CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #33 *ARREST*

[jaspermac]

PF is calling the shots, but Mom’s voice is subtly directing him. She didn’t mean to create the controlling, vindictive man he became ... but inadvertently she did by the way she treated him IMO. Strong ‘single’ or ‘divorced’ women sometimes “unintentionally” treat sons as if they aren’t as smart. The mother is simply “babying” the son, “loving” him, in her opinion, but the son thinks Mom does it because he’s not smart enough to do things on his own or as smart as female sibling - which leads to desire to control women by mental and/or physical abuse.
All speculation based on personal observances. MOO.

I don't think there is any evidence in psychology to support that. Yes, some strong, loving women can "baby' their sons but that is not what creates the desire to control women by mental or physical abuse. That usually creates loving sons, with possibly other issues ie can't cook for themselves, or do laundry, reliance issues etc.

That would take pathology - mean controlling, oppressive, temper, outbursts from the mother. It can also arise from many other environmental issues, the mother isn't necessarily the cause of his problems.

My own opinion is that intrinsically something is just wrong with someone who can plan to murder someone else. Is is gene gone bad? an area of the brain that didn't develop properly? add to that environmental factors and you create the monster..

 

[GordianKnot]

I'm saying that her comment tells me they didn't have any evidence at that time that might be destroyed in testing. The logical conclusion is that they didn't have any minute blood spatter samples likely to produce a match to KB's DNA. They could have had dozens of minute splatter samples that they gathered, though. KB's condo had some age on it, and with very high ceiling and textured walls, it would have been a bugger to paint. Even with good painting, organic stains survive a long time. Most of the powerful cleaners on the market contain some bleaching chemical, which can remove the color of the stain but not completely destroy the organic matter. Minute splatter residue from any number of human accidents or animal accidents.......sneezes, a bloody nose from a pillow fight, etc can be lurking out of sight until a thorough application of Luminol makes them shine like a flashlight on a dark night. There could literally be hundreds of lifted samples, and in fact many of them could match KB. It was her residence. A fresh distinctive pattern of minute splatters on a single wall, a large pattern of small particles in the cracks of a hardwood floor, or something of that nature. In a large pattern, it would routine to test and destroy selected spots to establish the pattern, while leaving plenty of spots for defense testing. Therefore that type of evidence would never have been an issue.
I am certainly NOT trying to say that that they have no evidence. I'm just saying there's a good chance that the evidence which convinced them the murder took place in her residence isn't minute particles of blood or other organic matter. IMO

Thanks for the clarification, Dave!

BBM: O/T, but with upcoming work travel, your post has given me the heebie-jeebies at the prospect of overnight hotel stays. *Note to self: pack pillows/sheets/towels/blankets. Do not touch hard surfaces.

 

[1mtroyal]

See, that is what is throwing me off...because , i just dont feel it would have been a bloody scene/confrontation. He dwarfed her. I feel like it would have been so easy for him to overpower her and end her life without bloodshed. IMO

I have always been under the impression that if a man is choking a woman an the woman's hands are free, a woman can cause a man extreme pain.

 

[jewelsmac]

I have always been under the impression that if a man is choking a woman an the woman's hands are free, a woman can cause a man extreme pain.

If it happened this way, I hope she caused him a whole lot of pain before she passed.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

I have always been under the impression that if a man is choking a woman an the woman's hands are free, a woman can cause a man extreme pain.

Men can choke other men to death. If you can't breathe, you can't defend yourself. One of the first things I learned in self defense was how to prevent being choked out. There are techniques that can work but they require some training and practice; it's a reflex to put your hands up and try to wedge between the hands or the garrote or to pull the hands off your neck. But the person being choked has no physical leverage.

The new Oxygen show that looked at the death of Dakota James (grad student found in a Pittsburgh river) speculates that he was strangled, by ligature, based on autopsy photos, and noted bruising on the fingers that might have been caused by trying to loosen the ligature. The best evidence we have that people can die when someone tries to strangle them? The hundreds of cases on this board in which people were strangled.

