Found Deceased UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen getting into taxi outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #9 *ARREST*

[CoverMeCagney]

He works as a butcher, would that complicate the smell?

I found this (jesus - the stuff I am googling on this case...)

While there can be other smells that could mislead cadaver dogs.... the main concern for police and handlers is the scent of animal remains. Some handlers train their dogs using pig remains due to the difficulty and hazards of getting human remains . This is unfortunate because cadaver dogs can smell the difference between human remains and pig remains, despite the biological similarities between humans and pigs .

In fact, when looking at the similarities between the chemicals emitted from human remains and those of three other animals (pig, cow, and chicken), it was the chicken’s mix of chemicals that was closest to those of human remains and the pig was the least similar

Cadaver Dogs - Can Dogs Smell Death?

 

[Sarahjo]

Even if he wrapped her body in carpet/bin bags and put her wrapped up in that way the scent of a decomposing body would still be picked up by the cadaver dogs when his car was checked out, there is no way her dead body was ever in any part of his car. If it had been then he would be nailed on to be charged with murder by now

The only possibilities are that he dumped her in the area he killed her and by good fortune for him she hasn’t been found or that a different vehicle to his was used to transport her body out of the city or wherever

Or she could have been transported out of the city while still alive so no decomposing body scent...maybe she was just unconscious

 

[Strontium69]

He works as a butcher, would that complicate the smell?

I don't actually know but I would very much doubt it? Other people being around don't confuse a cadaver dog, so wont it be able to smell the difference between pork and human?

It's the other end of that thought that induced the true horror for me early on... I just cling on to the hope that with it being a specific bacon factory and not just generic meat products, it might mean that that isn't actually an option for disposing of a body. Not like working at a dog food canning plant that would likely have large hoppers that entire carcasses can be thrown in and down into a giant mincer.

 

[yoyo1]

He could have tied her up...knocked her out.. any manner of things really.

Yes if Libby screamed , PR could very well have subdued her , tied her up and that location beng comprimised by her noise he then moved to another more private location more suitable to his purposes. Altho the fact the police have continually focused on the one wellesley/oak park area would indicate that his car isnt detected going anywhere else within the eye of cctv in the critical timeframe.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

But what role in things does how long the body has been dead for play.
Its one thing to say a cadaver dog can detect if an old rotting corpse has been place somewhere for 2 minutes but is the same true if a freshly dead body is placed somewhere for 2 minutes or half an hour.

The test I mentioned used a body that had been dead for under 3 hours, another poster mentions 1.5 hours. Would be interesting to know what the minimum "freshness" would be.

 

[Quintet]

I thought there wasn't a consensus on this and there are many variables - such as body size, temperature and how the dogs are trained. So the studies show that some dogs can sometimes pick up a scent very quickly but there's no way you can confirm that with every lot of dogs.

Please don’t laugh at me, but, would the fact he works at a pig abattoir and that he may have scent of recently deceased porky pig on him regularly, interfere with scents in say his vehicle or on his clothing? I thought these dogs were often trained with pigs as similar to a human. Perhaps I’ve dreamt this! Forgive me!

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Please don’t laugh at me, but, would the fact he works at a pig abattoir and that he may have scent of recently deceased porky pig on him regularly, interfere with scents in say his vehicle or on his clothing? I thought these dogs were often trained with pigs as similar to a human. Perhaps I’ve dreamt this! Forgive me!

See my post from 10 mins ago - dogs can definitely differentiate between humans and pigs.

 

[Deckard]

This is probably a stretch - but I know other people have referred to other cases where the suspect was released and then kept under surveillance and led LE to the body. Obviously, that can't happen with PR because he's been remanded in custody - but the police have said that they're doing a lot of "behind the scenes" work now. Is it possible that LE do think that someone else was involved and they know who might be involved, but they've not arrested them (or maybe they did and then let them go, and just not told the media or public) and are keeping them under surveillance, watching to see if they keep going back to a certain area where LS could be?

Just a personal theory.

I thought that the last LE press conference mentioning "one" man rather than "a" man was the hint posters were alluding to ie could be more than one POI?

The frogmarch idea into the park on a cold night seems like a palaver for want of a better word. Especially to the far end away from Oak Rd where the witness heard screams. Assault in the car would make more sense, if it took place, especially as the passenger was wearing a skirt and possibly no jacket.

 

[Quintet]

He returns to burgle a house on Ventnor Av at the end of Jan.

