Found Alive WI - Jayme Closs, 13, Barron, missing after parents found shot, 15 Oct 2018 *Arrest* #39

[cherrymeg]

I'm caught up! Ok I have some responses saved up. Most are from the last thread so sorry I don't have proper quotes.

"Threw a license plate in their garbage can, did he stop to take it off/unscrew it? "
In HIS garbage can.

"Taurus and one distinction that they may know the car has is a black thing sticking out from its front grill"
That's referring to the plastic license plate bracket, that did not have a plate.

"The sentiment that "there's nothing families can do" isn't true and unfortunately leads to many people believing that there is nothing they can do so they do nothing. "
<modsnipped>

This kind of reminds me of Sylvia Seegrist who shot up the Springfield Mall in PA. This was in 1985. I think if I remember correctly her parents begged to get her help once she was an adult. She had problems as a kid and had been molested. She had schizophrenia and made comments about shooting people. She was into guns. A Kmart employee refused to sell her a gun because she scared them. I think she went to mental hospitals and was released as not a danger to herself or others. I think that case changed some rules in PA. Threats seem to be taken more seriously since 9/11 anyway.

<modsnipped> Being an odd duck isn't a crime. If you can get someone to agree to see a doctor willingly and keep up with it that is sometimes the best option. If a person seems like they are dangerous and can't admit they have issues that's when it gets complicated and scary. You hope they commit a petty crime pefore they kidnap a girl.

 

[Sjm_qc]

Haven’t caught up on all posts, but I’m wondering....can JP still plead guilty? He’s very open about everything he’s done, so I was really hoping he’d just own it.

He has not yet entered a plea. We haven’t got to that stage yet.

 

[Lorelei1]

And then my theory on the Taurus. I've mentioned some other logical possibilities before, just trying to rule things out, but this is what I think.

First I think they did think the Taurus could be the bad guy, when they reviewed the cams. But they didn't have much info about it. An older burgundy Taurus or something similar is a pretty vague description, and they didn't have a plate to go by. They were trying to get better views from cams, and possibly from the parties in the "vehicles of interest." Meanwhile though, they had profiles of the bad guy from the FBI. I expect the profiles included that he thought he was smarter than LE. Not even mentioning the Taurus, would reinforce that he'd outsmarted them. They knew he'd be watching the coverage. So by looking clueless, and getting some of the facts wrong, the profilers would be telling them, he'd be smug with delight. Maybe a lot of the things they said were designed to tell him "we don't have a clue!" Such as searching west, when he drove east. Naming other cars, then saying they're not sure about the cars afterall. Why would they do that? Maybe the profile said, that if he thought they were on to him he'd just kill her. And that Jayme's best chance of being alive at the outcome was if he let his guard down and she had the opportunity to escape. Maybe that's why the weird messages in the press conference with the aunts & Molly. They figured he was watching, and maybe Jayme had a chance to watch too. In case she did, telling her, come home. Get away! They were right. If they had come busting down his door, would Jayme have survived? It's been frustrating as heck for us trying to figure stuff out with no information, but what if that no information was carefully calculated not for us, but for the bad guy? JMO

And then my theory on the Taurus. I've mentioned some other logical possibilities before, just trying to rule things out, but this is what I think.

First I think they did think the Taurus could be the bad guy, when they reviewed the cams. But they didn't have much info about it. An older burgundy Taurus or something similar is a pretty vague description, and they didn't have a plate to go by. They were trying to get better views from cams, and possibly from the parties in the "vehicles of interest." Meanwhile though, they had profiles of the bad guy from the FBI. I expect the profiles included that he thought he was smarter than LE. Not even mentioning the Taurus, would reinforce that he'd outsmarted them. They knew he'd be watching the coverage. So by looking clueless, and getting some of the facts wrong, the profilers would be telling them, he'd be smug with delight. Maybe a lot of the things they said were designed to tell him "we don't have a clue!" Such as searching west, when he drove east. Naming other cars, then saying they're not sure about the cars afterall. Why would they do that? Maybe the profile said, that if he thought they were on to him he'd just kill her. And that Jayme's best chance of being alive at the outcome was if he let his guard down and she had the opportunity to escape. Maybe that's why the weird messages in the press conference with the aunts & Molly. They figured he was watching, and maybe Jayme had a chance to watch too. In case she did, telling her, come home. Get away! They were right. If they had come busting down his door, would Jayme have survived? It's been frustrating as heck for us trying to figure stuff out with no information, but what if that no information was carefully calculated not for us, but for the bad guy? JMO

I was wondering if there was tv reception or internet at JPs cabin. Did I read before that JC hadn’t seen any news? Maybe he would watch the news while she was under the bed and a loud radio was playing.

