Found Alive WI - Jayme Closs, 13, Barron, missing after parents found shot, 15 Oct 2018 *Arrest* #41

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I respectfully disagree because college is her FUTURE.
Doing something for her FUTURE is a very positive thing to do.

If we are going to try to think of everything that will or might be linked to a memory, I can tell you, it's massive for some people and part of post- trauma counseling has to do with focusing on the present and the future.

As Elizabeth Smart said because she also lived through such trauma, " creating a new normal".

Like I said to lily I’m
Conflicted on it... it’s tough either way, You both make good points, college, 10/20 years of therapy, living in places that are secure all cost a lot.... whatever they want to do is fine with me.... I’d hope 2 27 yr ees have decent life insurance.. it’s listed in co website.... that’s tax free and likely paid majority if not all to jayme.
 
I've lived in 2 very large houses with basements... Both post- trauma.. I was leery of any sound or anything because of the very clear and easy access -one had French doors and patio sliders and the other had a huge custom made door at street level which once was the family's garage door. You couldn't tell as the house had been remodeled professionally by the original master builder.
It might be that Jayme ( or Denise) or both didn't want to go down into the basement when JP was blasting in their door. I just don't know. Maybe he's a lying liar who lies and kills and Jayme did make it to the basement but not out of it. I don't think she did, but we really don't know if he subdued her and got out in 4 minutes just because he says so. Or that she never made any moves out of the bathroom but I'd have stayed with my mother at that age...

JP went into a fairly ooey gooey descriptive term for a fresh multiple murderer when he said Denise had Jayme in a " bear hug". It's a warm and fuzzy description, at least in my personal vocabulary, when they were his prey.... Things like this in his narrative in the official CC make me think he's saying what people think he should say based on movies and things. A Sociopath will MIMIC from movies and TV very often.

Great points. The bathroom could have been the best choice unseen where other attempts may have been seen. I also give his accounts no credence at all. I in no way give him one thought of oh, in that respect, he is telling the truth. Why would anyone think that?? Lies are probably the least of his crimes/problems in life and probably come naturally.

I would also point out that having no time to think, Denise and Jayme knew how close LE is located to their home. I also think opening a drawer or cabinet, etc. was a great idea. Because of that (if we are to believe this creep), it took him a ton of attempts to break in that bathroom.

Even with basement or patio door exits, they had no time and NO way of knowing there weren't 3 to 4 other people around the house waiting outside. Denise also managed with NO time to have her phone and think to take it and get both her and Jayme into the bathroom WITH her phone.

James never opened the front door and mom and daughter hid.

I don't think there is much else they could have done and did far more way more quickly than most of us may have. We can all say what we would do but who knows...

A perp always has an advantage over victims and LE. They know what they are planning in their sick heads, we don't. That advantage DOES not mean he is so very smart though... He simply has the advantage like if I started with all but one of the black and red checkers in a game of checkers.... Well, wow, you are so cunning, you beat me at that game of checkers??

Hey dumb *advertiser censored**, you are not that smart. Jayme, though, WAS. You had every bit of advantage over her--size--terror--control--age--and she got the best of you.

Okay, I need to settle down....

Edited: If I started with one checker I meant... Opponent had the rest...
 
I agree they had little time to make any choices and probably made the fastest one they could to hide in the tub in the locked bathroom, even pulling open the bathroom drawers to further barricade the door-- I thought that was very smart thinking. I think he would have chased them out the patio door because it seems likely it can be seen from the front door. Plus it was cold and they probably didn't have shoes on. Plus they didn't know how many bad guys there were or what they wanted. They made the best choices they could at the time and nothing they could have done could have changed things much since JTP went there prepared to murder. JMO.
I agree completely. I couldn't even imagine what it was like to be in that house that night. I'm more looking at it from the perspective of people looking at their own homes and circumstances, perhaps thinking of possible contingencies for the "what if". It also stems from my having worked in home security at one time. We had to look for every possible thing during the building survey, and sometimes having the customer walk us through previous invasions/crimes that had occurred at that site.
 
