CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #33 *ARREST*

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ajaylee said:
I thought the whole point of the lawsuit was to allow them to depose PF.

If so, then they don't need a compelling case - winning is not the ultimate object. They just need the case not to get thrown out before PF is questioned.

Question for the legal minds: what happens in a civil case if the defendant refuses to answer questions? Contempt of court?

I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone is going to compel PF to talk if he doesn't want to. I think he'll be another Casey Anthony in this regard.
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Using a wrongful death action just to get to depose PF to get information about the KB's death really wouldn't work. He can just invoke his 5th Amendment right against self-incrimination and not answer much. Even if he totally refused to cooperate, the court could only hold him in contempt and that doesn't really do much. Now, they could use the suit to gain access to the ranchette property for inspection or to get access to phone records, bank records, etc. But LE already has all of that. They could use the suit to depose other witnesses however, and force them to show up for questioning.
 
I tune in and you guys are still in the pasture with those cows ! Typically it takes 2 calves to recoup your investment on a good young heifer. After two years you should be seeing a profit from $600- 1000 per year from each cow from the sell of their calf.
If you have 94 good healthy Mama cows you could make a decent living, especially if you own your land and have some crop land to grow some feed. Your profit margin will be less if you are making land payments, supplement feeding etc. PF most likely got top dollar for his calves and cows because they were Registered Angus and I believe I saw some WFB's and most were bred . So the buyer is paying a little more but getting more bang for his buck. Most sellers of registered cattle are selling to other ranchers that are growing and improving their blood lines by adding the registered cattle. IMO PF was raising quality not quantity . Registered cattle bring more initially because you are purchasing bloodlines for health and production. IMO his lender( if he had one ) most likely initiated or suggested the sell of any mortgaged cattle. That would be a standard procedure due to the circumstances. That is my 2 cow patty's worth of knowledge. MOO MOO MOO
 
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Do folks here think PF and SF have talked about this?

Chris Watts's father asked him what happened and Watts told him. It was terrible to watch.

Does anyone think SF has asked PF what's going on? The media claims (without any proof that I've seen) that she is standing by him 100%, just not publicly. What does that even mean? I don't imagine PF has volunteered much, other than to say that any time a woman goes missing, LE starts with her male companions.

A few posters have mentioned that PF seems to think that ultimately he'll get off if LE can't produce a body and he seems confident that they won't ever find that body. The remains of another missing woman were recently found in Colorado.

I wonder if one or more of PF's family members in LE chatted about any of the missing Colorado woman cases and perhaps even commented on the difficulty of making a case if the body is hidden well.
 
soap mama said:
Well the Berreths aren’t incarcerated so strike two for PF
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The only way IMO PF will have custody of baby K is if he walks. Shutter at the thought and the double heartache for the Berreth family. I do think there would be some legality depending on if his name is listed on the birth certificate, if it is not I do think he would have to petition for DNA testing proving he is the biological Father then GTO from there.
 
Hatch said:
The only way IMO PF will have custody of baby K is if he walks. Shutter at the thought and the double heartache for the Berreth family. I do think there would be some legality depending on if his name is listed on the birth certificate, if it is not I do think he would have to petition for DNA testing proving he is the biological Father then GTO from there.
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For fourteen months until he was incarcerated, PF readily performed all of the duties of fatherhood, in addition to claiming fatherhood; with KB's full permission. The ONLY way the B's could dispute his fatherhood at all would be with a negative DNA test. Frankly, I don't see parents trying to prove their daughter didn't know who the father of her baby was. It just doesn't compute in my mind.
My point in posting the link to the article is that including his child as a plaintiff in a lawsuit against him might bring in several other issues. I think PF has clearly signalled that he is going to fight not just to clear his name, but to exercise his rights to be a father to his daughter.
As long as I'm spouting my opinion only, I'd like to say that PF clearly has assets to draw from to bankroll the fight, and unfortunately big civil battles sometimes devolve into a contest of issue after issue, until it seems that who can suffer the expenses the longest will eventually win.
It's going to be a long and very interesting fight on all three fronts.......the criminal prosecution, the legal quest for long term custody of the child, and the suit for damages. IMO
 
