OH Pike County: 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested#41

[MittenScarpetta]

Wow. Great sleuthing work, MittenS. IIRC, Hannah Gilley was from Otway. Probably just a coincidence.

I know her visitation and funeral were held in Otway and she was buried there too.

 

[Betty P]

I am assuming you mean one of the W4 were holding babies while the others shot. IMO that's not realistic. It would be much mor sufficient to simply enter the room, point the gun at point blank range & pull the trigger.The 3 ppl that were in bed w/ babies all had headshots. I believe HG had a neck shot or 2? Which would mean the killers were relatively close. To enter the room and scoop the baby up w/ out disturbing/waking the victims would be very difficult, thus making it more difficult to get a fast and easy kill shot. FR & HG particularly. If the babies are between them or on the far side of the bed I cant see the killers reaching in to grab the baby & risk having a wrestling match. Much easier to simply enter, get close, & pull triggers. JMO

This has been my theory, too. From the beginning, when DeWine, et al talked about mothers being killed while sleeping with their infants next to them, it seemed clear they would have awakened and moved if someone picked up their baby. JMO, the killers had night vision goggles, laser sights or something to allow them to kill the parents without hitting the infant(s) sleeping next to them.

Obviously the killers were willing to take the risk of hitting the infants, though. The killers knew if anyone woke up, they would be in for shouting and a fight, giving others in the home time to grab a cell phone and dial 911.

At Frankie's they needed 4 people - two shooters on either side of the bed, someone to keep an eye on the little boy in the living room and a lookout and driver in the car.

JMO

 

[Betty P]

I know her visitation and funeral were held in Otway and she was buried there too.

Reading the obits while preparing the timeline the other day, it said she was from Otway. That's why the name jumped out when I read this.

Hannah Gilley, 20, laid to rest near her childhood home

 

[Johnny B Bad]

We are most likely going to have to agree to disagree on this issue; however, I will answer with this example.

I tell my buddy ‘if my wife divorces me I will seek revenge by smacking her’. That is speech.

I tell my wife ‘if you divorce me I will knock the **** out of you’ this is a threat. It is action, telling her, making her fearful, trying to modify her behavior with a proposed negative action.

Nazi Germany, N Korea, USSR punish people for speaking. England punished colonial Americans for talking about the king. Americans then revolted and said freedom of speech.

Don’t listen to me, listen to the state of Ohio. When prosecutors lay out charges, they file everything they think they could potentially argue successfully. Throw out everything and see what sticks, kinda. They did not ‘charge’ they mentioned it as a factor to encourage the judge to not grant bail, and/or to paint the defendants in a dangerous way.

Just remember, if it was law that you had to snitch on your friends everyone would be guilty of failing to report someone. This is the same concept as N Korea uses to punish an entire family, Kim robbed a store. Kim’s grandma didn’t report him, Kim’s children didn’t report him, heck Kim’s neighbors didn’t report him.... let’s jail everyone.

Again, if my argument doesn’t convince you then we are just going to have to agree to disagree. And that is fine, it is part of open and free speech.

You could be wrong in your arguments because a felony has been committed by act of murder if they are convicted

 

[JustaboyFromMS]

This has been my theory, too. From the beginning, when DeWine, et al talked about mothers being killed while sleeping with their infants next to them, it seemed clear they would have awakened and moved if someone picked up their baby. JMO, the killers had night vision goggles, laser sights or something to allow them to kill the parents without hitting the infant(s) sleeping next to them.

Obviously the killers were willing to take the risk of hitting the infants, though. The killers knew if anyone woke up, they would be in for shouting and a fight, giving others in the home time to grab a cell phone and dial 911.

At Frankie's they needed 4 people - two shooters on either side of the bed, someone to keep an eye on the little boy in the living room and a lookout and driver in the car.