Are we talking about the Victoria's Secret line " PINK" ? Just wondering, because what I see in the catalog do not look appropriate for barely teen to wear except maybe as sleepwear...
This is not judgmental, I'm just wondering WHAT people are sending her, and as I have no daughter her age, I am totally unaware of what has been mentioned several times in this thread regarding " PINK". Thanks, and I hope this is not too OT, as it relates to what people might read and send her. Seriously.
Oh yes, I know which sleepwear you are referring to! I thought so at first too re. Pink, but there is also a kinda tshirt line in conjunction with Pink, which is what I'm referring to. I am sure (well, hopefully) that there aren't any weirdos sending her anything to do with the line you mentioned. I even bought one of the t-shirts myself as it is more of a sleep shirt. (and believe me, I'm a total prude lol). I just checked online as I was a bit confused too, and I see that VS does have a Pink line of t-shirts, like the one I saw J wearing in a photo somewhere. Unfortunately, it is part of the VS line, but I assume people sending items know what not to send. I also hope it all doesn't get to be too much for J, getting all of the mail.
 
Click on the first pic at the link I posted, and make it nice and big. On the right hand door, starting at the top wood frame and running all the way down the glass. It's a white-ish drippy cloud of goop. When it reaches the bottom, it turns black and drips to the ground. I discounted the condensation theory because this mess is on the outside. Do you really not see it?
This subject may be resolved already by now, but it almost looks like that solar film stuff you might use on a glass window or door where the sun hits too much. It tends to peel, often starting in one area. My car window is suffering a similar demise and looks a bit the same.
Unless it's a zombie shadow decoration. I think I see a mummy carrying a head! Oh! There's a skeleton...
 
unconsciously he despised authority, but he also feared it. he has not faced his hatred of authority or at least dealt with it. but he is a coward and ultimately submissive to authority. the only reason he shot James and Denise is bc he had already failed twice, he had a plan, he was mentally prepared, and he is so scared of authority he had to get rid of witnesses so he wouldn't get caught.


Agreed. He didn’t fear authority, he despised it.


I don't think he feared authority at all. He went to that house with the full intention of killing everyone except Jayme. He did not shoot James because he feared he would run after him, he shot him because he wanted to. He was fully prepared to shoot LE had they stopped him as well. Imo
 
Rather than Taurus... why not just do an apb to the public...

There was a Taurus that drove by closs residence at 12:58 on oct 16th. They pulled over and we went past them... we need to talk to that driver ASAP. Did u see anyone at closs home or leaving.. did u see anyone zoom past you leaving town.

If 0 response... it’s s flag ... find the car..
If it’s a townee returning from girlfriend or beer run than it’s nothing...

Surprised after 90 days they wouldn’t say we’re looking for size 11 tactical boot / access to shotgun or something...

They essentially were waiting to find body or second crime... without jayme having mental toughness and grapes to escape.. he’s likely not caught this time.
I agree!!! Withholding some of the details of the crime makes sense of course, but IMO LE should have released the information about the Taurus to the public!!! Sometimes keeping details private backfires.
 
exactly. and from this case I think some of us may think twice about a random late night knock at the door and take action other than what we would have before this case. out safety plans may change.

currently we have a serial shooter (11 shootings so far with injuries) on the highway that runs through town. I have changed my safety plan by avoiding this highway. My point is we learn to change our safety plans based on facts about recent crimes.

Absolutely. JP is not the norm for late night door knocks. He's a rare bird.
 
Apples to oranges. The murders and kidnapping were well thought out and planned as stated by JP himself and documented in the criminal complaint. LE and expert commentators agree. IMO, you're beating a dead horse here and it's derailing the thread. MOO
LE and experts have been wrong before per my previous posts
I'm not allowed to discuss the topic??!!?
 
LE is constantly communicating with the criminal through press conferences. it has very little to do with the facts of the case. it's all strategic to send specific messages.


Something that bothers me -- not aimed at LE, but it is still troubling. When this crime was still fresh -- early in the reporting -- there were news articles quoting sources saying that the front door was shot in -- (riddled w/ bullets) -- and that DC had attempted to barricade herself in the bathroom. Those details were quickly called into question by LE, which said none of that was confirmed.

Obviously, someone leaked true facts early to the press and the family, and LE responded by shutting that down. JP gets busted and confirms damned near ever fact in those early media reports. This SOP?
 
It seems to me that the part he *did* plan, the actual abduction, went perfectly for him. The failure was in the second part, which was keeping her. So if you look at it as two things, the first was indeed well planned and executed. The second, not so much and I think it's because he never thought beyond the "getting" and made good plans for the "keeping" MOO

I hope it's acceptable to wonder WHY he didn't plan well for her presence in his house somewhere.
As I think back on the things a Sociopath will do, one is to mimic actions usually from a movie or TV.
Maybe today, a video game.