Dave F. said:
For fourteen months until he was incarcerated, PF readily performed all of the duties of fatherhood, in addition to claiming fatherhood; with KB's full permission. The ONLY way the B's could dispute his fatherhood at all would be with a negative DNA test. Frankly, I don't see parents trying to prove their daughter didn't know who the father of her baby was. It just doesn't compute in my mind.
My point in posting the link to the article is that including his child as a plaintiff in a lawsuit against him might bring in several other issues. I think PF has clearly signalled that he is going to fight not just to clear his name, but to exercise his rights to be a father to his daughter.
As long as I'm spouting my opinion only, I'd like to say that PF clearly has assets to draw from to bankroll the fight, and unfortunately big civil battles sometimes devolve into a contest of issue after issue, until it seems that who can suffer the expenses the longest will eventually win.
It's going to be a long and very interesting fight on all three fronts.......the criminal prosecution, the legal quest for long term custody of the child, and the suit for damages. IMO
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Well good luck with that. You can't be much of a father if you are incarcerated for life. I have no worries re the Berreth's getting custody. Been down that road in my family and daddy dearest does not have custody or visitation. And the battle wasn't hard. Paternal grandparents do have visitation because that was best for the children.

In my opinion he also doesn't have the assets to bankroll any real fight. He has the money he made from the cattle minus loans and he's 32 so maybe some savings, but whatever it is the lawyers eat that up pretty fast. The other critical indicator that he doesn't the assets to bankroll a big fight is that he currently has a public defender. That is a pretty big indicator.
 
Dave F. said:
For fourteen months until he was incarcerated, PF readily performed all of the duties of fatherhood, in addition to claiming fatherhood; with KB's full permission. The ONLY way the B's could dispute his fatherhood at all would be with a negative DNA test. Frankly, I don't see parents trying to prove their daughter didn't know who the father of her baby was. It just doesn't compute in my mind.
My point in posting the link to the article is that including his child as a plaintiff in a lawsuit against him might bring in several other issues. I think PF has clearly signalled that he is going to fight not just to clear his name, but to exercise his rights to be a father to his daughter.
As long as I'm spouting my opinion only, I'd like to say that PF clearly has assets to draw from to bankroll the fight, and unfortunately big civil battles sometimes devolve into a contest of issue after issue, until it seems that who can suffer the expenses the longest will eventually win.
It's going to be a long and very interesting fight on all three fronts.......the criminal prosecution, the legal quest for long term custody of the child, and the suit for damages. IMO
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@Dave F. I agree the Berreths clearly know who the Father to baby K is, I was stating in my opinion if he was not charged with her murder that he would most likely not be given custody immediately without some litigation IMO. I always like to read your unbiased point of view.
Edit : typo
 
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jaspermac said:
Well good luck with that. You can't be much of a father if you are incarcerated for life. I have no worries re the Berreth's getting custody. Been down that road in my family and daddy dearest does not have custody or visitation. And the battle wasn't hard. Paternal grandparents do have visitation because that was best for the children.

In my opinion he also doesn't have the assets to bankroll any real fight. He has the money he made from the cattle minus loans and he's 32 so maybe some savings, but whatever it is the lawyers eat that up pretty fast. The other critical indicator that he doesn't the assets to bankroll a big fight is that he currently has a public defender. That is a pretty big indicator.
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Or he's so confident that he's going to get off that he doesn't see the point in wasting his money on a lawyer for the trial if there's a freebie available.
 
