Deaths of Male College Students-General Discussion #6

[Eleanor Rigby]

Thanks for the link. I can't recall whether the Oxygen show covered that point, although I know for sure that the expert on GHB did not attribute the elevated levels to decomposition. But shows are edited, ya know?

What concerns me is that the video looks like Will is impaired and his blood alcohol did not account for that, nor as to why he would be so impaired as to walk to the water and fall in, when his ride was looking for him. Or for the destruction of his cell phone. And so on. So if he wasn't drunk, what had happened to him? And if it was GHB, how in hell did he ingest it? Hard to picture someone spiking a beer at a hockey game.

I agree with all your points. These cases are baffling, as the known facts and physical evidence doesn't add up logically. If that's not bad enough, the people--local, state and federal LE, coroners and medical examiners--who should have the ability and resources to properly investigate and provide answers, aren't doing so. I know that makes me sound like a "conspiracy nut," but sometimes there are conspiracies. The more and more cases there are, the more convinced I am that "something isn't right." What is going on, and why??? I feel so bad for the grieving parents who are basically told by LE and the general public to accept that their irresponsible son had a drunken accident and to move on. If something weird and suspicious like this were to happen to my son or daughter, I wouldn't be able to move on, either. I, too, would be fighting for answers and for the truth to come out. MOO.

 

[cnmccarthy]

I agree with all your points. These cases are baffling, as the known facts and physical evidence doesn't add up logically. If that's not bad enough, the people--local, state and federal LE, coroners and medical examiners--who should have the ability and resources to properly investigate and provide answers, aren't doing so. I know that makes me sound like a "conspiracy nut," but sometimes there are conspiracies. The more and more cases there are, the more convinced I am that "something isn't right." What is going on, and why??? I feel so bad for the grieving parents who are basically told by LE and the general public to accept that their irresponsible son had a drunken accident and to move on. If something weird and suspicious like this were to happen to my son or daughter, I wouldn't be able to move on, either. I, too, would be fighting for answers and for the truth to come out. MOO.

I agree with you 100%. Very well put.

 

[cnmccarthy]

Excellent point regarding prior to 1997, these disappearances and deaths were uncommon.

Excellent point regarding the deaths being in a certain location. If these were truly accidental deaths as LE claim, then they would be happening all over the US.

ETA: my apologies, meant to quote @Kip s post not yours!

 

[EmmaRose]

Excellent point regarding the deaths being in a certain location. If these were truly accidental deaths as LE claim, then they would be happening all over the US.

ETA: my apologies, meant to quote @Kip s post not yours!

Agree!!

 

[Eleanor Rigby]

I found an Oxygen app for iOS that allows free viewing of three full episodes! I just watched episodes three and four.

Some things I noticed in #3, the Hurley case, were that he had a moderately elevated GHB level (illustrated with a graph) and the tox expert mentioned "naturally occurring" low levels of GHB we all have, but did not mention that bacteria from decomposition increases GHB levels. While I believe, based on the other evidence, that he did ingest GHB, I think, for the sake of transparency and to avoid any appearance of bias, the investigators should have mentioned the link between decomposition and increased GHB levels. Another interesting aspect was the recovered text messages between Hurley and his GF. In the interview she gave, in which she discussed their texts that night, she doesn't mention Will being angry and very annoyed by the "kid" he was with, which I'd think would be worth mentioning under the circumstances. It was unclear to me whether he was with a "friend /co-worker" and ANOTHER man referred to as the "kid," or with just ONE man who was both the friend and the annoying "kid" he called a "tool" in one text. Either way, I think this man that he was having issues with should definitely be investigated. It was also interesting to find that his flip phone was "twisted" and damaged by human action before being run over.

In Brian's case, episode #4, the discrepancies between the length of time he was missing and the degree of decomposition of his body, as well as his low level of blood alcohol, coupled with extreme nausea and repeated vomiting, is very suspicious. However, what doesn't make sense to me, but was not addressed in the episode, is their belief that Brian was held for an extended period of time (over two months) due to the lack of decomposition, yet they are using the blood alcohol level found in his corpse 77 days later to claim he wasn't intoxicated enough to be violently ill and "jello-like" after leaving the bar. If he was held and died over two months later, how could his blood alcohol level at death possibly be indicative of his blood alcohol level on the night he disappeared? Am I missing something??? I don't see how both things can be claimed. Any ideas? The other interesting--but not surprising--finding was the lack of evidence of drowning. The "drowning men" are not drowning, so that negates the "drunk-and-accidentally-fell-in-the-water-and-drowned" theory that the majority of these cases are classified as.