JMO

There was a bug detector in the indictment as you know. I believe that its purpose is to detect cameras? If they went to that extent I am willing to bet my bank account that they had some type of signal jammer to block cell phone use. Simply turn it on & place it on the porch before entering. The most risky scene was DR because of the space between rooms. We know that DR was close to the entrance of her home. I believe HR room wouldn't have been located too far from that. The tricky part would be getting to CRJR as his room was in the addition in the back of the residence. I believe that's why his injuries were to the top of his skull. I believe he was hiding and they stood over him and fired down into the top of his skull. I disagree of FR crime scene, I believe the killers took care of business so fast the boy in the living room was irrelevant. By the time they popped them, they were probably back outside in 45-60 seconds. Even if the boy heard a commotion, he was probably disoriented upon waking. I believe all he probably saw/heard was the door shuting behind the W4.No case has ever interested me on the level of this case outside of OJ and Casey Anthony. I was 10 years old at the time of the OJ murders and could recite all the evidence and players to you as if I was 50. I lived in downtown Columbus in 2013/2014 and would commute to Pike County 2-3 times a week for work. That is what caught my attention when I first heard about the murders on TV. I am borderline obsessed w/ this case. During the 2 1/2 years between the crime and arrests I would find myself daydreaming about the night in question daily. I am 95% sure that we will get a conviction. Out of my own selfishness, I pray we get access to all the evidence once this case is concluded. I will probably print everything out and put it in 3 prong binders separated by categories. JMO

 

[MittenScarpetta]

There was a bug detector in the indictment as you know. I believe that its purpose is to detect cameras? If they went to that extent I am willing to bet my bank account that they had some type of signal jammer to block cell phone use. Simply turn it on & place it on the porch before entering. The most risky scene was DR because of the space between rooms. We know that DR was close to the entrance of her home. I believe HR room wouldn't have been located too far from that. The tricky part would be getting to CRJR as his room was in the addition in the back of the residence. I believe that's why his injuries were to the top of his skull. I believe he was hiding and they stood over him and fired down into the top of his skull. I disagree of FR crime scene, I believe the killers took care of business so fast the boy in the living room was irrelevant. By the time they popped them, they were probably back outside in 45-60 seconds. Even if the boy heard a commotion, he was probably disoriented upon waking. I believe all he probably saw/heard was the door shuting behind the W4.No case has ever interested me on the level of this case outside of OJ and Casey Anthony. I was 10 years old at the time of the OJ murders and could recite all the evidence and players to you as if I was 50. I lived in downtown Columbus in 2013/2014 and would commute to Pike County 2-3 times a week for work. That is what caught my attention when I first heard about the murders on TV. I am borderline obsessed w/ this case. During the 2 1/2 years between the crime and arrests I would find myself daydreaming about the night in question daily. I am 95% sure that we will get a conviction. Out of my own selfishness, I pray we get access to all the evidence once this case is concluded. I will probably print everything out and put it in 3 prong binders separated by categories. JMO

HMR’s room was in the addition part of the home off of the dining room and CRJR’s room was just off of the front door, to my knowledge. Dana’s room was off of the kitchen.

 

[OhioBlues]

The prosecution has some what of a difficult task ahead of them. I would imagine the grannies cases will move faster than the other 4. Since the prosecution is so big on the gag orders & overall silence, it will be hard for the public/media not to garner new info if the obstruction/perjury charges move forward first. JMO

Agreed. FW's attorney is going to get out as much info as possible.

He managed to say that FW believed in the W4's innocence and they should all hang in there. Maybe the other defendents won't hear about that but it makes me wonder.

 

[rsd1200]

Here is some good reading on what are crimes against public elected officials.
"
(A) No person, purposely and by force or by unlawful threat of harm to any person or property, shall retaliate against a public servant, a party official, or an attorney or witness who was involved in a civil or criminal action or proceeding because the public servant, party official, attorney, or witness discharged the duties of the public servant, party official, attorney, or witness.

(B) No person, purposely and by force or by unlawful threat of harm to any person or property, shall retaliate against the victim of a crime because the victim filed or prosecuted criminal charges.

(C) Whoever violates this section is guilty of retaliation, a felony of the third degree.

Effective Date: 09-03-1996."
Lawriter - ORC

This!!!!! Thank you Dudley.

