Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, and Liberty (Libby) German, 14/The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #87

[Jim_M]

Yesterday I was thinking again about BG getting out of there with no witnesses, as well as the concept of BG out there specifically hunting vs. opportunistically coming across the girls while he was out there for another reason.

I realized that where his vehicle (or motorcycle) was parked might impact this question of premeditation. In other words, if he parked elsewhere and hid his vehicle beforehand then that implies he was planning on a committing a crime.

Is it okay to reply yet?

Makes me wonder if they were able to track all the vehicles in all the parking lots? IMO could they?

 

[Deathsgrandaughter]

Could they have still been alive that night? Is that why we don't have the estimated (or exact?) time of death? Would that really ding our faith, if they were alive most of that night? Is that a harsh way to look at what may have happened? I pray they were not.

I believe that although the official search was called off searchers continued all through the night. I am sure I read recently from LE that they could not just tell people to stop, so many locals carried on looking through the night.
As to whether the girls were alive after BG had left, that line of thought seems to lie the way of madness. I truly hope not, but it is not helpful to dwell on it . I know there has been speculation that one girl survived until the next day, given the obituary information, but there seems to be little evidence that is anything other than family choice - one family opted for the disappearance date, one for the discovery date.

 

[margarita25]

Is it okay to reply yet?

Makes me wonder if they were able to track all the vehicles in all the parking lots? IMO could they?

Heehee, thanks for putting up wth me !

Indeed. Can anyone bring up any details again re: the parking lot if they remember? There was something(s) but I can’t remember now what it was.

By the way, I still haven’t watched the presser. I got really discouraged after reading everyone’s comments, just sayin.

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ETA:
Last night there was a show on about the Golden State Killer. I hit record because everything being said imo sounded just like it could have been referring to the case at hand. Note to watch that and post specifically what I mean.

 

[margarita25]

One thing which irks me some about LE in this case is I don't understand why they haven't urged people to be vigilant. I don't believe he's from Delphi, IN, and that people in public parks, on trails, etc., need to be vigilant. Be aware of surroundings, report suspicious activity, and so on in such places, say within a 300-400 miles.

I've thought for some time LE are not going to solve this case, they would have solved it, already, if they had solid evidence. It's up to the public to solve it.

JMO

Thank you very much for saying this.

Yes, the recent interview in which it is explained how they didn’t want to scare the community—-and seemed to indicate that the community was not in further danger? How do they know this? And how did the know this was going to be an isolated incident? This approach here was compleeeeetrly opposite of LE’s approach in Jessica Ridgeway’s case. They very clearly warned us that we’ve got a serious problem. Obviously there are clear differences between these two cases as far as a populated residential neighborhood vs. isolated bridge, but...in Jessica’s case they knew he was closeby.

I think maybe LE suspects he is not local. We remember the billboards, are any still up?

 

[Jim_M]

I believe that although the official search was called off searchers continued all through the night. I am sure I read recently from LE that they could not just tell people to stop, so many locals carried on looking through the night.
As to whether the girls were alive after BG had left, that line of thought seems to lie the way of madness. I truly hope not, but it is not helpful to dwell on it . I know there has been speculation that one girl survived until the next day, given the obituary information, but there seems to be little evidence that is anything other than family choice - one family opted for the disappearance date, one for the discovery date.

Yes, I recall that. Abby's family went with Feb 14. Libby's family with Feb 13. I thought that was confirmed in an interview at some point. Oh you are so right. I don't dwell on it, but the what if's.....

 

[Steleheart]

"We feel this is very important because it actually gives a better view of the person in the picture that you see down below," Sgt. Kim Riley said at a press conference"

ISP: Man in photo considered Delphi suspect
Snipped original post by me for clarity, underlined and BBM
What is this referring to?

IIRC Riley was referring to the picture of BG on the bridge which was displayed below the podium at the press conference along with Abby and Libby's pictures..

