Found Deceased UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #11 *ARREST*

[Newthoughts]

She lived on the same road as where an attack had took place not many days earlier....I think she would probably have been aware.

As far as I'm aware the students were not made aware of specific threats. If it wasn't a student that witnessed that event she wouldn't have known

 

[Cherwell]

Be aware all the time of your safety and your awareness of your surroundings.

Yes.

Not victim blaming by the way she should have been able to go anywhere in any state without harm coming to her but that is not the world we live in

But here I disagree. Look at the number of young drunks (usually men but sometimes women too) who fall into water and die. You can't blame the water for being there. The bottom line is it's stupid to get so drunk that you are not in control of yourself. People are sometimes responsible for their own misfortunes, and I don't think it's helpful to pretend otherwise.

 

[Joolz1975]

Yes.

But here I disagree. Look at the number of young drunks (usually men but sometimes women too) who fall into water and die. You can't blame the water for being there. The bottom line is it's stupid to get so drunk that you are not in control of yourself. People are sometimes responsible for their own misfortunes, and I don't think it's helpful to pretend otherwise.

I get your point.. I meant more when harm comes to someone at the hands of someone else (whether drunk or not drunk).

But I do agree we all have to take some responsibility for actions and the situations we put ourselves in.

But i do think the ultimate blame lies with the one who harmed her (If of course he did).

I wonder if it would have been attempted if she wasn't so vulnerable.

There's another missing girl who was just on her way to work when she went missing so if it's foul play it happened even when she hadn't put herself in a vulnerable position by drinking.

I put myself in vulnerable positions all the time when I'm out walking my dog, darkly lit places and things don't know why I do it...should know better (and that's without a drink lol)

 

[Newthoughts]

Hello, another new member that's been lurking a while!
IMO LS is either in water, being held somewhere or was driven to another destination. Sorry for sounding obvious. Are the police able to retrospectively get number plate pings from vehicles? Or does the number plate need to be 'in the system' - so to speak - to flag up?

Also I'm sure the money from selling stolen goods would cover unofficial taxi driver earnings - to explain to his wife.

I believe the screams COULD be a red herring

What are the chances PR is a complete fantasist and she was never in his car? He made it all up. Therefore no forensics.

I can't help but cling to some hope that she's still alive.

Great website!

I cling to that hope but it's a tiny, tiny hope and highly unlikely. But it's there. I guess that's what drew lots of us here initially.

It's very likely that Libby was abducted by PR. It's 99.999% certain she's no longer alive.

But remember that bright young woman at the very beginning of her adult life has had her whole future brutally stolen. All her adventures, dreams, hopes - all her promise gone. She deserves justice for that.

Her parents have lost their precious first born, much loved child. They must be going through hell. They need her body to bury and grieve for. They need answers. They need closure. They need justice for her and them.

The police have a dangerous man in custody and only charges for so called minor crimes against him. If realeased I'm sure he'll kill again. So they need as much hard forensic and other evidence to lock him up.

So I guess that's why I'm staying here. Cos every discussion and kicking about of ideas keeps Libby in everyones mind. So if something crops up it'll be noticed and any seemingly trivial thing could trigger something important in someones mind that might help.

 

[Newthoughts]

Yes.

But here I disagree. Look at the number of young drunks (usually men but sometimes women too) who fall into water and die. You can't blame the water for being there. The bottom line is it's stupid to get so drunk that you are not in control of yourself. People are sometimes responsible for their own misfortunes, and I don't think it's helpful to pretend otherwise.

Completely different argument. Libby was nowhere near water. She was NOT responsible for what happened to her! PR and only PR holds that responsibility. Had she known about him she'd have been more cautious but he and he alone is responsible.

If it hadn't been Libby it would have been somebody else. Milly Dowler was snatched on her way home from school.

PR broke into houses. He could have done the same there if he'd found someone alone. My child has a job and walks home alone. She studies at the library because she wants a first. Are you saying nobody should ever be home alone, or work, or study. I believe any lone female was a target. Just a few seconds to snatch someone.