 

[Karinna]

When I initially read that quote, i stopped and then re-read it again and the entire article and assumed they meant “didn’t SEE Jayme.” (because she was hidden underneath the bed)

Thanks for clarifying because i wasn't really sure what it all meant.

 

[Karinna]

This kind of reminds me of Sylvia Seegrist who shot up the Springfield Mall in PA. This was in 1985. I think if I remember correctly her parents begged to get her help once she was an adult. She had problems as a kid and had been molested. She had schizophrenia and made comments about shooting people. She was into guns. A Kmart employee refused to sell her a gun because she scared them. I think she went to mental hospitals and was released as not a danger to herself or others. I think that case changed some rules in PA. Threats seem to be taken more seriously since 9/11 anyway.

<modsnipped> Being an odd duck isn't a crime. If you can get someone to agree to see a doctor willingly and keep up with it that is sometimes the best option. If a person seems like they are dangerous and can't admit they have issues that's when it gets complicated and scary. You hope they commit a petty crime pefore they kidnap a girl.

Yeah some people are just an accident waiting to happen or a ticking time bomb waiting to go off and sometimes there are no signs until it's too late unfortunately.
Even if there are signs something isn't right sometimes we just can't know until it escalates into something much more serious.

 

[Sjm_qc]

Good morning WS friends.

Bringing forward the criminal complaint and DAs’ press conference after the initial hearing. They answer some (not all) questions and speculation which keeps coming up.
http://media.graytvinc.com/documents/jayme+closs+complaint.pdf
Also a reminder that there is a lot more information than is in the criminal complaint that hasn’t been released.

And an aside: I feel very sorry for JP’s family members, especially his father - can you imagine what he’s going through knowing that he was in that house while JC was captive there? Not to mention having to think about what his son has done?

 

[Sjm_qc]

O/T Can anyone tell me how to start a new thread?

Go to the appropriate forum, click on “start new thread”. In some forums only mods/admin can start new threads.

 

[Sjm_qc]

I was wondering if there was tv reception or internet at JPs cabin. Did I read before that JC hadn’t seen any news? Maybe he would watch the news while she was under the bed and a loud radio was playing.

See the CC, bottom of page 11: JP watched the news and social media (that’s where he learned the names of 2 of his victims). No mention of whether JC saw any tv etc reports.
http://media.graytvinc.com/documents/jayme+closs+complaint.pdf

 

[bellyup]

I doubt anybody is an expert of Stockholm Syndrome because it is incredibly rare. Stockholm Syndrome didn't apply to Elizabeth Smart and it doesn't apply here. I'm not sure why some want to insist it was even a possibility. To do so is very unfair to these child victims who were cruelly traumatized.
JMO

"I never had Stockholm syndrome,'' she says in the movie. "Just because I physically stopped resisting, doesn't mean I hated it any less. I wasn't sympathetic towards them. I despised them."

Elizabeth Smart on the one question that won’t go away: ‘Why didn’t you run?’

I’m not sure where you are getting that Stockholm Syndrome is incredibly rare or that it’s unfair to victims.

It’s a very real survival technique. Way earlier in Jaymes thread I talked about the fact that there are the known physiological responses “ fight and flight”. However there are two lesser known responses and those are “freeze and fawn.”

It’s believed about 8% of people react to captive trauma with what has been called “Stockholm syndrome”. Which can be relabeled as fawning or trauma bonding which occurs with a VERY high frequency in any prolonged abuse situation (not just captivity) . It’s where victims develop a psychological alliance with their captor as a survival strategy.