 

[Gracie55]

The man in the composite sketch has very similar features as Libby, identical eyebrows, both appear to have slightly smaller right eyes, cheeks very similar, noses almost identical, both have small slim lips and both appear to have same fair coloring. Maybe I'm crazy....

I see a similarity as well, not identical features but could be, although I am not sure how it relates. If it was a related person surely he'd have been recognized, but maybe LE is keeping it under wraps so as not to spook him.

 

[Steleheart]

I see a similarity as well, not identical features but could be, although I am not sure how it relates. If it was a related person surely he'd have been recognized, but maybe LE is keeping it under wraps so as not to spook him.

Discussions about connecting family members to this crime have been disallowed from the beginning. The family has beeen victimized enough.
JMO

 

[JnRyan]

Yesterday I was thinking again about BG getting out of there with no witnesses, as well as the concept of BG out there specifically hunting vs. opportunistically coming across the girls while he was out there for another reason.

I realized that where his vehicle (or motorcycle) was parked might impact this question of premeditation. In other words, if he parked elsewhere and hid his vehicle beforehand, then that implies he was planning on a committing a crime.

IOW, if he parked somewhere other than one of the designated parking areas. Didn't LE ask if anyone noted someone walking on one of the roads in the area? I thought I heard that very early on and then I didn't hear it again.

 

[margarita25]

IOW, if he parked somewhere other than one of the designated parking areas. Didn't LE ask if anyone noted someone walking on one of the roads in the area? I thought I heard that very early on and then I didn't hear it again.

Yes iirc it was along the Hoosier Heartland Hwy, asked if anyone saw anyone, maybe hitchhiking with a duffle bag. I’m glad to see renewed discussion here of the full trail system into town, etc.

Delphi Historic Trails in Indiana | TrailLink

Delphi Historic Trails Facts

States: Indiana
Counties: Carroll
Length: 9.8 miles
Trail end points: Canal Park at N. Washington St. near N. Charles St. and Trailhead Park at Old IN 25, 0.8 mile south of IN 39
Trail surfaces: Boardwalk, Concrete, Crushed Stone
Trail category: Rail-Trail
ID: 6015701
Trail activities: Bike, Fishing, Wheelchair Accessible, Walking, Cross Country Skiing

Visitors to the Delphi Historic Trails network can tour the historical town of Delphi in north-central Indiana by foot or bicycle—or skis in the winter—on old canal towpaths and former railroad corridors. Nearly 10 miles of trail follow the routes of the Monon Railroad and the Wabash and Erie Canal, as well as city streets that pass houses and public buildings that are on the National Register of Historic Places.

Snip

Beginning at Canal Park northwest of downtown, you can visit an interpretive museum and a canal-era village with historical structures or experience replica canalboat tours. Tent camping and a few RV sites are also available.

A section of the network called the Underhill Towpath Trail is a good place to start; follow the 1-mile trail north across Washington Street to another section called the Founders Towpath Trail. This 0.5-mile trail loops around to the 0.5-mile Draper North End Trail and passes the restored iron bridge (from 1873) on its way to Founders Point and the “tumble,” where fresh groundwater feeds the canal. Draper Trail swings back past the cutoff to Belt Railroad Trail, a 0.3-mile section of trail along a former railroad that served local merchants and connected to Monon Railroad.

Draper Trail also runs past a replica limekiln from the 1850s canal heydays, as well as a replica warehouse and boathouse, and then back to Washington Street. Picking up the Underhill Towpath Trail heading south, you’ll pass a replica guard lock and a historical railroad baggage depot station.

You’ll pass through a tunnel under a railroad on the way out of town and then another tunnel under US 421. Follow the trail across the Blue Bridge, a 78-foot iron bridge built in 1905 and moved here in 2007. Now you’re on the mile-long VanScoy Towpath Trail, where historical markers provide information on an Irish work camp, the site of Lock #33, and paper mill sites.