In all four cases/ episodes, I believe the investigators have uncovered very compelling evidence to have the cases re-opened and properly investigated. Kudos to the Gary, Indiana detective for re-opening Brian's case and going to speak with his mother. I'm so disgusted that the PD's in Pittsburgh, Minneapolis and Boston did not immediately do the same. Don't all three still have the requests under consideration? MOO.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

I see that hole in the logic that you are talking about. Brian's companion said he was not intoxicated. But think how drunk someone would have to be to be that ill. The only time it ever happened to me was when I ingested shrimp at the same time I was drinking wine. Turns out I'm allergic. But I threw up (and worse) for 24 hours. If we work backwards, we can say that Brian's body was not in a state of decomposition consistent with 70+ days in Lake Michigan. If that's true, the question of how much he drank is moot and we can eliminate the usual "drank too much and fell into a body of water" explanation. We can come back at that issue another way, since Cyril Wecht said he didn't drown. So how did he get into the water?

And where was he for probably two months?

 

[Reachingfornettles]

Thanks for the link. I can't recall whether the Oxygen show covered that point, although I know for sure that the expert on GHB did not attribute the elevated levels to decomposition. But shows are edited, ya know?

What concerns me is that the video looks like Will is impaired and his blood alcohol did not account for that, nor as to why he would be so impaired as to walk to the water and fall in, when his ride was looking for him. Or for the destruction of his cell phone. And so on. So if he wasn't drunk, what had happened to him? And if it was GHB, how in hell did he ingest it? Hard to picture someone spiking a beer at a hockey game.

They come in cups I do believe...very easy to walk through and drop a cap full. JMO in my own experience being drugged, I was at a bar by the river and ended up only remembering bits and pieces of the night. I remember being at a dock crying for no reason, walking back to the bar...that was it. I ended up getting the recording from that night from the bar owner and I had one drink. Sat it down once. I knew who did it. What I'm saying is that it is just a little bit and if they are looking to dose you they'll find a way. I myself feel it's a hate group, growing state to state.

 

[Eleanor Rigby]

I see that hole in the logic that you are talking about. Brian's companion said he was not intoxicated. But think how drunk someone would have to be to be that ill. The only time it ever happened to me was when I ingested shrimp at the same time I was drinking wine. Turns out I'm allergic. But I threw up (and worse) for 24 hours. If we work backwards, we can say that Brian's body was not in a state of decomposition consistent with 70+ days in Lake Michigan. If that's true, the question of how much he drank is moot and we can eliminate the usual "drank too much and fell into a body of water" explanation. We can come back at that issue another way, since Cyril Wecht said he didn't drown. So how did he get into the water?

And where was he for probably two months?

Nobody but the ones responsible for Brian's death know where he was for those supposed two months, but we do know that during that time he metabolized the alcohol he consumed the night he disappeared! Another omission in the Smiley Face investigations, in addition to omitting that GHB becomes elevated during decomposition, was their omission of the scientific fact that sometimes alcohol is produced during decomposition. Again, as with the GHB issue, I don't understand the complicated science, I just understand enough to know it happens. Thus, I was disappointed in the way that fact was ignored, and instead it was presented that his autopsy blood alcohol level, no matter when during the previous 77 days he had died, would be the same as when he left the bar. It's not too hard for viewers to understand that the low level of alcohol in Brian's body detected in the postmortem testing could have been produced after his death. Everybody knows that the alcohol he drank on the night he disappeared would not still be in his body some two months later, if, as they contend, that is when he was killed. Who has ever gotten a two-month buzz from one night of drinking??? However, the issue of the various types of alcohol and their origins does get complicated, I admit, for those of us without much science education (Geology 101 is not helping me here). PittsburghGirl, you're totally right about the editing of the program--we don't know what the interviewed experts may have said about the alcohol and GHB issues that was conveniently "left on the cutting room floor." The article cited at the end of this rant explains the science of postmortem alcohol production. Maybe sleuthers with science backgrounds can weigh in.