There’s nothing wrong with this. I know Elizabeth Smart really hated the term but as someone who has been held captive by a diagnosed sociopath ; it’s exactly what I did and what most end up doing when the other surivival methods aren’t working. Going along with what he wanted, praising his intelligence, agreeing to his suggestions, etc. I also vehemently hated him the entire time. Fawn response isn’t exclusive of hating your captor and wanting out.

I also did not take presented opportunities to flea. Trust me, you beat yourself up over that part or others do it for you. This survival response also doesn’t take any degree of time. Especially if your brain has already dveloped patterns of “fawn” being a default response from other traumas in your life.

(See also; Why domestic violence victims often don’t “just leave”. The reason is often a form of trauma bonding.)

 

[mtnlites]

I’m not sure where you are getting that Stockholm Syndrome is incredibly rare or that it’s unfair to victims.

It’s a very real survival technique. Way earlier in Jaymes thread I talked about the fact that there are the known physiological responses “ fight and flight”. However there are two lesser known responses and those are “freeze and fawn.”

It’s believed about 8% of people react to captive trauma with what has been called “Stockholm syndrome”. Which can be relabeled as fawning or trauma bonding which occurs with a VERY high frequency in any prolonged abuse situation (not just captivity) . It’s where victims develop a psychological alliance with their captor as a survival strategy.

There’s nothing wrong with this. I know Elizabeth Smart really hated the term but as someone who has been held captive by a diagnosed sociopath ; it’s exactly what I did and what most end up doing when the other surivival methods aren’t working. Going along with what he wanted, praising his intelligence, agreeing to his suggestions, etc. I also vehemently hated him the entire time. Fawn response isn’t exclusive of hating your captor and wanting out.

I also did not take presented opportunities to flea. Trust me, you beat yourself up over that part or others do it for you. This survival response also doesn’t take any degree of time. Especially if your brain has already dveloped patterns of “fawn” being a default response from other traumas in your life.

Yes, thank you. (And I am sorry for what you went through.) It can feel like people apply a negative connotation to Stockholm Syndrome when, in reality, it's a survival technique that victims sometimes unwitting adapt due to the trauma they're undergoing. It doesn't say anything bad about the victim or imply that they've done anything wrong.

 

[angelina1]

Um, yeah.....great service Barron Co. Sheriff's.....you screwed up the night of the murder, did absolutely nothing to break the case, didn't even arrest the suspect....and then decide "let's drive 100 MPH for 30-40 miles and risk killing someone for no real reason since the suspect had been caught already".

I mean, seriously, how stupid are the people in this county?

Was he really caught by then?

 

[mtnlites]

But how? I mean there are hundreds of thousands of odd loners in the US and very very few erupt into this kind of deranged evil. What were they supposed to understand or do about him.

There's many more out of control teens and young adults who have uncontrollable rage issues, constant criminal activity, clear preoccupation with violence, that people worry about. These loners manage to stay under the radar and not disclose any dark thoughts. But most of these alienated loners are pretty benign.

It's much easier to put the puzzle together when one has all the pieces. Many of the things that JP did as a younger person don't necessarily raise red flags on their own. (The animal thing is pretty troubling, for instance, but I stayed to the side and didn't participate in my 26-person class picture, either.) Out of context, many of the things that JP did over the years could have non-nefarious explanations. However, when you piece them all together, they DO paint a much different, unsettling, kind of picture.

I think this is where I start getting antsy. There's nothing wrong with being a loner, nothing wrong with playing video games, etc. We can't just pick ONE of those things out of the group and say, "This was the sign!" It's only when you look at everything together that the pieces start falling into place. Out of context, some of the pieces are totally benign.

 

[oviedo]

See the CC, bottom of page 11: JP watched the news and social media (that’s where he learned the names of his victims). No mention of whether JC saw any tv etc reports.
http://media.graytvinc.com/documents/jayme+closs+complaint.pdf

Could she perhaps have heard some news on that radio he played ? Something gave her hope IMO to make that run to freedom ? I’m thinking JP May plead guilty because his fantasy is shattered ? JMO

 

[enelram]

I am seeing authority and father issues all over this. not to simplify, bc it is more complex than that, but in the little we have heard from his punishments of JC, he is like a child looking for a proxy he can act out the authority he has had acted out on him, while not wanting to get caught. and at the same time, taunting his own father by having him over with the girl hidden under his bed. I mean, how symbolic is that?