At the end of the VanScoy Trail is Sunset Point, featuring a view of Deer Creek, the canal, and the Wabash River. A spur from the river goes to Robbins Trail, a 0.5-mile section along Deer Creek that offers access to Trailhead Park and Deer Creek Falls.

The Robbins Trail turns into Happy Jack’s Loop with a spur to the site of Smith Dairy Farm along the Interurban Trail, a 0.8-mile route. The interconnecting trail system also includes routes along city streets and paths along Campbell Ridge Trail (a 1-mile loop at the south end of VanScoy) and the Monon High Bridge Trail (1.5 miles) beginning at City Park at the corner of East Monroe and North Walnut Streets. The Monon High Bridge Trail stops just short of a circa 1890 railroad bridge that soars some 60 feet over the creek.

Parking and Trail Access

To reach the trailhead at Canal Park: From I-65, take Exit 175 toward Delphi on IN 25. Head northeast on IN 25, and go 10.9 miles. Turn left onto Old St. Road 25, and go 2.7 miles. Turn left onto W. Monroe St./US 421. In 0.6 mile turn right onto N. Ninth St. Go 0.2 mile and turn right into the driveway one block past New York St. Take that 0.4 mile to parking at Canal Park.

To find the Monon High Bridge Trail from Canal Park, leave the northeast entrance of the parking lot and turn right onto N. Washington St. Go 0.5 mile and turn left onto Monroe St. In another 0.5 mile turn right onto N. Walnut St. Go about 100 feet and look for parking on your right.

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Trail map:
Delphi Historic Trails Map - Canal Park at N. Washington St. near N. Charles St. to Trailhead Park at Old IN 25, 0.8 mile south of IN 39 | TrailLink

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BBM:

“The Robbins Trail turns into Happy Jack’s Loop with a spur to the site of Smith Dairy Farm along the Interurban Trail, a 0.8-mile route. The interconnecting trail system also includes routes along city streets and paths along Campbell Ridge Trail (a 1-mile loop at the south end of VanScoy) and the Monon High Bridge Trail (1.5 miles) beginning at City Park at the corner of East Monroe and North Walnut Streets. The Monon High Bridge Trail stops just short of a circa 1890 railroad bridge that soars some 60 feet over the creek.“

Did he get on the trail at City Park, East Monroe and North Walnut, what’s around there?

What about Wabash/Erie Canal...

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Also again were there any gun shows or auctions near Delphi around that time?

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“Smith Dairy Farm”...

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This is interesting :

Sifting through history in Delphi excavation

“Mark Smith, Carroll County historian, said the land where the Baums’ home once stood was also the place to several other important historical moments in the county, such as an Indian trail, the Lake Erie, Wabash and St. Louis Railroad and the Smith Dairy Farm, which sat next to the Baum occupation.

“This is a very layered site, historically speaking,” Mark Smith said.

The Baum cabin was also served as Carroll County’s first courthouse from 1828-1829, Mark Smith said.

“That’s the real gripping importance of the area,” Mark Smith said. “You usually think about legal matters being conducted in a marble palace courthouse — no. From 1828-1829, they were conducted here, along the Deer Creek, including the naming of the city of Delphi.”“

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Is BG possibly familiar with this area due to something historical, restoration projects, forestry, lands...

 

[MistyWaters]

Throughout 87 threads of discussion about this case, if the cause of death was by gunshot it’s been suggested people in the area would’ve been immediately been alerted of something amiss. I think that’s because we tend to brainstorm this crime relying on our own parameters of imagination, including the thought of hearing gunfire would prompt an immediate 911 call.

But I vaguely recall it mentioned by locals that hearing gunshots in the distance was not extraordinarily unusual nor would it cause immediate alarm.

A quirky coincidence of an incident occurring so close to the anniversary of the tragedy, that these men were legally hunting rabbits in February within Carroll County along an abandoned railway line would appear to support that point as well.