 

[jewelsmac]

*The following is entirely JMO.* I am hoping that KB had an Alexa or Google Home type device that PF didn't consider and therefore didn't disable. Other criminals have been caught from Alexa recordings. If there was such a device there, LE could have had audio proof that strongly supported that she was no longer alive without having found biological material to support that belief. JMO.

Heyyyy. That would definitely be up the “no reasonable expectation of privacy working in our favor” alley

 

[jewelsmac]

jewels, here is where I am hung up right now: he solicited her murder months in advance. So there was premeditation as well as what passes for "planning" with PF. However, I do think it's very possible he simply "lost it" that day at her place and he killed her violently himself. I've been wondering if the Thanksgiving holiday was some kind of trigger. Maybe he wanted to just show up and take baby K with him for Thanksgiving and KB said no, she was staying with her for the holiday. Or maybe KB was supposed to have gotten something ready for Thanksgiving, and she hadn't....or, or, or...I can think of a lot of scenarios. I think he had some kind of explosion that day. I think the murder was both premeditated AND spontaneous. JMO.

Just because it didn’t have to be a bloody scene, doesn’t mean that it wasn’t.

Of course he could have killed her in a bloodless way, but that doesn’t mean he did.

Much stronger men use guns, knives, blunt objects, and all sorts of other things in crimes like this.

I keep coming back to one thing though:

What happened after that final search (Kelsey being likely dead, and the house being the scene of her murder).

A witness statement wouldn’t suffice here. It would have to be corroborated by physical evidence.

That’s why I think blood.

I agree with these, I guess where my thought was going was… If you had planned this all in advance you would want it the least messy scene possible. I don’t think anyone’s going in there to, for lack of a better term, “make a mess”.. that they have to clean up. But perhaps “best laid plans” and all that. That sounds heartless and crass, but considering who we’re talking about…

 

[Love Never Fails]

I’m also thinking a combo of mostly premeditated murder, with a hint of spontaneous murder.

However, I think PF plotted to murder KB while she was doing her last ever run to Safeway. It was inevitable that PF would murder KB at some point given his persistence to get rid of her. Only in our dreams can we create better outcome where KK or anyone would stop him. PF was a ticking time bomb.

PF is combo of dangerous person + murder evidence. Sick, dark mind. He may be plotting his next murder right now. Yuck.

Hi srg. Welcome to Weblseuths.

 

[jewelsmac]

I don’t think the bloody aspect was in the murder itself. It was in the dismemberment afterward. Murderers will go to great lengths thinking they’ve gotten rid of the evidence. But they rarely think about the plumbing.

absolutely

 

[GordianKnot]

I have always been under the impression that if a man is choking a woman an the woman's hands are free, a woman can cause a man extreme pain.

Depends.

Is the woman being choked from the front or from behind?
What type of chokehold is he using?
Does she have long nails or short nails?
What is the height and reach difference between the man and the woman?
IMO, PF could have killed KB without her being able to inflict any damage on him whatsoever.
Unfortunately. JMO.

 

[Love Never Fails]

I don’t think the bloody aspect was in the murder itself. It was in the dismemberment afterward. Murderers will go to great lengths thinking they’ve gotten rid of the evidence. But they rarely think about the plumbing.

Why is anyone thinking he dismembered her? She was tiny. He could place her in a bag easily enough. That’s gross enough to think about without imagining dismemberment. Ugh....

 

[srg]

Hi srg. Welcome to Weblseuths.

Thank you for the warm welcome!!

 

[Lhughessk]

Why is anyone thinking he dismembered her? She was tiny. He could place her in a bag easily enough. That’s gross enough to think about without imagining dismemberment. Ugh....

It would have been tricky to remove her intact body without someone seeing. And for police to move so quickly to arrest him with no body, my feeling is that they found not just blood but tissue as well. Nothing visible at first glance, or else KB’s brother would have said something following his walk thru. That leaves the drain. And it’s possible that part of what PF disposed of at WM that day was plumbing that had been replaced.

 

[Hatch]

I don’t think the bloody aspect was in the murder itself. It was in the dismemberment afterward. Murderers will go to great lengths thinking they’ve gotten rid of the evidence. But they rarely think about the plumbing.

