Found Alive WI - Jayme Closs, 13, Barron, missing after parents found shot, 15 Oct 2018 *Arrest* #36

[Inthedetails]

You very well may be right. It does seem a very over the top obsession.

For someone who didn't complete boot camp, leaves jobs after one day working, doesn't seem to keep up with social ties....he managed to pull off a major crime without detection and hid a child for months.

So strange....where did he get the "gumption" so suddenly be competent and stick with a plan? The only thing I can think of is, indeed, obsession.

jmo

 

[BlinkOfAnI]

I dunno. I said from the beginning Jayme was the target. Given that she was the only one to leave alive. Was he so obsessed he felt her parents had to die? Not typical but has happened. I'm so happy she was found and thankful he didn't find her after she escaped. I think it would be a very different outcome.

Agree she was the target and considering he could have taken her easily in other ways you may be right about feeling the parents had to die. Or he had been watching and planning for some time and the anticipation boiled over. JMO

 

[SeekingJana]

This maybe a stupid question but when LE won't comment on the conditions Jayme was kept in and when the sheriff said he would not release any details that would cause Jayme stress... by not commenting is he basically saying the conditions were horrendous and she was harmed ? If she wasn't harmed or bound etc, why wouldn't he just say so and end any speculation ? Or is the prosecution hoping the JP will plead guilty to murder and kidnapping and anything else will never have to be made public and Jiayme decides if the public ever knows what she endured ?

RSBM.

The sheriff is being cautious with a 13 year old child, IMO. Also, it would be a bit foolhardy to keep on talking with the suspect in custody and awaiting criminal proceedings.

We do not know what Jayme will choose to do. As others have said, it could be a long time before this all goes to trial. Jayme's life and future will go forward with lots of love and support, and that's what matters most to me.

I do not want to know about the suspect. ( It is triggering for me. Could not watch 48 hours and doubt I can watch any of it in the future. ES was the same way. I have problems with the way former victimized survivors are more or less " displayed" for profits, or that's my take on it as a very private person about what happened to me in my everyday life for many years).

 

[Bravo]

Yes Jayme has a road ahead nobody wants to ever travel. We cant forget that many Children who go thru abduction and the horror return to the loving arms of their Parents. Jayme doesn't have that. It breaks my heart what she has ahead of her. She can over come but it will be a very, very tough road. I wish her well.

 

[human]

In no particular order:

- brother moved out of state several years ago. See Fox report about that. (I’ll try and find & link it again). There is nothing to show so far that brother has been anywhere near the property/home or lived there recently.

- the reports of people in & out of/visiting the house while JC was held there are not yet substantiated by LE (although I do believe there were some visitors) and there were very few full-time neighbours around to ‘clock’ activity around the house.

If one looks at the pictures (aerial views only at the moment) of the property, I can see how JC could have been concealed or sequestrated there without any visitors being aware.

The neighbourhood - for want of a better word - is mostly made up of vacation/seasonal properties. Some of which may be rented out (seasonally), IMO. Various vehicles going in and out may not have raised red flags to locals.

- I’m not sure that it matters, in the big picture, who was receiving and/or paying utility bills. According to Sheriff’s statement in yesterday’s 4pm press conference, there was electricity & water in the property.

To me it matters. He has no job and has not.

Has he been doing burglaries? He doesn’t mind driving a ways.

He thinks he is so smart. I think he did practice crimes. Lime what? Don’t know but burglary is associated with sexual assault.

He was out of school for three years doing exactly what?

 

[bellyup]

Elizabeth Smart had wise words: that the best way to move forward is to let go, and that she cannot return to the life she had. She needs to define and move towards her new normal.

I think moving toward a new normal is wise words.

The "let go" part? Ugh. As someone who has worked in victim advocacy I seriously shudder at that and think it's horrible advice. Most people who suffer trauma would do anything to "let go" of the horror their minds re-visit upon them.

 

[kkdj]

For someone who didn't complete boot camp, leaves jobs after one day working, doesn't seem to keep up with social ties....he managed to pull off a major crime without detection and hid a child for months.

So strange....where did he get the "gumption" so suddenly be competent and stick with a plan? The only thing I can think of is, indeed, obsession.

jmo

I think he was still in the puppy love phase (makes me sick to type it) with it only being 3 months. As time would move forward he may have grown tired of her and wanted that new phase feeling again. That's when I think her life might be in danger as well as his next victim's family.
This guy is one sick dude! imo

 

[Lillymac]

Does anyone else think that a lot of this has to be tremendously tiring and re-traumatizing for Jayme?

I really hope that the photos and interviews and stuff stop. Leave them alone. Let them hunker down with trained professionals and Jayme and give her a gentle life balance without a bunch of circus to try and heal.