Carroll County man injured while hunting

 

[margarita25]

Mulling over this again:
City of Delphi - Biking & Hiking Trails

“The Delphi Historic Trails system now has over 10 miles of groomed trails. They are wide, crushed limestone surfaces, and they lead to some of the most interesting things. Trails have been constructed over several years, primarily by volunteers, and they are open to walkers, runners, and bikers. A trail map brochure with descriptions is available at Canal Park, the City Building, and other locations in Delphi.

Places to start include:
Trailhead Park next to Deer Creek, one mile southwest of Delphi on State Road 25.
Another entrance to the trail system is off State Road 25 two tenths of a mile south of Trailhead Park.
Also off SR 25 near Arby’s is parking for Interurban trail access.
Limited parking is available behind Pizza Hut off Bicycle Bridge Road, adjacent to the historic Blue Bridge.
Scenic tours also begin at both Canal Park and Canal Park Annex, 11 blocks north of the Court House stoplight on Washington Street. Riley Park on South Washington Street also provides parking and access to trails.
Another starting place with parking is City Park in East Delphi.
The trails map shows all the trails and their access points. Informational displays are strategically located along the trails. The Wabash & Erie Canal Park and Interpretive Center on North Washington Street provides abundant information about the Canal and its history.”

http://www.cityofdelphi.org/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=5&Itemid=135

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I would imagine they would check the Pizza Hut and Arby’s if they have surveillance?

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Wabash & Erie Canal Park
1030 N. Washington Street, Delphi, Indiana 46923
765.564.6572 / www.wabashanderiecanal.org /
Nestled in the valley of the Wabash River in northwest central Indiana lies Delphi. In the 1850s era of canal boats, this Carroll County town was once a booming home to commerce. Today, Delphi is once again in an exciting period of growth and revitalization. The newly designated Delphi Courthouse Square National Register Historic District welcomes visitors with antique stores, shops, and restaurants.
The 10 mile Delphi Historic Trails system is comprised of eight miles of rural, “open” space and two miles of urban “street” trails. Trail routes run along the Wabash River, Deer Creek and watered remnants of the Wabash & Erie Canal. They also take hikers and bikers past architectural gems in residential areas and in the Courthouse Square Historic District.
Get a full trails map & brochure at the Wabash & Erie Canal Center.
Trail descriptions on back>
Delphi, Indiana TRAILS MAP
From Interstate 65, take exit 175 in Lafayette at State Road 25 going northeast to Delphi. At the Courthouse stoplight, turn left onto Washington Street. Canal Park is 11 blocks north.
From Logansport, take SR 25 southwest to Delphi. At the Courthouse stoplight, turn right onto Washington Street. Canal Park is 11 blocks north.
Directions (to Canal Park)
Delphi’s Historic Trails feature a section of Indiana’s Wabash Heritage Corridor Trail. All of the trails directly following along the canal are part of that trail.
Trails are open dawn until dusk.
No motorized vehicles or hunting allowed.