Perhaps he had seen movies which showed someone storming a door ( SWAT team, the Marines) whatever, and that was the primary part of his criminal mind set, not that it was the GOAL, because abducting Jayme was, but that he was able to " recreate" the fantasy of kicking and shooting a door in easily.

Since he'd never BEEN a caregiver to any person as far as we know, and because I do not think a Sociopath can even THINK in terms of " What will ANY OTHER person need?" or " What will I need to do for this, that and the other thing that may come up?" this may have been his " troublesome area".

He does not discuss or describe much except the haphazard moving of a child sized bed and putting things which were already IN the house around the floor space to keep Jayme in the confined space.

This is something I can see siblings doing as game play OR maybe in anger to actually pin the other one in at around age 8-10. The dumbells and weights being the difference of course, but the larger, heavier child could have used something the younger child couldn't move in the same manner of weights.

We have the info from both Jayme and JP that music was played in his room and Jayme seemed to indicate it was for hours a day. She THOUGHT he had company over every day, lots of people coming and going.
I don't think so. I don't think he's EVER had much but an apparently persistent family or family member coming and going as they pleased since he became the lone tenant.
He was trying to look like a busy man, an important man with MANY FRIENDS, when he'd never been that or had that.
Why would he do so? Probably the sense of " What the movies showed about 21 year olds having friends over every evening and all weekend, in and out, parties etc". He almost certainly did NOT ever have those networks and relationships.

I think he wanted to play some sort of game for hours every day, and DID have some type of Internet access and a device to play on. Maybe it's not been mentioned by him because it wasn't HIS. Also, he stole gas from neighbors. If neighbors who lived close to him had home networks set up with relatively poor security, he could have hacked into their systems and played his game and they would never have known in certain types of internet connections and user preferences.

The other part is the incongruity. " I shot him in the face and he fell". I turned slightly and fired at her, hitting her in the head" which is true, we have every reason to believe, to " I played video games on a stolen tablet while J.L.C.was stuck underneath my old childhood bed for hours every day".

I think he didn't want to change ANYTHING about the things he liked to do in life, whatever horrible things we may or may not find out, and he planned so poorly that he truly could not support the daily captive life like a " real" kidnapper in a movie would have..
He said he hit the wall and screamed to scare her a couple of times. That is AWFUL for her, but it's a stark contrast to the PLANNED violence of what he'd just done to her parents.
 
I personally think the murders happened because he did such a bad job of planning the crime. all brawn and no brains.
it ended up being "well planned" bc he got scared off twice and was forced to make other arrangements. it was quite impulsive to begin with.

I feel like there are two different conversations going on here and our responses are somehow getting lost.

The plan was apparently well thought out enough that he was able to murder two people and kidnap one without getting caught at the time of the crime. He didn't get caught during or even slightly after committing the crime-he got caught when Jayme managed to escape 88 days later.
 
I agree completely. I couldn't even imagine what it was like to be in that house that night. I'm more looking at it from the perspective of people looking at their own homes and circumstances, perhaps thinking of possible contingencies for the "what if". It also stems from my having worked in home security at one time. We had to look for every possible thing during the building survey, and sometimes having the customer walk us through previous invasions/crimes that had occurred at that site.

He caught them off guard... yet still had to shoot door open, and pound his body against bathroom door, they protected the child well till the end....didn’t have time to grab gun.. or both phones..

For being such a genius criminal you’d think he’d know not to use shoulder... use your foot... and bathroom ...bend a coat hanger and your in on most doors..
 
Apples to oranges. The murders and kidnapping were well thought out and planned as stated by JP himself and documented in the criminal complaint. LE and expert commentators agree. IMO, you're beating a dead horse here and it's derailing the thread. MOO
Less than a minute after leaving Jayme’s house, Patterson drove past several squad cars rushing there in response to a 911 call her mother made before she was shot. They did not pull him over.
About 20 seconds later, Jayme heard sirens as police sped toward her house. Patterson’s car was “the lone vehicle” traveling east on Highway 8 away from the Closs home as deputies headed toward it, according to one of those deputies. There was no front license plate, but there was a black bracket on the front bumper. The deputies did not pull over the vehicle, which moved aside to let police through.
police ineptitude ??