Both good points, but FW wasn't charged for those (I could be missing a charge). She's charged with;

Obstructing Justice 2921.32(A)(5) Felony Fifth Degree ~ (A)No person, with purpose to hinder the discovery, apprehension, prosecution, conviction, or punishment of another for crime or to assist another to benefit from the commission of a crime, and no person, with purpose to hinder the discovery, apprehension, prosecution, adjudication as a delinquent child, or disposition of a child for an act that if committed by an adult would be a crime or to assist a child to benefit from the commission of an act that if committed by an adult would be a crime, shall do any of the following5)Communicate false information to any person;(carries up to a 12 month sentence),

and

Felony 3rd Degree Perjury 2921.11(A) ~No person shall knowingly make a false statement, or knowingly swear or affirm the truth of a false statement previously made, when either statement is material. Also, under this section, the falsification must be made while under oath or equivalent affirmation. Under this section, the false statement involved must be material, i.e., it must be such that it can affect the course or outcome of the proceeding in which it is made, regardless of its admissibility under the rules of evidence. (Carries up to five years in prison based on case, and a maximum of $2,500 in fines.)


Both of the above charges are said to be re; two bullet proof vests, found in G4's room, at FW's home, in May, 2017, is that correct?

 

[Betty P]

There was a bug detector in the indictment as you know. I believe that its purpose is to detect cameras? If they went to that extent I am willing to bet my bank account that they had some type of signal jammer to block cell phone use. Simply turn it on & place it on the porch before entering. The most risky scene was DR because of the space between rooms. We know that DR was close to the entrance of her home. I believe HR room wouldn't have been located too far from that. The tricky part would be getting to CRJR as his room was in the addition in the back of the residence. I believe that's why his injuries were to the top of his skull. I believe he was hiding and they stood over him and fired down into the top of his skull. I disagree of FR crime scene, I believe the killers took care of business so fast the boy in the living room was irrelevant. By the time they popped them, they were probably back outside in 45-60 seconds. Even if the boy heard a commotion, he was probably disoriented upon waking. I believe all he probably saw/heard was the door shuting behind the W4.No case has ever interested me on the level of this case outside of OJ and Casey Anthony. I was 10 years old at the time of the OJ murders and could recite all the evidence and players to you as if I was 50. I lived in downtown Columbus in 2013/2014 and would commute to Pike County 2-3 times a week for work. That is what caught my attention when I first heard about the murders on TV. I am borderline obsessed w/ this case. During the 2 1/2 years between the crime and arrests I would find myself daydreaming about the night in question daily. I am 95% sure that we will get a conviction. Out of my own selfishness, I pray we get access to all the evidence once this case is concluded. I will probably print everything out and put it in 3 prong binders separated by categories. JMO

Sounds like you're very thorough and organized! Feel free to share what resources you can in our Media & Timelines thread, if it's not too much trouble. If not, that's ok, too.

Media & Timeline NO DISCUSSION - Pike Co, OH 8 Family Members Murdered

Yeah, hearing about the high tech gadgets the W's purchased confirmed many of our theories here that the killers used them to get in and out of the dark trailers so quickly, without waking most victims until the last minute. We speculated about night vision goggles, lasers, etc. Agree, poor Chris Jr. was probably one of the few who heard them killing his mom and sister before getting to him. He was the only one (besides his dad) who tried to hide. Just awful.

We've also wondered how the killers dealt with the hearing loss from firing so many shots indoors in a relatively short period of time.

 

[Betty P]

Agreed. FW's attorney is going to get out as much info as possible.

He managed to say that FW believed in the W4's innocence and they should all hang in there. Maybe the other defendents won't hear about that but it makes me wonder.

She's using every oppo to preach family unity. Some of us have guessed that's the message RW is trying to convey as she shows up at every hearing, tries to make eye contact, etc. FW's attorney is slippery. The judge may need to rein him in a little with his interruptions and rule breaking.

 

[JustaboyFromMS]

Sounds like you're very thorough and organized! Feel free to share what resources you can in our Media & Timelines thread, if it's not too much trouble. If not, that's ok, too.