Trail Descriptions
Founders Towpath Trail – .5 mile
Between North Washington Street and Founders Point, this trail runs along the west side of the beautiful, watered section of the canal, joining the Draper Trail at the “tumble.” Here, three million gallons of fresh water from the Delphi Limestone Company’s diversion pumps enter the canal daily.
Draper North End Trail – .5 mile
Between Founders Point and North Washington Street, this trail runs past the National Register Harley and Hubbard Lime Kiln site, where locally quarried limestone was “burned” to produce mortar, plaster and whitewash in the canal era. The trail also passes the warehouse where the canal boat is housed.
Belt Railroad Trail – .3 mile
Between the North End Trail and Carrollton Road, this trail follows a century old path of the Delphi Commercial Club rail line. Here, the Harley Brothers Lime Kilns and Delphi Ice Plant operated into the 20th century. At the junction with Car- rollton Road, the Wabash River Scenic Route and the Wabash Heritage Corridor Trail begins heading 5 miles north to Car- rollton Bridge where canal boats crossed the Wabash.
Underhill Towpath Trail – .9 mile
Between Highway 421 and North Washington Street, this trail crosses over the Wabash and Erie Canal and runs through the heart of Canal Park along a very popular section of the canal.
VanScoy Towpath Trail – 1.0 miles
Between Highway 421 and Sunset Point, this trail contains many breathtaking views and historic sites. At the southern end is “Sunset Point”, overlooking where Deer Creek meets the Wabash. A rest area provides the hiker a serene view every season of the year. Along the way, you’ll pass Canal Lock #33 and the 1838-39 Irish Canal Construction Camp, both listed on the National Register of Historic Places, as well as the site of two prosperous paper mills that operated in the mid 1800s.
Obear Millrace Loop Trail – .6 mile
A side trail off the VanScoy, this trail overlooks the Wabash River and then traces the channel up to the paper mill sites before rejoining it again. The mills received their power from the surplus canal water which then exited to the river.
Robbins Trail – .5 mile
Connecting the VanScoy Towpath Trail with Interurban
Trail and Happy Jack’s Loop, this trail runs past the end of a suspension bridge in Trailhead Park, under SR 25, and past beautiful Deer Creek Falls. Lined with tall sycamore and cot- tonwood trees, it traces Deer Creek along the shale bluff that once was the edge of a man-made lake used to convey canal boats across the valley. This thinly layered dark stone bluff protruded almost to the Wabash River.
Happy Jack’s Loop – .5 mile
A loop trail off the Interurban, this beautiful trail runs between the old Smith Dairy Farm site and the east end of the Robbins Trail at Deer Creek Falls, tracing along the north bank of Deer Creek.
Interurban Trail – .8 mile
Between SR 25 and VanDerVogen Overlook at Deer Creek Falls, this trail joins the Robbins Trail and offers scenic views. In the early 1900s, commuter electric trains, called “Interurbans,”
ran on narrow tracks along the elevated portions of the current trail. The VanDerVolgen rest area, named in memory of a local blacksmith and canal volunteer, is on the high pillar of a bridge abutment overlooking beautiful Deer Creek Falls.
Downtown Loop Trail – .9 mile
Between 421 and points downtown, this urban trail connects the outlying trail system with the Delphi Courthouse Square National Register Historic District. It follows streets past beautiful and architecturally noteworthy residential and com- mercial buildings, including the Carroll County Courthouse. Antique stores, shops and restaurants dot this charming area.
Riley-City Trail – 1.5 mile
Between a point on the North End Trail to a junction with the Interurban Trail, this urban trail runs past many architecturally significant homes in Delphi and through Riley Park, named for Hoosier poet James Whitcomb Riley. The trail follows along and crosses Deer Creek twice (once over a suspension bridge), and under State Road 25 into more of Riley Park.
Campbell Ridge Trail – 1 mile loop
Begin and end at a small parking area along the west side of State Road 25, just south of Trailhead Park. A short hike up the slope reveals a high bluff overlooking the confluence of Deer Creek and the Wabash River, at one time a “slack water” crossing for canal boats. The very last canal boat to reach this site in 1874 met an unfortunate end when it crashed into the rotting wooden spillway and collapsed the dam, dumping the boat, mules, driver and cargo into the Wabash.
Monon High Bridge Trail – 1.5 mile
Between City Park on East Main Street and High Bridge,
this trail traces along part of the abandoned Monon Railroad line. At the top of the slope, where Old Camden Road meets the railroad, is the Centennial Stone, dedicated to General Samuel Milroy, who platted Delphi in 1828. A mile beyond the highway overpass is High Bridge, Indiana’s second highest railroad trestle.
Pioneer Road Trail – (proposed)
Between Riley Park and Slate Bluff, along Deer Creek.
Interurban Extension Trail – (proposed) Following Deer Creek along the historic electric railway.
For more information, contact us at 765.564.6572 or visit www.wabashanderiecanal.org


