessation). Patients remained completely conscious but totally helpless as doctors lectured them about their behavioral issues.”

That is a scary thought. I would much rather that he hit her over the head with an object and knocked her out completely, so that she wouldn't be aware of anything going on. This utterly frightens and disturbs me- I wouldn't want to know what she suffered through, if this scenario happened. Ugh!

Thanks, though, for sharing this information about succinylcholine- I have heard about this before and while it has advantages in terms of surgeries, it can be a sinister tool used to sedate a victim. Let's hope and pray he didn't do that to her!

 

[enelram]

‘Upon information and belief’ wow sounds like LE is sharing investigation findings with the B’s

I've read where in civil cases for wrongful death the plaintiff
has a right to obtain all discovery docs in the criminal charges.
So yes, they probably know it all.

 

[Seattle1]

I believe this is the same atty. that handled the Michael Jackson wrongful death suit.

His practice is based in Colorado Springs. However, he does claim to have represented high profile celebrities...
Perry R. Sanders Jr. | Founding Partner | Sanders Law Firm, CO

 

[GordianKnot]

Also @riolove77.

Thank you so much, PomMom!! I just went back and edited my thread to add the tag, I didn't realize rio was also on this thread...bonus! I've never been on a forum that had so many verified attys. We desperately need them here, as this case seems to be getting more complicated by the hour!

 

[Concernedmamaof3]

Sam Kraemer on Twitter
NEW DETAILS: Sanders Law Firm, the lawyers representing Berreth's parents, released a brief statement on the wrongful death lawsuit against Patrick Frazee. #KelseyBerreth #PatrickFrazee @KOAA

This makes it sound like they have evidence not yet released to the public.

 

[marchioness96]

At what point would someone be able to seek immunity for testimony as far as involvement? Can we assume KK is a POI or is she a witness. I wish we knew more about her involvement!

Longtime lurker, first time poster here...I'm not even sure I've quoted this properly...but I've been thinking something similar to this. We don't yet know at what point IN became involved. In other words, did she know from September on that PF was planning KB's murder, or did she come on board at the end in the disposal of KB's phone? Maybe someone has already asked this and I've missed it!

 

[SoVeryMe]

I've read where in civil cases for wrongful death the plaintiff
has a right to obtain all discovery docs in the criminal charges.
So yes, they probably know it all.

Perhaps this is the reason the Berreths have filed a civil case, to obtain discovery docs? Speculation on my behalf of course.

 

[Mom24]

Berreth’s parents file wrongful death suit against fiancé


The wrongful death suit makes me think of succinylcholine that immobilizes an animal or person to a point where they know everything that’s going on but can’t react, respond or move to protect themselves in any way. If he had access to veterinary drugs or sources that could supply him with such....then I’m completely shattered for KBs family. Utterly.


“Succinylcholine is safely used each day during surgical procedures to paralyze patients. This drug causes total muscle relaxation. Unfortunately, when insufficient doses of sedatives are used, paralyzing agents like succinylcholine are also the drugs responsible for anesthesia awareness.

But exposure to succinylcholine and its terrifying effects has a sinister history. In the 1960s and 1970s, this drug was used as an experimental form of aversion therapy. In the ’60s, patients in Atascadero State Hospital—a maximum security clinic for mentally ill and criminally insane males that is still open—were chosen for therapy if they exhibited “acting out” behaviors. Succinylcholine was administered with the goal of initiating paralysis . . . and a brief (one-minute) period of apnea (breathing cessation). Patients remained completely conscious but totally helpless as doctors lectured them about their behavioral issues.”

It's really really unlikely. It's very hard to get any drugs like that. Many people think hospitals are like the old days when staff could walk through the pharmaceutical area and get things. It's much more difficult these days. It does happen with things like demerol and pre-op drugs, but usually in places like wards where they do cardiac caths not in the ward KK worked in. Typically when people steal those meds they do so by drawing off the drug and then replacing it with water. So you'd have to have the ability to be alone in an area with no chance someone could walk through. Surgical wards are wide open, lots of staff walking through, families are sometimes present and the pre-op meds are sometimes handled by the anesthesiologist (I'm not sure how it works where KK works). Drugs are also locked up, even waste has to be witnessed by someone else and recorded. I'd really be surprised if she were able to attain something like that through her job.

 

[cluciano63]

I've read where in civil cases for wrongful death the plaintiff
has a right to obtain all discovery docs in the criminal charges.
So yes, they probably know it all.

I thought it was after the criminal trial had happened...

 

[bestill]

I hope the weight of this is working on PF and those that "know" or were involved. I admire the Berreth's so much. Kelsey's mom handled the media perfectly, said the right things and now they've turned it over to local, state and federal authorities and legal experts. One day I hope they will write a book on all that has been going on behind the scenes, it will be facinating!

 

[v0x]

 

[Yellow Rose]

It's really really unlikely. It's very hard to get any drugs like that. Many people think hospitals are like the old days when staff could walk through the pharmaceutical area and get things. It's much more difficult these days. It does happen with things like demerol and pre-op drugs, but usually in places like wards where they do cardiac caths not in the ward KK worked in. Typically when people steal those meds they do so by drawing off the drug and then replacing it with water. So you'd have to have the ability to be alone in an area with no chance someone could walk through. Surgical wards are wide open, lots of staff walking through, families are sometimes present and the pre-op meds are sometimes handled by the anesthesiologist (I'm not sure how it works where KK works). Drugs are also locked up, even waste has to be witnessed by someone else and recorded. I'd really be surprised if she were able to attain something like that through her job.

My eyes were actually on him with veterinary medicine but I left it open for speculation as to who had access.

 

[Steelslady]

It's really really unlikely. It's very hard to get any drugs like that. Many people think hospitals are like the old days when staff could walk through the pharmaceutical area and get things. It's much more difficult these days. It does happen with things like demerol and pre-op drugs, but usually in places like wards where they do cardiac caths not in the ward KK worked in. Typically when people steal those meds they do so by drawing off the drug and then replacing it with water. So you'd have to have the ability to be alone in an area with no chance someone could walk through. Surgical wards are wide open, lots of staff walking through, families are sometimes present and the pre-op meds are sometimes handled by the anesthesiologist (I'm not sure how it works where KK works). Drugs are also locked up, even waste has to be witnessed by someone else and recorded. I'd really be surprised if she were able to attain something like that through her job.

I wasn't thinking about IN, and I don't think Yellow Rose was either. This stuff is used by vets for animal surgeries.

 

[SoVeryMe]

Longtime lurker, first time poster here...I'm not even sure I've quoted this properly...but I've been thinking something similar to this. We don't yet know at what point IN became involved. In other words, did she know from September on that PF was planning KB's murder, or did she come on board at the end in the disposal of KB's phone? Maybe someone has already asked this and I've missed it!

Hello!!! So glad you joined in on the thread! You worded my thought much better than I did.

I would hope if someone was involved with the plan of murder they would be in custody. That is what is confusing to me, disposing of KB’s phone seems like it would be a criminal offense itself. How much did she know??? I’m sure we will find out....I’m just hung up on it.

 

[Steelslady]

My eyes were actually on him with veterinary medicine but I left it open for speculation as to who had access.

HA! I just answered for us both (I hope you don't mind!), that we were thinking veterinary medicine and not tying IN into this at all.