Sorry, it frustrates me to no end that a child goes from a horrific trauma to being traumatized in a new way. And while I know people are well intentioned all of the messages of "She's so strong" or anything that starts with "She will/should..." don't really give her any chance to be weak or find healing in her own way. They put pressure on a child who has been through A LOT.

There should be no expectations at all put on this poor girl or her family at this point. Like. None at all. Support doesn't have to be "You're so strong, you'll heal, you have an awesome family and you'll do great things like Elizabeth Smart and we love you."

Can you imagine what she's been through and seeing "Welcome Home!" plastered everywhere? She. Didn't. Come. Home. And she's aware of that.

Support can be "We're standing with you and will support you in whatever ways you need for however long you need. There's nothing that is right or wrong right now. We are just here for you."

I'm going to defer those things to her family. They aren't stupid people and they certainly have Jayme as their first priority. I understand your concern, but at this early stage of everyone's jubilation I think it's fine.

 

[gitana1]

A victim cannot be compelled to testify. You said it yourself.

I think the confusion some have lies in "witness" (who can be forced to testify) and "victims" whom are protected by the Victims Rights Act.

It may mean there is no case (assuming that victim testimony is all prosecutors have against the person). It's the main reason domestic violence cases are dropped left and right. You can't force a victim to testify and without that testimony, there's often no case.

That said, a lot of lawyers, law enforcement, courts will try to force it or try to obtain testimony through any means possible (ie; writing, video, etc).

Which is ALSO why a strong and knowledgeable victims advocate is extremely important.

But with respect, that's not what the conversation is about. The initial question was whether the victim could testify without being cross-examined. I said no. You replied, essentially, that that's untrue because a victim is not the accuser and cannot be forced to testify.

One part of what you stated is, frankly, false. The victim IS the accuser if they are testifying (each witness agains them is) and thus the defendant must be allowed to cross examine them.

The second part of what you stated is true but not relevant to the issue, which is whether a victim can testify without being cross examined.

I've reproduced the chain below:

I was thinking of video as well, plus restrictions from the judge on how far she can be cross-examined, if at all.

I too hope he pleads. I bet he does, though I don't know what the prosecutors can offer him to entice him to do so. He seems awkward, shy and reclusive, maybe those traits alone will cause him to not want to be the center of attention in a courtroom.

They can't refuse to allow her to be cross examined. We have a constitutional right to face our accusers and question them. But some courts allow certain protections. And a defense counsel would be insane to upset a child victim/witness on the stand.

The "accuser" in this case is the state prosecutor.
You have a constitutional right to face the state that is accusing you.
You DO NOT have the constitutional right to face your victim and you cannot force a victim to testify.

That's incorrect.

The Sixth Amendment Confrontation Clause states:

" In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to be confronted with the witnesses against him."

And that means they get to cross examine them.

You can force a victim to testify but if they do, the defendant gets to cross them. No witness is allowed to testify without the defendant being able to cross examine. That's the constitution.

The 6th Amendment's Confrontation Clause - FindLaw

And while a victim can't be compelled to testify, without victim testimony in most cases that means there's no case.

 

[Caylee Advocate]

Yet the biggest question remains.. why kill the parents? He sure went to alot of unnecessary risk to abduct Jayme... WHY? Was it a fantasy of his to go to this extreme? Color me confused, but I just don't get it.

 

[Irmese]

Thank you for doing that

YVW.

 

[Bravo]

I think moving toward a new normal is wise words.

The "let go" part? Ugh. As someone who has worked in victim advocacy I seriously shudder at that and think it's horrible advice. Most people who suffer trauma would do anything to "let go" of the horror their minds re-visit upon them.

I think the let go is letting go of the person you were before the crime and moving on to accepting to the person you are to become.

 

[Irmese]

Yet the biggest question remains.. why kill the parents? He sure went to alot of unnecessary risk to abduct Jayme... WHY? Was it a fantasy of his to go to this extreme? Color me confused, but I just don't get it.

In some interview I saw, the Sheriff said they were a barrier. LE is not giving any indication JP is talking, though, so I think they haven't gotten any reason from him. MOO.

 

[TCIntriguedIN30]

I have a feeling Patterson has had a history of mental problems and his family was well aware of it. That fits to me. jmo
I don't think they had any idea that it was he who committed these crimes tho. jmo

One thing that really bugs me is that out of mom and brothers FB pages...The picture u are seeing everywhere is the only one anywhere. There is nothing more recent than that one. I guess they could have their fb restricted but it just makes me wonder what his actual relationship with his family was like.