BBM: “Delphi Limestone Company“?
ETA:

http://www.indmaa.org/external/wcpages/wcdirectory/results/results_mobile.aspx?keywords=delphi

U.S. Aggregates, Inc.-Delphi Plant
2195 W Highway 421 N
Delphi, IN 46923

Categories for IMAA Business - Indiana Mineral Aggregates Association | Carmel, IN

UIndy team continue excavation at Baum’s Landing site | Carroll County Comet

 

[margarita25]

Throughout 87 threads of discussion about this case, if the cause of death was by gunshot it’s been suggested people in the area would’ve been immediately been alerted of something amiss. I think that’s because we tend to brainstorm this crime relying on our own parameters of imagination, including the thought of hearing gunfire would prompt an immediate 911 call.

But I vaguely recall it mentioned by locals that hearing gunshots in the distance was not extraordinarily unusual nor would it cause immediate alarm.

A quirky coincidence of an incident occurring so close to the anniversary of the tragedy, that these men were legally hunting rabbits in February within Carroll County along an abandoned railway line would appear to support that point as well.

Carroll County man injured while hunting

“Officer Jarred Coffing determined the three hunters were legally hunting and were wearing the required orange clothing.“

(Just noting the orange clothing)

 

[ab01]

I almost have begun to think that it’s possible or even likely BG didn’t park and start at the cemetery or that hb trailhead. I think the multiple witnesses almost leads me to believe that he started at one of the larger more trafficked trailheads and walk down the trails to the high bridge. When the deed was done, he hiked back down the trail like nothing happened. I think it’s possible that one of the sightings may even be when he was hiking back after the crime moo

 

[morf13]

morf13, how are you an insider on the GSK and Zodiac killer??

Because I have worked with family members of the victims, survivors, and investigators in the cases

 

[MistyWaters]

“Officer Jarred Coffing determined the three hunters were legally hunting and were wearing the required orange clothing.“

(Just noting the orange clothing)

Good point. And hunting is not allowed within the trail system and I don’t know the regulations for shooting on private land. I wouldn’t believe the girls were both accidentally shot for a moment - my only point was why the sound of distant gunshots may not have been cause for alarm to others walking the trails on the other side of the bridge.

 

[ab01]

Good point. And hunting is not allowed within the trail system and I don’t know the regulations for shooting on private land. I wouldn’t believe the girls were both accidentally shot for a moment - my only point was why the sound of distant gunshots may not have been cause for alarm to others walking the trails on the other side of the bridge.

The trail system is surrounded by private lands. Also hunting on private land is at the permission of the land owner and hunters must also follow state wildlife hunting rules and regulations....moo

 

[ab01]

I live in rural Ohio and honestly the first thing I think of when I hear gunshots is, oh somebody must be hunting. I’m not sure I’d ever hear gun shots and instantly think oh god what just happened. Living in the rural country is just a different perspective compared to living in cities for many people. Moo

 

[mtnlites]

I live in rural Ohio and honestly the first thing I think of when I hear gunshots is, oh somebody must be hunting. I’m not sure I’d ever hear gun shots and instantly think oh god what just happened. Living in the rural country is just a different perspective compared to living in cities for many people. Moo

Same here. I hear gunshots every day, but we haven't had a murder-by-gun death in this area (as in the immediate vicinity, not in the county) in years. I'd just assume someone was target practicing or hunting. Maybe running off some coyotes.

 

[Deathsgrandaughter]

Same here. I hear gunshots every day, but we haven't had a murder-by-gun death in this area (as in the immediate vicinity, not in the county) in years. I'd just assume someone was target practicing or hunting. Maybe running off some coyotes.

Same. I'm in rural Wales and gunshot is not that unusual from pheasant shoots. I don't think twice when I hear it.