Thinking there would be a tremendous amount of blood with the act of dismemberment. IMO I just cannot see PF taking time to do that in her condo.

 

[InvSmith]

PF is calling the shots, but Mom’s voice is subtly directing him. She didn’t mean to create the controlling, vindictive man he became ... but inadvertently she did by the way she treated him IMO. Strong ‘single’ or ‘divorced’ women sometimes “unintentionally” treat sons as if they aren’t as smart. The mother is simply “babying” the son, “loving” him, in her opinion, but the son thinks Mom does it because he’s not smart enough to do things on his own or as smart as female sibling - which leads to desire to control women by mental and/or physical abuse.
All speculation based on personal observances. MOO.

Generally, psychopathy would have more of a severe dominating mother as a feature if this were the case. Domination and emasculation which I am not seeing in the small examples that we have seen. I think his homicidal tendencies are his own.

 

[InvSmith]

Possibly and a good theory. I think he was just stupid and careless. moo!

So true! He is the Colonel Mustard. People are never prepared for the amount of scrutiny by law enforcement.

 

[GordianKnot]

I agree with these, I guess where my thought was going was… If you had planned this all in advance you would want it the least messy scene possible. I don’t think anyone’s going in there to, for lack of a better term, “make a mess”.. that they have to clean up. But perhaps “best laid plans” and all that. That sounds heartless and crass, but considering who we’re talking about…

It's pretty much the mantra of this thread:

"This is PF we're talking about here."
"This is PF we're talking about here."
"This is PF we're talking about here."

Nothing, but nothing, is too stupid for him.

JMO.

 

[ajaylee]

I have always been under the impression that if a man is choking a woman an the woman's hands are free, a woman can cause a man extreme pain.

PF was much bigger than KB and if he was choking her from behind, I think she'd have difficulty hitting him where it hurts.

I just can't see him killing her in a way that would be bloody. No guns, no knives, and he would want it to be quick and clean, just like if he were putting a horse down. I'm not sold on the dismemberment idea either.

The one (ugh, I hate to describe it) scenario I can think of that would leave biological evidence would be if he took her out with a monster blow with a blunt instrument. He's big and strong and likely could have broken her skull with a single blow. That wouldn't leave much (ugh) of a mess, but any traces left behind (brain matter, skull bone fragment) would certainly be damning evidence.

 

[Kapua]

It would have been tricky to remove her intact body without someone seeing. And for police to move so quickly to arrest him with no body, my feeling is that they found not just blood but tissue as well. Nothing visible at first glance, or else KB’s brother would have said something following his walk thru. That leaves the drain. And it’s possible that part of what PF disposed of at WM that day was plumbing that had been replaced.

The best way to remove a body without anyone seeing is to do it in the early morning hours when it's dark and everyone's asleep, IMHO. Also, nobody would think twice about seeing a truck with a covered truck bed or a tarp over the truck bed.

 

[ajaylee]

It would have been tricky to remove her intact body without someone seeing. And for police to move so quickly to arrest him with no body, my feeling is that they found not just blood but tissue as well. Nothing visible at first glance, or else KB’s brother would have said something following his walk thru. That leaves the drain. And it’s possible that part of what PF disposed of at WM that day was plumbing that had been replaced.

I'm not so sure. He's a farrier, there are ranches around, it's not unusual to see pickup beds full of bundles and bales and 'stuff'. He's big enough to have wrapped her in a tarp, taken her outside, and tossed her in the pickup bed almost in a matter of seconds.

I think the risk here for him was being seen carrying anything bigger than a shopping bag or a diaper bag plus his daughter out of the condo. But if he were seen, he'd still look suspicious hauling heavy smaller bags of parts out to the pickup.

MOO!

eta: I haven't seen enough pictures of her condo. In the ones I saw, it seemed reasonably private. Depending on the windows and what cars were in the parking lot, PF might have had a pretty good idea of who was home. He was a regular there, so unless KB's neighbors were really nosy, he wouldn't draw attention.