Media & Timeline NO DISCUSSION - Pike Co, OH 8 Family Members Murdered

Yeah, hearing about the high tech gadgets the W's purchased confirmed many of our theories here that the killers used them to get in and out of the dark trailers so quickly, without waking most victims until the last minute. We speculated about night vision goggles, lasers, etc. Agree, poor Chris Jr. was probably one of the few who heard them killing his mom and sister before getting to him. He was the only one (besides his dad) who tried to hide. Just awful.

We've also wondered how the killers dealt with the hearing loss from firing so many shots indoors in a relatively short period of time.

Thanks, I will def check it out. As far as NVG, I dont believe they used them. You can add a strobe light/flash light to a pistol. It would provide vision for the shooters and disorientate the victims. I believe NVG would be more of a liability than a help. JMO

 

[Betty P]

Both good points, but FW wasn't charged for those (I could be missing a charge). She's charged with;

Obstructing Justice 2921.32(A)(5) Felony Fifth Degree ~ (A)No person, with purpose to hinder the discovery, apprehension, prosecution, conviction, or punishment of another for crime or to assist another to benefit from the commission of a crime, and no person, with purpose to hinder the discovery, apprehension, prosecution, adjudication as a delinquent child, or disposition of a child for an act that if committed by an adult would be a crime or to assist a child to benefit from the commission of an act that if committed by an adult would be a crime, shall do any of the following5)Communicate false information to any person;(carries up to a 12 month sentence),

and

Felony 3rd Degree Perjury 2921.11(A) ~No person shall knowingly make a false statement, or knowingly swear or affirm the truth of a false statement previously made, when either statement is material. Also, under this section, the falsification must be made while under oath or equivalent affirmation. Under this section, the false statement involved must be material, i.e., it must be such that it can affect the course or outcome of the proceeding in which it is made, regardless of its admissibility under the rules of evidence. (Carries up to five years in prison based on case, and a maximum of $2,500 in fines.)


Both of the above charges are said to be re; two bullet proof vests, found in G4's room, at FW's home, in May, 2017, is that correct?

We don't know the prosecutor's strategies, but they may be leaving these other potential charges hanging out there as a bargaining tool or in reserve. Bringing up the evidence of those activities in court also helps them convey how dangerous these people are and how much planning they did before and after the murders. That kind of information (planning to kill LE, escape from jail, etc.) helps jurors understand their viciousness, lack of remorse, etc.

 

[rsd1200]

Her two grandsons are not considered family members?

If her Amazon account was used to buy items used to commit crimes, she could be innocent of even knowing they were purchased?
Therefore innocent of wrongdoing? Not sure what you are saying.

I was speaking to FW. I could be wrong, maybe she did raise her grandchildren. I wasn't going to lay her grandsons choices at her feet. I also just love how fingers always get pointed at the mothers, no matter if their child is 5, 25, or 45. I've zero to do with my adult child's accomplishments, nor their failures, nor any bad decisions they may make down the road.

 

[Betty P]

Thanks, I will def check it out. As far as NVG, I dont believe they used them. You can add a strobe light/flash light to a pistol. It would provide vision for the shooters and disorientate the victims. I believe NVG would be more of a liability than a help. JMO

I realize they planned and prepared carefully, but they were also lucky that night. Lucky with the dogs, lucky no one (besides CR1) saw them coming, lucky no one overheard the noise and called 911, lucky they didn't trip over something and awaken more victims, etc.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Agreed. FW's attorney is going to get out as much info as possible.

He managed to say that FW believed in the W4's innocence and they should all hang in there. Maybe the other defendents won't hear about that but it makes me wonder.

I think Fred is the one trying to get messages to the W4 since her attorney said he hoped this was all over soon so she could continue writing to her relatives that are incarcerated.

JMO

 

[rsd1200]

True, you have a point. But it seems unlikely they prosecutors would have brought perjury and obstruction of justice charges against her unless they could prove FW knew of such a scenario. Safe to assume they did their homework. JMO

It's tempting to speculate about a lot of this and there's no way to avoid it, but we'll have to be patient and wait for the details to emerge. For now, all the defendants are presumed innocent until proven guilty and the Rhodens and Hannah Gilley are all still dead.