 

[Inthedetails]

I'm going to defer those things to her family. They aren't stupid people and they certainly have Jayme as their first priority. I understand your concern, but at this early stage of everyone's jubilation I think it's fine.

Me too. I think everyone is bubbling over with joy!

I also am hoping that the family is sharing the joy in the hopes it "feeds" the media something - toss 'em some bones of photos and interviews and then they will go away to the next story, rather than lurk around hoping to get the scoop.

Everyone got a scoop....so they can leave soon, ykwim?

jmo

 

[BlinkOfAnI]

Does anyone else think that a lot of this has to be tremendously tiring and re-traumatizing for Jayme?

I really hope that the photos and interviews and stuff stop. Leave them alone. Let them hunker down with trained professionals and Jayme and give her a gentle life balance without a bunch of circus to try and heal.

Sorry, it frustrates me to no end that a child goes from a horrific trauma to being traumatized in a new way. And while I know people are well intentioned all of the messages of "She's so strong" or anything that starts with "She will/should..." don't really give her any chance to be weak or find healing in her own way. They put pressure on a child who has been through A LOT.

There should be no expectations at all put on this poor girl or her family at this point. Like. None at all. Support doesn't have to be "You're so strong, you'll heal, you have an awesome family and you'll do great things like Elizabeth Smart and we love you."

Can you imagine what she's been through and seeing "Welcome Home!" plastered everywhere? She. Didn't. Come. Home. And she's aware of that.

Support can be "We're standing with you and will support you in whatever ways you need for however long you need. There's nothing that is right or wrong right now. We are just here for you."

I do get your point about "a chance to be weak". It's possible to get so caught up in the strength people say you have that you deny yourself the ability to be weak but that's something that happens over time. Been there myself. That said I think we have to trust in the decisions Jayme's family is making. They love her and know her better than any of us and seem an amazing support for her.

 

[Karinna]

Yet the biggest question remains.. why kill the parents? He sure went to alot of unnecessary risk to abduct Jayme... WHY? Was it a fantasy of his to go to this extreme? Color me confused, but I just don't get it.

I agree, considering none of these people knew of each other Why Jayme's family?

 

[Pretty Go Pale]

I think the let go is letting go of the person you were before the crime and moving on to accepting to the person you are to become.

I wouldn't deign to opine unless I was such a victim, and you may be, so I gently breaststroke to the shallows.

 

[SeekingJana]

Does anyone else think that a lot of this has to be tremendously tiring and re-traumatizing for Jayme?

From one who knows what abduction, separation from every part of life ever known, and constant torture and fear of death feels like, yes, it has a large potential for adding to the trauma already present, whether she absolutely wanted to go on national TV or not today.

Self- doubt ( Did I do all I could?) and sometimes, residual fear, and the many flashbacks to the traumas do cause survivors to re-think allowing their face and name to be put on national media after they are safe.

I went to extraordinary lengths to have the person who stalked, abducted and tortured me tried in what I can only describe as a " special court of law" for MY privacy's sake. He thought it would " benefit" him, but nope, backfired like a 65 Chevy Nova. His career history made the venue possible.

The state attorney general presided over the prosecution and was the person who slightly prepared me for what was to come, and then questioned me, the major witness, and he also questioned the loser defendant for hours every day.

In any other person's circumstances, I'd call it " transcendent", the way the AG and I worked together in sync. I was scared and angry, but I set all those emotions aside and I apparently did well because he ( the state AG at the time) told me I was the best witness he'd ever had in all his law career. That's when I broke down, literally. He wrapped his arms around me and somehow got me to a quiet place.

OMG, I am thinking of parts I haven't thought of in many years. I hope Jayme doesn't have to go through this. I hope with all my heart it can be prevented for her memories. You NEVER forget any of it, but being in court and having a prominent defense attorney question MY motives was soul- crushing and dehumanizing until I took a moment and realized what he and the creep who tried to kill me were doing.

I believe I did outsmart him because I never acknowledged any " good" in him at all.
He had nurses as character witnesses who really effed up. One got on the stand, glared at me, broke down into tears, and said " He bought me Christmas presents for several years. He was more like a husband to me than my own husband".
I smiled despite myself at her huge gaffe.
I'm going to close this post while I'm still smiling.
Love and good night to you all.

@Tricia, thank you for taking time out to be with us here tonight. (( Hugs)))!

 

[human]

Would a 13 yr old be able to celebrate her birthday at a casino? In Cali, you need to be 18 to go to the Indian Casinos. And 21 for the ones giving out liquor. A 13 yr old wouldn't be allowed.

They are allowed at rhe hotel. Lots of people have pool parties for their kids at casino hotels