 

[Sera]

For those who may not have remembered, PR is due in court again one week today.

 

[Cherwell]

I get your point.. I meant more when harm comes to someone at the hands of someone else (whether drunk or not drunk).

But I do agree we all have to take some responsibility for actions and the situations we put ourselves in.

But i do think the ultimate blame lies with the one who harmed her (If of course he did).

I wonder if it would have been attempted if she wasn't so vulnerable.

There's another missing girl who was just on her way to work when she went missing so if it's foul play it happened even when she hadn't put herself in a vulnerable position by drinking.

I put myself in vulnerable positions all the time when I'm out walking my dog, darkly lit places and things don't know why I do it...should know better (and that's without a drink lol)

Yes, but what grates with me is the suggestion that people (read women) are entitled to go out and get absolutely paralytic without being at any kind of risk. I often see this reaction and it usually comes with a suggestion that to say anything else is "victim blaming" . These people put others at risk too though - e.g. they can wander out in front of a vehicle and ruin somebody else's life as well as their own.

 

[Cherwell]

Completely different argument. Libby was nowhere near water. She was NOT responsible for what happened to her! PR and only PR holds that responsibility. Had she known about him she'd have been more cautious but he and he alone is responsible.

See my comment above. And we don't yet know what happened to Libby. Nothing has yet been proved re PR.

 

[Joolz1975]

Yes, but what grates with me is the suggestion that people (read women) are entitled to go out and get absolutely paralytic without being at risk. I often see this reaction and it usually comes with a suggestion that to say anything else is "victim blaming" . These people put others at risk too though - e.g. they can wander out in front of a vehicle and ruin somebody else's life as well as their own.

Totally agree on that 100%.

I was just talking about coming to harm at the hands of others though.

But without a doubt I agree with you.

It's same as drunk drivers nobody makes them get behind the wheel spannered.

Everybody should be responsible for their own safety and take precautions.

In an ideal world they would

 

[Joolz1975]

Completely different argument. Libby was nowhere near water. She was NOT responsible for what happened to her! PR and only PR holds that responsibility. Had she known about him she'd have been more cautious but he and he alone is responsible.

If it hadn't been Libby it would have been somebody else. Milly Dowler was snatched on her way home from school.

PR broke into houses. He could have done the same there if he'd found someone alone. My child has a job and walks home alone. She studies at the library because she wants a first. Are you saying nobody should ever be home alone, or work, or study. I believe any lone female was a target. Just a few seconds to snatch someone.

Innocent until proven guilty...

You know no more than anyone else whether he was responsible or not.

Why not wait till his trial and let the jury hear all the evidence and let them decide.

It's the way the law works.

 

[Quintet]

Deleted

 

[JosieJo]

I don't think there is a particularly buoyant easily accessible market for fencing second hand sex toys.

It is a guess but would assume that part of the evidence they have against PR are the actual items that were stolen. So no money made.

Why is everyone so obsessed with him being an unofficial taxi driver?

There is absolutely no evidence that he was one.

People other than taxi drivers can offer someone a lift.

I'm not obsessed with the idea of him being a "taxi driver"...its a possibility like anything else but some possibilities do lend themselves to it

Had the press heard rumours in order to ask ?

A good reason to be out at night?

The spot he was in (if him) was prime for catching random fares at a bus stop on a freezing cold night

Nothing more than a possibility same as everything else

 

[Joolz1975]

[QUOTE="Newthoughts, post: 14881552, Leaving used condoms.
.

Deleted

 

[Zazie]

Yes, but what grates with me is the suggestion that people (read women) are entitled to go out and get absolutely paralytic without being at any kind of risk. I often see this reaction and it usually comes with a suggestion that to say anything else is "victim blaming" .

I think that suggestion needs placed in the context of centuries of - and indeed ongoing - victim blaming (read: female victims).

Wrong place, wrong clothes, wrong attitude and so on.