I'm disappointed in the investigators' spin of the evidence because I think ignoring these important facts really hurts their cause, and the Oxygen series could be an important opportunity to raise public awareness, which in turn could lead to public pressure for LE, ME's and coroners to stop covering up these homicides as accidental deaths. MOO.

Abstract
Blood alcohol (ethanol) concentrations in decomposed bodies can mean drinking during life and/or endogenous production after death. The correct interpretation is important in medicolegal cases. This retrospective study of 286 autopsied medical examiner cases was undertaken to evaluate alcohol concentrations and distribution in various fluids and tissues in decomposed bodies. Cases with alcohol present were classified as endogenous production, ingestion, or unable to determine based upon one or more of the following criteria: the presence of ethanol in only one of more than one body fluids, an atypical distribution of ethanol in body fluids, reliable scene or historical information, the presence of C3 alcohols in body fluids. Alcohol was classified as endogenously produced in 55 cases. The presence of alcohol was attributed to ingestion in 130 cases. No alcohol was detected in 39 cases. We were unable to determine the source of the remaining 62 alcohol concentrations.
Alcohol in decomposed bodies: postmortem synthesis and distribution. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[Eleanor Rigby]

Someone else?

University of Minnesota student reported missing

It would appear he has been found, as all "Missing" posts asking for help have been removed. I certainly hope that is the case.

Andrew was last seen driving his car, which is unlike the "drowning men" cases where the victims were last seen leaving a bar or party venue on foot after drinking.

I believe this new case has circumstances more closely fitting the "drowning men" / "river killers" victim profile and circumstances. MOO.
FL - FL- Matthew Robineau, 21, Melbourne, 10 Feb 2019

 

[Kip]

...In all four cases/ episodes, I believe the investigators have uncovered very compelling evidence to have the cases re-opened and properly investigated. Kudos to the Gary, Indiana detective for re-opening Brian's case and going to speak with his mother. I'm so disgusted that the PD's in Pittsburgh, Minneapolis and Boston did not immediately do the same. Don't all three still have the requests under consideration? MOO.

Yes, I'm glad the Gary, Indiana, detective is reopening the case. However, as the crime was initiated in Chicago, I don't foresee him making much progress. The FBI really needs to get involved in these cases.

I wonder if any of the other cities will reopen investigations after reviewing the evidence. After these episodes aired, I imagine there must have been at least a bit of public pressure to do so.

It is interesting that the victims are pretty much all college students. If young men were universally getting drunk and falling into water, you'd expect more variation in the backgrounds of the victims.

 

[Eleanor Rigby]

Matthew Robineau, whom I mentioned in a post here yesterday, was found today--deceased in the Indian River. Apparently, after a night out with friends in downtown Melbourne, FL, he walked over a causeway to the river. I'll be very interested to see the cause and manner of death, if they are made public. (Link at end of post.)

Reachingfornettles: After reading the article on Matthew, I immediately thought of the incident you related in your post on the previous page of this thread:
"JMO in my own experience being drugged, I was at a bar by the river and ended up only remembering bits and pieces of the night. I remember being at a dock crying for no reason, walking back to the bar...that was it. I ended up getting the recording from that night from the bar owner and I had one drink."

First, let me say how glad I am that you did not go off that dock and into the river! Thank you for sharing your story.

Second, your terrifying experience seems to have similarities to quite a few of the deaths of the "Drowning Men," IMO. Many of the victims inexplicably walked away from a bar and headed off into the night in a direction that made no sense to the people they were with, nor to the family and friends who knew them well. It's really strange that so many victims headed to a body of water! Do you happen to remember if you were on your phone when you walked to the dock on the river? Your experience, and the case of Zach Marr for one, remind me of the few details known about Matthew's case. I wish there was some way for survivors, such as you, to be able to recall what compelled them to go to a river or other body of water. Anyone have any idea what drug causes that reaction?