It closed from the 1st January, re-opened on the 21st January. So, that fits in pretty well.

 

[Quintet]

See my post from 10 mins ago - dogs can definitely differentiate between humans and pigs.

Marvellous!

 

[Newthoughts]

Yes I have a lot of sympathy with this, have thought this for a long time. Wonder what the car told them?

It almost seems like they have 2 and 2 but can't quite put them together to make 4, something very crucial missing.

For me that is another person - for me that is the only way to explain Libby's disappearance WITHOUT TRACE when the Police have the last person known to have seen her alive? And they can't get a confession, nothing from the car, his phone, or anything from the house or his person that gives any clue as to her whereabouts?

That does not sound like an opportunist just grabbing a sudden opportunity! I know he would have planned this to some extent, if he was engaged in stalking activity, but for a lone operator, of such a young age, potentially his first physical assault type of crime; and he's evaded all the forensics, left no trace of him or Libby in the park, out-foxed the cadaver dog, and all on a night when you would look out and expect yourself to be leaving footprints and car tracks in the snow?

I don't think he 'planned' for killing or disposing of Libby. I think a mixture of his escalation, bravado, and possibly drugs, meant he had only planned up to and including getting physical with Libby or another girl that night; in his psychological disposition he has become so fixated, tunnel visioned, in the hour or so leading up to contact with Libby, that once at and beyond that stage, he has no plan.

Which is where I am going round in circles... which is why I am convinced there had to be a second person involved.

I said this earlier up the thread - but I see this as almost 2 separate crimes;
1) PR's assault on LS, events surrounding which are categorised by and within his behaviour.
2) The disappearance of Libby; this is why so many people still stick to the theory that PR actually had nothing to do with her disappearance. The disappearance half of the incident is of a different character to the first half of the incident; namely PR and his contact/interaction with LS.

So EITHER - his role is as he has said; maybe he intended to stalk her and try it on with her, but never to actually force himself on her? Maybe he left it at that, she got out, he drove off... AND now she is 'abducted' by someone who may or may not exist with ZERO clues and ZERO trace

Or - he 'accidentally' killed her; and he either borrowed someone's car and drove her away from the city, or he had help...

There is a huge piece missing here, obviously I know given she herself is mysteriously missing. But PRs involvement does not make full sense from beginning to end IF YOU FOLLOW THE SCENARIO THROUGH.

It doesn't make sense unless he did plan for killing or hiding and disposal. That has to be a consideration. To be abducted by one creepy individual, get away and then be abducted by another doesn't seem likely statistically. Especially given how cold it was. Not a night to be out on the off chance. He's cool and confident. The police must have good evidence to charge him with the other offences yet he pleads not guilty.

 

[jessie]

The test I mentioned used a body that had been dead for under 3 hours, another poster mentions 1.5 hours. Would be interesting to know what the minimum "freshness" would be.

I can find some text later (excuse me) but trained dogs are known to detect a fresh corpse within 10 minutes of death.

 

[Strontium69]

It has always niggled me about the burglary/voyeurism charges.

I have always PR was picked up due to his car, possibly due to some CCTV, being in the area. And that once they searched his house, they then found stuff.

They immediately charged him with voyeurism and burglary.

Well, okay, how did they know?

They seized his laptop/phone when they first arrested him looking for Libby, and found something else, possibly or possibly not connected to Libby.

Okay, but what in detail? I assumed he had taken video of himself, but I could only relate that to the incident at Wellesley.

So how did the Police know, as soon as they opened his life, that he had been burgling and voyeuring on his neighbours?

The full charges put to Pawel Relowicz were :

• Between December 7 and December 10, 2017, you entered as a trespasser to a property in Raglan Street and stoke therein of a value unknown three vibrators
• On January 19, 2019 you committed an act outraging public decency by behaving in an indecent manner by masturbating in a public place
• Between December 1 and December 4, 2017, in Hull, namely Lambton Street, you entered as a trespasser and stoke therein a PlayStation 4 console, a controller and £25 in cash
• Between January 25 and January 28, 2019, you entered as a trespasser in Ventnor Street and stole a computer laptop, a Kindle, a speaker, a quantity of sex toys, condoms, knickers and photographs
• On January 23, 2018, in Estuary Street you observed another person doing a private act know that person did not consent to being observed for your sexual gratification

Incidentally, I know of no Estuary Street in Hull??