It's getting better but it's not been that many years since rape victims had zero chance of getting a conviction if they were the wrong kind of victim.

Drunks are a massive pain in the arse to deal with, but the only thing they deserve is a hangover. They are entirely entitled not to be raped/robbed/murdered. Suggesting otherwise IS indeed victim blaming, in my opinion, however well-intentioned.

That said, I appreciate predators are naturally attracted to the staggering drunk separated from the herd. It's a calculated risk we unfortunately have to take, because sometimes girls like to have fun - in the words of the great and melancholy Cyndi Lauper song.

 

[Cherwell]

I think that suggestion needs placed in the context of centuries of - and indeed ongoing - victim blaming (read: female victims).

Wrong place, wrong clothes, wrong attitude and so on.

It's getting better but it's not been that many years since rape victims had zero chance of getting a conviction if they were the wrong kind of victim.

Drunks are a massive pain in the arse to deal with, but the only thing they deserve is a hangover. They are entirely entitled not to be raped/robbed/murdered. Suggesting otherwise IS indeed victim blaming, in my opinion, however well-intentioned.

That said, I appreciate predators are naturally attracted to the staggering drunk separated from the herd. It's a calculated risk we unfortunately have to take, because sometimes girls like to have fun - in the words of the great and melancholy Cyndi Lauper song.

Yes, well I didn't mention rape, robbery or murder. Simply that there are other ways in which people can come to harm as a result of getting very drunk, and indeed put others at risk too. Therefore I think it should be discouraged and not excused.

 

[Newthoughts]

Yes, well I didn't mention rape, robbery or murder. Simply that there are other ways in which people can come to harm as a result of getting very drunk, and indeed put others at risk too. Therefore I think it should be discouraged and not excused.

She was only just 21. Hardly full of worldly wisdom and experience of drinking. It's possible she'd never been that drunk before. We've nearly all been there. She went out to have fun which she is entitled to do. She drank too much.

She did not get behind the wheel of a car. I doubt she ever would in that condition because she's of the generation that's been brought up not to drink and drive. She didn't go near water. She did not endanger anyone.

Her behaviour WAS discouraged- she was refused entry to a club she wanted to go to. She'd spent time getting ready to go to. Was looking forward to. If she hadn't come across some psychopath she'd have been further discouraged by a massive hangover

PR managed to drive around without attracting the attention of the police so we can assume he was NOT drunk. If he is guilty, and that is for the court to decide, he has caused considerably and deliberate harm to her, her family and her friends.

She was vulnerable because he, if guilty, was out prowling. She'd have been just as vulnerable if she'd been lying in her bed sober and he'd broken in. Or soberly walking back from the chip shop or library or any quiet dimly lit area. It was the person she came across that made her vulnerable. So do all females stop living because of the tiny minority of rapists and murderers?

The harm caused was deliberately caused. The person that caused it unlikely to be drunk. Even the lowest most selfish drunk driver doesn't set out to harm.

 

[Mollie123]

She was only just 21. Hardly full of worldly wisdom and experience of drinking. It's possible she'd never been that drunk before. We've nearly all been there. She went out to have fun which she is entitled to do. She drank too much.

She did not get behind the wheel of a car. I doubt she ever would in that condition because she's of the generation that's been brought up not to drink and drive. She didn't go near water. She did not endanger anyone.

Her behaviour WAS discouraged- she was refused entry to a club she wanted to go to. She'd spent time getting ready to go to. Was looking forward to. If she hadn't come across some psychopath she'd have been further discouraged by a massive hangover

PR managed to drive around without attracting the attention of the police so we can assume he was NOT drunk. If he is guilty, and that is for the court to decide, he has caused considerably and deliberate harm to her, her family and her friends.

She was vulnerable because he, if guilty, was out prowling. She'd have been just as vulnerable if she'd been lying in her bed sober and he'd broken in. Or soberly walking back from the chip shop or library or any quiet dimly lit area. It was the person she came across that made her vulnerable. So do all females stop living because of the tiny minority of rapists and murderers?