I've thought for a while that there may be more than one thing going on that might account for the number of victims recovered from water. Some, like the cases being investigated on the Oxygen series, are pretty clearly victims of homocides, who were deceased before being placed in water. Others, in which the victims did actually die from drowning, are much more mysterious and hard to explain, which likely accounts for them being classified as suicides or accidents. Entering the water while under the influence of a drug that one did not knowingly or willingly ingest, and also possibly under the control of another individual, is NOT an accident NOR a suicide. It's murder! All JMO.

Police: Missing Brevard County Man Found Dead in Indian River

 

[IHAVENOCLUE]

I have been intrigued with these "so called" "Smiley Face Killers" cases for years...

though... And as others have pointed out... I don't think the graffiti is really a marker anymore...

The mystery of a certain demographics of young, adult, fairly successful males ending up deceased in bodies of water is just TOO coincidental to remain not investigated...

I read through parts of this great "collection" of cases...
And the connected comments and questions...

A question I had NOT thought of before...
Which I also believe to be quite compelling...
Is that these cases seemed not to exist...
Or at least in such great numbers...
Prior to a certain year(s)...(was it 1996?)...

Good work Sleuthers!

 

[IHAVENOCLUE]

Extensive corresponding article to the Oxygen series:
Is a Serial-Killer Gang Murdering Young Men Across the U.S.?

I wish to commend these investigators who are dedicating so much effort to uncover the truth behind this mysterious "epidemic"....
Especially as they are confronted with resistance at so very many organizational... (Governmental?)... Levels!

 

[Kip]

In this latest episode about the death of Thomas Booth, it definitely appears to be a case of murder and not an accident. But the smiley-face link seems tenuous as the group of "friends" he hung out with apparently had a motive for killing him. As far as I know, this is different from the other suspected smiley-face cases. Also, the smiley face they said was painted on the back of the bar seemed pretty abstract - I had trouble recognizing it as a smiley face.

 

[Reachingfornettles]

Matthew Robineau, whom I mentioned in a post here yesterday, was found today--deceased in the Indian River. Apparently, after a night out with friends in downtown Melbourne, FL, he walked over a causeway to the river. I'll be very interested to see the cause and manner of death, if they are made public. (Link at end of post.)

Reachingfornettles: After reading the article on Matthew, I immediately thought of the incident you related in your post on the previous page of this thread:
"JMO in my own experience being drugged, I was at a bar by the river and ended up only remembering bits and pieces of the night. I remember being at a dock crying for no reason, walking back to the bar...that was it. I ended up getting the recording from that night from the bar owner and I had one drink."

First, let me say how glad I am that you did not go off that dock and into the river! Thank you for sharing your story.

Second, your terrifying experience seems to have similarities to quite a few of the deaths of the "Drowning Men," IMO. Many of the victims inexplicably walked away from a bar and headed off into the night in a direction that made no sense to the people they were with, nor to the family and friends who knew them well. It's really strange that so many victims headed to a body of water! Do you happen to remember if you were on your phone when you walked to the dock on the river? Your experience, and the case of Zach Marr for one, remind me of the few details known about Matthew's case. I wish there was some way for survivors, such as you, to be able to recall what compelled them to go to a river or other body of water. Anyone have any idea what drug causes that reaction?

I've thought for a while that there may be more than one thing going on that might account for the number of victims recovered from water. Some, like the cases being investigated on the Oxygen series, are pretty clearly victims of homocides, who were deceased before being placed in water. Others, in which the victims did actually die from drowning, are much more mysterious and hard to explain, which likely accounts for them being classified as suicides or accidents. Entering the water while under the influence of a drug that one did not knowingly or willingly ingest, and also possibly under the control of another individual, is NOT an accident NOR a suicide. It's murder! All JMO.

Police: Missing Brevard County Man Found Dead in Indian River

Thank you....me too! (It caused years of problems for me because of who did it and how I got home?,!?) I remember when I became aware again (only for a moment) that I was honestly freaked out that I was on the dock. There is minimal lighting , not to mention extremely old docks and I'm night blind, it scared me because I was alone and crying and didn't know why...so headed back in the bar...I can only figure that my body and brain were subconsciously aware that something wasn't right...was I sad? No was I angry? ...not that I can reason. I was raised on Lake Erie and on a swampy canal. I love water it's calming. I love the night air, by the water tho not at the bar that I was at ...it stinks due to Edison and Ford plants on the river. So was my body trying to calm itself by doing what I love? I'm an introvert so I would run away from the crowd, but i was scared so I ran back.
Like in the case with Nick Wilson, he was in a fight and was kicked out of the bar his girlfriend worked at on New Years Eve. I don't think he was a fighter by looking at him. I think the perp would be able to instigate something very easily to create chaos for the Victim. Normal feelings aren't normal and reason ability out the window as with me. Still bothers me I can't recall but I watched myself in the video saying " I don't know that person and I don't dance like that!" So what does this GHB drug do exactly.... GHB Drug: Effects, Hazards & Methods of Abuse - Drugs.com