How did they know these dates historically, going back 2 years? Did they fit him for burglaries previously reported? I wondered about someone having a theory that he knew an estate agent so was able to get some kind of key to these properties. Was he perhaps involved with planting mini cameras and bugging student houses? Just a thought... may or may not have any relevance, although Police have always stated ZERO relevance.

 

[London1776]

Hi everyone. Interesting to read all of the views and local knowledge. Great website. As I’m unfamiliar with the area, could a local please explain the likelihood of this being a tragic accident, given the city’s extensive drain network, however small this likelihood might be?

Could this explain the lack of forensics or relevant charges to any individuals, the limited appeals for information, and the police’s focus on searching the waterways? Could an accident also match with reports of screams being heard?

Not ruling out anyone else’s theories but interested to know

 

[CoverMeCagney]

It has always niggled me about the burglary/voyeurism charges.

I have always PR was picked up due to his car, possibly due to some CCTV, being in the area. And that once they searched his house, they then found stuff.

They immediately charged him with voyeurism and burglary.

Well, okay, how did they know?

They seized his laptop/phone when they first arrested him looking for Libby, and found something else, possibly or possibly not connected to Libby.

Okay, but what in detail? I assumed he had taken video of himself, but I could only relate that to the incident at Wellesley.

So how did the Police know, as soon as they opened his life, that he had been burgling and voyeuring on his neighbours?

The full charges put to Pawel Relowicz were :

• Between December 7 and December 10, 2017, you entered as a trespasser to a property in Raglan Street and stoke therein of a value unknown three vibrators
• On January 19, 2019 you committed an act outraging public decency by behaving in an indecent manner by masturbating in a public place
• Between December 1 and December 4, 2017, in Hull, namely Lambton Street, you entered as a trespasser and stoke therein a PlayStation 4 console, a controller and £25 in cash
• Between January 25 and January 28, 2019, you entered as a trespasser in Ventnor Street and stole a computer laptop, a Kindle, a speaker, a quantity of sex toys, condoms, knickers and photographs
• On January 23, 2018, in Estuary Street you observed another person doing a private act know that person did not consent to being observed for your sexual gratification

Incidentally, I know of no Estuary Street in Hull??

How did they know these dates historically, going back 2 years? Did they fit him for burglaries previously reported? I wondered about someone having a theory that he knew an estate agent so was able to get some kind of key to these properties. Was he perhaps involved with planting mini cameras and bugging student houses? Just a thought... may or may not have any relevance, although Police have always stated ZERO relevance.

Wasn't it Edgecumbe Street?

 

[Mamamiamaria]

The test I mentioned used a body that had been dead for under 3 hours, another poster mentions 1.5 hours. Would be interesting to know what the minimum "freshness" would be.

Human decomposition starts at around 4 minutes after death. Obviously it takes quite some time for humans to be able to smell it. As I understand things, a lot will depend on the conditions in which the body is kept. Many dogs are now trained on pseudo scents that are available for purchase and not trained with animal scent. In fact I believe there are some dogs trained in the United States at the FBI Body Farm so they are using real scent.

I think a lot will depend on the training the dogs receive and their handler but there have been studies where the dogs have signalled within less than ten minutes.

I find this fascinating, our doggie friends are truly wonderful creatures.

 

[Strontium69]

Wasn't it Edgecumbe Street?

Makes sense...

But I did wonder about the voyeurism charges. At first, I thought it may be only the streets to the front and back of his house, therefore he had been spying on them from his own window, possibly videoed which is how the Police caught him.

But these aren't the most ideal streets for voyeurism are they? You have to be right on the street, looking right into the house, very noticeable, even when sat in a car. Maybe he spotted it and filmed it on his phone as a random opportunity?


Or maybe the voyeurism charge is where the Police discovered via his laptop/phone that he had bugged that house with a secret camera? It is a stretch - but if he knew an estate agent, and was working with another person/a team to get camera bugs into student houses?

This was from 2011, when the technology was new.
Samokovareva finds hidden cameras in every room in her and Dzhambazova's apartment | Daily Mail Online

2017
Student horrified to find hidden CAMERA and microphone in women's loo

Shocked Student Finds Spy Camera Hidden Inside Travelodge Shower

It is stretching the length of the rabbit hole a bit, and is moving away from direct relevance to Libby's disappearance, and is just my whacko theory... up there with the trafficking theory.

But it would explain how he is not entirely acting alone, and may be involved in a much bigger and deeper gang, if this is something ran via the internet and joined with other locations around Europe?