The harm caused was deliberately caused. The person that caused it unlikely to be drunk. Even the lowest most selfish drunk driver doesn't set out to harm.

Agree from the heart.

 

[Winterbells]

We don't know any details about what it was that made greybeard stop his car and check that Libby was ok do we? I'm now wondering if he saw her talking to a 'man' (not naming names here) and sensed that something wasn't quite right. The 'man' may then have wandered off (aka sat and had a *advertiser censored*) whilst waiting for greybeard to go away... and then returned to hassle Libby.
Also... since the police clearly don't mind appealing for witnesses who were around that night, it's odd that they haven't asked spiderman to come forward. I know others have already said this, but it does look like they know who spiderman is. Whether it's PR is another matter.

And lastly - I'm not sure why people are saying there was a gap in PR's alleged offending (ie. nothing in 2017). As far as I can make out the offences happened on the following dates:

Dec 4th 2017 (Monday) Theft of Playstation stuff and £25 Lambton Street
Jan 23 2018 (Tuesday) Voyeurism, Etstuary Street
Jan 19th 2019 (Sat) Masturbating in a public place (street?)
Jan 25th - 28th 2019 (Fri-Mon) Trespass, theft of laptop, kindle, speaker, sex toys, condoms and photographs. Ventnor street. (Sounds like the occupants may have been away for the weekend, hence the non-specific dates).

There's also the events of December 26th 2018 (flashing and peering through the window) on Wellesley Street, right?

Have I missed anything?

It does seem he favours the period around Christmas doesn't it? although of course there may be other unreported incidents.

 

[Vermont24]

We don't know any details about what it was that made greybeard stop his car and check that Libby was ok do we? I'm now wondering if he saw her talking to a 'man' (not naming names here) and sensed that something wasn't quite right. The 'man' may then have wandered off (aka sat and had a *advertiser censored*) whilst waiting for greybeard to go away... and then returned to hassle Libby.
Also... since the police clearly don't mind appealing for witnesses who were around that night, it's odd that they haven't asked spiderman to come forward. I know others have already said this, but it does look like they know who spiderman is. Whether it's PR is another matter.

And lastly - I'm not sure why people are saying there was a gap in PR's alleged offending (ie. nothing in 2017). As far as I can make out the offences happened on the following dates:

Dec 4th 2017 (Monday) Theft of Playstation stuff and £25 Lambton Street
Jan 23 2018 (Tuesday) Voyeurism, Etstuary Street
Jan 19th 2019 (Sat) Masturbating in a public place (street?)
Jan 25th - 28th 2019 (Fri-Mon) Trespass, theft of laptop, kindle, speaker, sex toys, condoms and photographs. Ventnor street. (Sounds like the occupants may have been away for the weekend, hence the non-specific dates).

There's also the events of December 26th 2018 (flashing and peering through the window) on Wellesley Street, right?

Have I missed anything?

It does seem he favours the period around Christmas doesn't it? although of course there may be other unreported incidents.

Not quite. Dec 26th was Ella Street rather than Wellesley Avenue, for which he hasn't been charged thus far. Wellesley was January 19th, less than 2 weeks before LS disappeared. Full charges are here:

Everything that happened when Pawel Relowicz appeared in court

 

[Spy Versus Spy]

Sorry, I seem to have wandered into a strange world of a Presbyterian Morality Seminar coupled with Diana-esque weeping and wailing

Put the Gin down.

Put it in your pantry with your cupcakes.

It's my mistake. I must have taken a wrong turning. Like the great Cynic philosopher Diogenes, I was simply looking for an honest man here in this corrupt Athenian State.



On a serious note...the ongoing debate on our new thread above does re-iterate strongly the fact that not only do we know very little about the events that LE are currently investigating, but also very little about LS herself, her Personality, Morality or Psychology .

Hopefully March 11th ,or some random turn before then, will shine a new light.