1.--911 called during the crime
2. --cops right near him
--a. with her in the car--[ what kidnapper with brains plans or considers for cops to be driving by ? ]
3. --caught after 3 months
Jake Thomas Patterson planned to kidnap Jayme Closs after seeing her get on school bus, complaint says
 
Great points. The bathroom could have been the best choice unseen where other attempts may have been seen. I also give his accounts no credence at all. I in no way give him one thought of oh, in that respect, he is telling the truth. Why would anyone think that?? Lies are probably the least of his crimes/problems in life and probably come naturally.

I would also point out that having no time to think, Denise and Jayme knew how close LE is located to their home. I also think opening a drawer or cabinet, etc. was a great idea. Because of that (if we are to believe this creep), it took him a ton of attempts to break in that bathroom.

Even with basement or patio door exits, they had no time and NO way of knowing there weren't 3 to 4 other people around the house waiting outside. Denise also managed with NO time to have her phone and think to take it and get both her and Jayme into the bathroom WITH her phone.

James never opened the front door and mom and daughter hid.

I don't think there is much else they could have done and did far more way more quickly than most of us may have. We can all say what we would do but who knows...

A perp always has an advantage over victims and LE. They know what they are planning in their sick heads, we don't. That advantage DOES not mean he is so very smart though... He simply has the advantage like if I started with all but one of the black and red checkers in a game of checkers.... Well, wow, you are so cunning, you beat me at that game of checkers??

Hey dumb *advertiser censored**, you are not that smart. Jayme, though, WAS. You had every bit of advantage over her--size--terror--control--age--and she got the best of you.

Okay, I need to settle down....

Edited: If I started with one checker I meant... Opponent had the rest...

I agree with all of your post 100%. I especially thought it was clever of Denise to open a cabinet drawer. She knew what was happening/ had happened to James. SO tragic for a sweet, loving, ordinary but still SO special little family.
 
Maybe someone already suggested this, but it's possible there could be weatherizing plastic (on the inside of the house) over the double glass doors. A lot of us do that in certain areas of the home where the most cold air comes in. Doesn't look pretty, but sure helps :)
 
I personally think the murders happened because he did such a bad job of planning the crime. all brawn and no brains.
I think the murders happened because he planned them to happen.

He’s already said as much, and the crime is reflective of this. He came to kill.

His plan was brazen, reckless, yet ultimately effective.

He wore gloves, shaved his head, scrubbed the shotgun shells, and went prepared with duct tape.

His plan wasn’t brilliant, but there was a method to his madness.
 
I think this is what he planned (based on TV shows) and it all went wrong immediately and he was forced to kill the parents instead of leaving a 3rd time without completing the abduction. I think he went prepared to do whatever it took to take JC, but I also think he thought he could break in and take her while her parents slept with no one the wiser.

If Jayme had not been awakened by her barking dog and hadn't gone to her parents' room, I honestly think that JP would have simply broken into the house and killed the parents in their beds while they slept. I don't think there's anything they could've done differently in this case.
 
I personally think the murders happened because he did such a bad job of planning the crime. all brawn and no brains.
it ended up being "well planned" bc he got scared off twice and was forced to make other arrangements. it was quite impulsive to begin with.

I respectfully disagree that he has brawn. The GUN was his power.

Also, most Sociopaths are above average intelligence, and we have anecdotal evidence that he was considered " very smart" by his HS teachers and some fellow students.
JMO of course, :)

He had DISORDERED THINKING in addition to the overt violence. This is a main feature of IMPULSE CONTROL, which is almost completely lacking in a Sociopath.
 
I didn't see any weird goop on the door. Is that the door you were asking about? I looked for you, and just saw Halloween decorations. :cool:

And yes, there had to be an indoor staircase. I don't know, but I think more diagrams will come out later, also not to be ghoulish, but this house will be up for sale on realtor.com or zillow or somewhere and there might be so much new " refreshing' done upstairs that they'd post multiple photos of the house to show the pristine condition.
( THERE IS JUST NO WAY TO DISCUSS SOME OF THIS IN A SENSITIVE ENOUGH WAY. I AM SO SORRY).

I hope the house as well as the monster’s house is burned to the ground. Many fire depts burn down houses for practice.

Hopefully Jayme’s funds from life insurance, etc make it unnecessary to have the proceeds from the sale of the house.
 
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