BBM
Yeah, I'm well aware, Betty. Thanks for the reminder though. My memory isn't that bad. I'm not THAT old.

 

[rsd1200]

Well, apparently they thought they could kill eight people and not get caught. So, thinking they could kill elected officials might not have been a stretch for them...

You have a point. Delusions of grandeur, I suppose.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Both good points, but FW wasn't charged for those (I could be missing a charge). She's charged with;

Obstructing Justice 2921.32(A)(5) Felony Fifth Degree ~ (A)No person, with purpose to hinder the discovery, apprehension, prosecution, conviction, or punishment of another for crime or to assist another to benefit from the commission of a crime, and no person, with purpose to hinder the discovery, apprehension, prosecution, adjudication as a delinquent child, or disposition of a child for an act that if committed by an adult would be a crime or to assist a child to benefit from the commission of an act that if committed by an adult would be a crime, shall do any of the following5)Communicate false information to any person;(carries up to a 12 month sentence),

and

Felony 3rd Degree Perjury 2921.11(A) ~No person shall knowingly make a false statement, or knowingly swear or affirm the truth of a false statement previously made, when either statement is material. Also, under this section, the falsification must be made while under oath or equivalent affirmation. Under this section, the false statement involved must be material, i.e., it must be such that it can affect the course or outcome of the proceeding in which it is made, regardless of its admissibility under the rules of evidence. (Carries up to five years in prison based on case, and a maximum of $2,500 in fines.)


Both of the above charges are said to be re; two bullet proof vests, found in G4's room, at FW's home, in May, 2017, is that correct?

I think so. Chip H on Life Below Zero was convicted of perjury for lying on a protective order and had to serve 18 months in jail and got 3 years probation after that. That would be 4 1/2 years total for a man with no prior criminal record and he is a star on a popular TV show.

I hope Fred gets her 5 years and has to serve most of it.

JMO

 

[Betty P]

I was speaking to FW. I could be wrong, maybe she did raise her grandchildren. I wasn't going to lay her grandsons choices at her feet. I also just love how fingers always get pointed at the mothers, no matter if their child is 5, 25, or 45. I've zero to do with my adult child's accomplishments, nor their failures, nor any bad decisions they may make down the road.

That's understandable. I usually have sympathy for parents and grandparents of dangerous criminals, too. What they do in their adult lives is usually beyond their parents' control.

Fredericka is different, JMO. By many accounts, she's a powerful, domineering woman who exercised a lot of control over her own family, her employees, her tenants, her congregation and many others. I doubt there were many people who ever said "no" to her. I think she used her land and wealth as a means to control her family. So, I'm looking at her differently. She wasn't the kind of grandma who stayed in the kitchen baking cookies.

Matriarch of Wagner family accused in Pike County massacre spent decades building wealth

To many, she’s the wealthy landowner who worked with her husband acquiring hundreds of acres to build a renowned horse-breeding empire atop a hill largely out of sight here.

To those who tried to buy land from her, she’s a money-hungry opportunist who takes advantage of low-income families.

To her lawyer, she’s a God-fearing, tax-paying Pike County business owner who is being wrongly accused in helping her family plot a cover-up of one of the state’s most heinous crimes.

Some things are undisputed: She is the fiercely protective matriarch of the family who stands accused in the calculated, cold-blooded killings of eight members of the Rhoden family in April 2016.

By both wealth and stature, she is an outlier in her own county.

DeWine called it an "obsession" with custody and controlling children.

 

[rsd1200]

The point I tried to make, and apparently failed, is, those chickens apparently have nothing to do with the murders, so why are they brought up, over, and over? Are we going to discuss bed bugs again, too? Should the pig found in the one shed be discussed, too? I think we need to stick to discussing the case of the murders until chickens, bed bugs, or whatever are brought up in court or as evidence...

I didn't bring it up, I don't know why it gets brought up, but it was in MSM, so it's not against t.o.s. I just find it odd that folks think they were pets. At this point I'm ready to make an add-on app to hide posts with "roosters", "*advertiser censored*", and/or "bed bugs", in the contents.