All it would take (still a lot I know) would be to have some decent access within a small estate agents that deals exclusively with students.

 

[Quintet]

Is it possible Libby got back in (or was put back in) the car alive, but maybe unconscious? That would mean any forensics on the car would still seem legit, assuming he has already admitted she was his passenger.

He could have taken her anywhere.

He could. I hope the park searches and focus are not just based on screams that were not reported until later and the on the fact that he or his sister said he was intending to or did take her home. I hope the police have further cctv or proof that that was the direction that LS was taken, either by PR or someone else.

 

[Newthoughts]

It has always niggled me about the burglary/voyeurism charges.

I have always PR was picked up due to his car, possibly due to some CCTV, being in the area. And that once they searched his house, they then found stuff.

They immediately charged him with voyeurism and burglary.

Well, okay, how did they know?

They seized his laptop/phone when they first arrested him looking for Libby, and found something else, possibly or possibly not connected to Libby.

Okay, but what in detail? I assumed he had taken video of himself, but I could only relate that to the incident at Wellesley.

So how did the Police know, as soon as they opened his life, that he had been burgling and voyeuring on his neighbours?

The full charges put to Pawel Relowicz were :

• Between December 7 and December 10, 2017, you entered as a trespasser to a property in Raglan Street and stoke therein of a value unknown three vibrators
• On January 19, 2019 you committed an act outraging public decency by behaving in an indecent manner by masturbating in a public place
• Between December 1 and December 4, 2017, in Hull, namely Lambton Street, you entered as a trespasser and stoke therein a PlayStation 4 console, a controller and £25 in cash
• Between January 25 and January 28, 2019, you entered as a trespasser in Ventnor Street and stole a computer laptop, a Kindle, a speaker, a quantity of sex toys, condoms, knickers and photographs
• On January 23, 2018, in Estuary Street you observed another person doing a private act know that person did not consent to being observed for your sexual gratification

Incidentally, I know of no Estuary Street in Hull??

How did they know these dates historically, going back 2 years? Did they fit him for burglaries previously reported? I wondered about someone having a theory that he knew an estate agent so was able to get some kind of key to these properties. Was he perhaps involved with planting mini cameras and bugging student houses? Just a thought... may or may not have any relevance, although Police have always stated ZERO relevance.

Re the keys - he lived in Raglan road. There are Unicom (student letting agencies) offices directly opposite that in Newlands avenue.

 

[Deleted member 238128]

It has always niggled me about the burglary/voyeurism charges.

I have always PR was picked up due to his car, possibly due to some CCTV, being in the area. And that once they searched his house, they then found stuff.

They immediately charged him with voyeurism and burglary.

Well, okay, how did they know?

They seized his laptop/phone when they first arrested him looking for Libby, and found something else, possibly or possibly not connected to Libby.

Okay, but what in detail? I assumed he had taken video of himself, but I could only relate that to the incident at Wellesley.

So how did the Police know, as soon as they opened his life, that he had been burgling and voyeuring on his neighbours?

The full charges put to Pawel Relowicz were :

• Between December 7 and December 10, 2017, you entered as a trespasser to a property in Raglan Street and stoke therein of a value unknown three vibrators
• On January 19, 2019 you committed an act outraging public decency by behaving in an indecent manner by masturbating in a public place
• Between December 1 and December 4, 2017, in Hull, namely Lambton Street, you entered as a trespasser and stoke therein a PlayStation 4 console, a controller and £25 in cash
• Between January 25 and January 28, 2019, you entered as a trespasser in Ventnor Street and stole a computer laptop, a Kindle, a speaker, a quantity of sex toys, condoms, knickers and photographs
• On January 23, 2018, in Estuary Street you observed another person doing a private act know that person did not consent to being observed for your sexual gratification

Incidentally, I know of no Estuary Street in Hull??

How did they know these dates historically, going back 2 years? Did they fit him for burglaries previously reported? I wondered about someone having a theory that he knew an estate agent so was able to get some kind of key to these properties. Was he perhaps involved with planting mini cameras and bugging student houses? Just a thought... may or may not have any relevance, although Police have always stated ZERO relevance.

I think aswell as finding items reported as missing they have found recordings of his antics and God knows what else. I think it’s common for voyeurs and flashers to record their victims for later gratification. The photos that he stole are very incriminating. He could try and peddle that the other things were bought second hand but very difficult to explain being in possession of personal photos.