 

[EmmaRose]

These disappearances and drowning deaths have resonated with me for years now.

I can't help but think that our best and brightest are being taken. Maybe a clue lies within who would want to do that.

Bars should be restricted by law for throwing a customer out into the cold night. I wonder how many of these victims would still be alive today if someone had simply called them a taxi. So tragic.

It is worrisome that these deaths are dismissed so quickly as accidental drownings. There's just too many of them.... It doesn't seem to matter what city or state, LE reach the same conclusion over and over again. Why?

I pray we will find the answer to who is responsible and get them off the streets.

 

[IHAVENOCLUE]

Could Martin Gutierrez, of Austin, TX, be placed in this thread?

Link:

Found Deceased - TX - Martin Gutierrez, 25, Austin, Travis County, 19 Nov 2018

 

[Eleanor Rigby]

Could Martin Gutierrez, of Austin, TX, be placed in this thread?

Link:

Found Deceased - TX - Martin Gutierrez, 25, Austin, Travis County, 19 Nov 2018

It sounds to me like the circumstances in Martin's case are similar enough to those of the others for it to qualify. What is causing so many of these young men inexplicably to wander toward water? I've never heard of "date rape drugs" nor alcohol having this effect, but maybe they do??? @Reachingfornettles posted above in her frightening account that she doesn't have any memory of how or why she ended up on a dock after being drugged at a bar. I absolutely do not buy the "felt compelled to walk far away/ far off his route to pee in a body of water and fell in and drowned" explanation. That's almost ALWAYS the LE explanation. @Reachingfornettles, do you think maybe you went to the dock to pee? MOO.

 

[Reachingfornettles]

It sounds to me like the circumstances in Martin's case are similar enough to those of the others for it to qualify. What is causing so many of these young men inexplicably to wander toward water? I've never heard of "date rape drugs" nor alcohol having this effect, but maybe they do??? @Reachingfornettles posted above in her frightening account that she doesn't have any memory of how or why she ended up on a dock after being drugged at a bar. I absolutely do not buy the "felt compelled to walk far away/ far off his route to pee in a body of water and fell in and drowned" explanation. That's almost ALWAYS the LE explanation. @Reachingfornettles, do you think maybe you went to the dock to pee? MOO.

I'm cracking up...thank you...no. I do feel that if the boys that went in the water that they may snap out of it for a moment and get out of the water. As I watched myself in the video, it's not like I wasn't acting human I was just doing things I wouldn't normally do, talking to people I usually wouldn't approach.. And moving very slowly. Two things that would work against anyone that has a perpetrator lurking. It's our natural instinct to try not to drown and we are talking athletic boys. They most always pee standing up am I right. Unless it's a dose that knocks them out I'm thinking... I wasn't knocked out, just don't remember and nothing made sense. JMO

 

[IHAVENOCLUE]

It sounds to me like the circumstances in Martin's case are similar enough to those of the others for it to qualify. What is causing so many of these young men inexplicably to wander toward water? I've never heard of "date rape drugs" nor alcohol having this effect, but maybe they do??? @Reachingfornettles posted above in her frightening account that she doesn't have any memory of how or why she ended up on a dock after being drugged at a bar. I absolutely do not buy the "felt compelled to walk far away/ far off his route to pee in a body of water and fell in and drowned" explanation. That's almost ALWAYS the LE explanation. @Reachingfornettles, do you think maybe you went to the dock to pee? MOO.

I agree with all your points here, Eleanor Rigby...
ESPECIALLY in light of the news article in Martin's thread that a doctor has seen an unsettling rise in patients coming to ER for the effects of mysterious drugs being placed in their drinks...(or from some where)...