Dave F. said:
For fourteen months until he was incarcerated, PF readily performed all of the duties of fatherhood, in addition to claiming fatherhood; with KB's full permission. The ONLY way the B's could dispute his fatherhood at all would be with a negative DNA test. Frankly, I don't see parents trying to prove their daughter didn't know who the father of her baby was. It just doesn't compute in my mind.
My point in posting the link to the article is that including his child as a plaintiff in a lawsuit against him might bring in several other issues. I think PF has clearly signalled that he is going to fight not just to clear his name, but to exercise his rights to be a father to his daughter.
As long as I'm spouting my opinion only, I'd like to say that PF clearly has assets to draw from to bankroll the fight, and unfortunately big civil battles sometimes devolve into a contest of issue after issue, until it seems that who can suffer the expenses the longest will eventually win.
It's going to be a long and very interesting fight on all three fronts.......the criminal prosecution, the legal quest for long term custody of the child, and the suit for damages. IMO
Click to expand...

Hopefully a great and noble attorney 'jumps in' to help the Berreth's --pro bono-- for all of their legal battles deriving from this cold blooded murderer. God knows they deserve it. The motives of the other side are clear and vindictive (moo).
 
Dave F. said:
For fourteen months until he was incarcerated, PF readily performed all of the duties of fatherhood, in addition to claiming fatherhood; with KB's full permission. The ONLY way the B's could dispute his fatherhood at all would be with a negative DNA test. Frankly, I don't see parents trying to prove their daughter didn't know who the father of her baby was. It just doesn't compute in my mind.
My point in posting the link to the article is that including his child as a plaintiff in a lawsuit against him might bring in several other issues. I think PF has clearly signalled that he is going to fight not just to clear his name, but to exercise his rights to be a father to his daughter.
As long as I'm spouting my opinion only, I'd like to say that PF clearly has assets to draw from to bankroll the fight, and unfortunately big civil battles sometimes devolve into a contest of issue after issue, until it seems that who can suffer the expenses the longest will eventually win.
It's going to be a long and very interesting fight on all three fronts.......the criminal prosecution, the legal quest for long term custody of the child, and the suit for damages. IMO
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https://www.dhs.state.or.us/caf/safety_model/procedure_manual/appendices/ch4-app/4-16.pdf

Interesting articles

https://www.ccjrc.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/ParentingFromPrison.pdf
 
Hatch said:
@Dave F. I agree the Berreths clearly know who the Father to baby K is, I was stating in my opinion if he was not charged with her murder that he would most likely not been given custody immediately without some litigation IMO. I always like to read your unbiased point of view.
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The Teller County DHS moved to take custody of PF's child before PF was arrested, based on information provided to them by the Woodland Park Police Department. They also submitted to the judge, at that time, a recommendation that the child be given to CB for temporary physical custody, which also had to have been on the rfecommendation of the Woodland Park Police Department. They took physical custody of the child as PF and his mother were standing handcuffed, and drove away with her in a separate vehicle. The purpose of the one hearing that has been held was simply to advise PF of the proceedings and to partially acqaint the judge with the parameters of the action. The judge elected to continue the arrangement initiated for the time being, stating that it was in the best interest of the child at this time. SF requested to join in the action, and was given a bunch of papers and instructions for use in stating her interest in custody. A hearing was set, but the judges changed in rotation the following week, so the next hearing will start with a refresher to get the judge settled in. It's looking like the decision to incarcerate PF for life, if it comes, will be in about five years. I doubt seriously if the child custody issue is going to last that long. In the mean time, PF does have some rights as an incarcerated father that have to be considered. That was my point. IMO
 
ajaylee said:
I thought the whole point of the lawsuit was to allow them to depose PF.

If so, then they don't need a compelling case - winning is not the ultimate object. They just need the case not to get thrown out before PF is questioned.

Question for the legal minds: what happens in a civil case if the defendant refuses to answer questions? Contempt of court?

I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone is going to compel PF to talk if he doesn't want to. I think he'll be another Casey Anthony in this regard.
Click to expand...

lawyer might ask for a stay pending outcome of the criminal trial
 
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