Excellent post. I agree completely.
Someone asked why these behaviors didn't show up earlier like in
HS and seemed to erupt after HS. I believe it's because the
perp was under control or living with the disciplining parent and
would have hell to pay if they acted out at that time.

When later after HS, perp is living on his own and no one looking
over his shoulder, except to grouse about no job.
Definitely daddy problems for many years.

 

[Peterpaul]

Good morning WS friends.

Bringing forward the criminal complaint and DAs’ press conference after the initial hearing. They answer some (not all) questions and speculation which keeps coming up.
http://media.graytvinc.com/documents/jayme+closs+complaint.pdf
Also a reminder that there is a lot more information than is in the criminal complaint that hasn’t been released.

And an aside: I feel very sorry for JP’s family members, especially his father - can you imagine what he’s going through knowing that he was in that house while JC was captive there? Not to mention having to think about what his son has done?

I feel sorry for the people that had their heads blown off by this maniac!

 

[Gracie55]

News even in GER:

13-Jährige wurde gezielt ausgewählt

View attachment 164461

"Das it's schade " is about the limit of my Deutche discourse anymore. Thx for sharing. Interesting it's made international news.

 

[enelram]

Exactly!

By all accounts, JP was never gainfully employed for more than 48 hours (Jennie-O, Energy Co, Cheese). I believe jobs were a routine, going through the motions, where JP would quit before they could terminate him, and so he could also appease his Dad/Mom that he tried and excuse, excuse, fill in the blank. I also believe this goes back to his discharge from the Marines -- something he wanted more than anything, and they didn't want him. MOO

 

[ilovechili]

I told you, we think alike. Thank you for saying what I've been thinking.... over and over.
I agree that they had reason not to release the description of a Ford Taurus obeying all traffic rules, apparently.

The thing about this car is that they have been EVERYWHERE. Probably every one of us who lives in the US knows someone, probably a family member, who has owned or may still own a Ford Taurus. Now, they might be OK for an old fishing car, or towing small recreational equipment in WI ( not sure what the weekend sports are there) or as just a " The 15 year old wants me to help her with her driving so we're taking the old Taurus".

IF an alarm had been put out for a red Taurus, they likely would have had 1000's of responses, and some people might have taken it too far, like searching their ex's garage, or staking out a WalMart parking lot for days on end.. It would be so counterproductive.
Unless they set up check points, they wouldn't have found him via his car due to the switched license plates, IMO.

I agree that it seems very strange about the red Challenger and the black mini van or people mover ( I don't know what it's called as I've never seen one).

A black SUV of the wide range of years and two possible models is probably even more common than an old red taurus. imo. so i do not see where the number of calls would have increased with the taurus over a generic black SUV. again, jmo.

 

[Sjm_qc]

I feel sorry for the people that had their heads blown off by this maniac!

So do I and I should have mentioned that too in my comment. I also feel immense sorrow for ALL James’, Denise’s & JC’s extended family, friends as well as the local community and the LE officers who were first on scene and discovered the murders.

That does not prevent me from feeling compassion and/or sympathy for the perpetrator’s family members.

 

[enelram]

Exactly!

By all accounts, JP was never gainfully employed for more than 48 hours (Jennie-O, Energy Co, Cheese). I believe jobs were a routine, going through the motions, where JP would quit before they could terminate him, and so he could also appease his Dad/Mom that he tried and excuse, excuse, fill in the blank. I also believe this goes back to his discharge from the Marines -- something he wanted more than anything, and they didn't want him. MOO

Your last sentence is spot on-
"the Marines-- something he wanted more than anything and they
DIDN't WANT HIM".
Long term feelings of rejection plays a heavy role in this perp.
Often male children who weren't wanted or accepted, develop
undeniable feelings of not fitting in, not worthy, no value and
then when disciplined or over-disciplined for small acts,
grow up festering these feeling and when free start to act them out.
In his mind he's paying back all those who treated him like
scum as a child.
This took a long time to fester.