GUILTY CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *CW LWOP* #70

[mtnlites]

I've listened to the first 3 tapes, may have been the first part of no. 4, from Scott Reisch channel. I won't be listening to the rest, I decided I am not going to give him the space in my being. Well I didn't decide actually, my being took over and removed the headphones and I walked away - my inquisitiveness left me. His lies are so venomous and repulsive that he can keep his poison all for himself.

I am angry at Tammy and Graham for giving him this platform to continue to spew his lies, really angry. I think they went there for selfish reasons because they didn't get a trial. None of this helps anyone, least of all the Rzuceks. I'm actually livid about it, that they have to be tormented now by thinking of those beautiful little girls' last moments. Yes it vindicates Shanann but she was vindicated already by his guilty pleas in the hearts of anyone who matters, never even suspected as a matter of fact so no need for vindication.

Disgusted and boiling over! This is nothing more than a media circus and ratings now, and a couple of LE (IMO) who enjoyed the spotlight rather too much, I believe. They gave him the original get out about Shanann doing it and now they're responsible for more of the same, IMO.

He planned all their murders before she came home. MOO. How dare they enjoy one minute of levity with him and bring him pop and tell him he's loved, after these devastating murders. I don't care if they had unanswered questions, they're still unanswered IMO.

I disagree that it doesn't help the Rzuceks. Some social media groups have actually been removed by the platform since the release of this audio. Some people who continued to blame SW are starting to see the real picture. As has been explained many times before already, CW finally just coming out and saying that he DID kill the girls is at least the truth-something the Rzuckes hadn't yet heard from him. Some of the details might be false, but the overall message is clear: he killed all four. The Rzuceks haven't just been dealing with the death of SW and the girls, they've also been dealing with the harassment of the trolls from the CW fan club. They've seen their loved one's name dragged through the mud over and over again, thanks to CW's initial "story." Our own VI person said that she was glad that he did it and that it helped HER. Until the Rzuceks come right out and say that they didn't want to hear it and that they're angry, I am not going to speak for them. What I think or what anyone on the forum thinks doesn't matter. The only people it should matter to are SW's family and friends. And, so far, there have been no complaints.

 

[Heaven Leigh]

God Bless the Rzuceks. My mind cant even go to their level of pain. Whatever it takes to bring closure to some of their unanswered questions is a blessing not many families get. The finality of clearing their daughters name is now one less burden.
The willingness to spare his life tells you the kind of people they are. CW will fade away their loss sure never will.

 

[Mamamiamaria]

I have listened to the recording now and I applaud the LE people for going back. I noticed no difference in their demeanor between this interview and the original interviews when arrested. I can only think they are experts in their field and know exactly the approach they need to take with each individual case.

I cannot imagine the effect this case must have had on those agents. I know how it has affected me, an uninvolved person at the other side of the world. Answers to certain things must be so important for those who worked the case day in day out, in order for them to try and close it down. They started out with missing children and a missing mother, it must be horrific for them to see what unfolded, no matter how hard they worked.

I believe CW will be happy in prison, he has been looked after all his life. His mother, Shanann and though he does not know it NK all took care of him and directed him in life. Now prison will suit him, everyone else will do the planning and he will go along for the ride, do as he is told.

What i found most interesting was his talk of NK. He said she let him be himself (paraphrasing), but i dont believe she did. She allowed him to think that by cleverly choosing interests he had to go on dates to. She was pulling his strings very cleverly.

I have always believed she was far from truthful and now I am certain. She made their relationship out to be casual and in the early stages. He says he stayed over in her place every night Shanann was away. She said she would like to give him a son, the one thing she thought Shanann could not do/had not done. No wonder he did not want the gender reveal to go ahead. I have never had a discussion like that with a boyfriend of mere weeks in all my life.

I think she is far more significant in this than we will ever know, she was clever and coniving and once she set her sights on him he had no chance. What she wants she gets and tough luck on anybody who gets in her way.

I am not suggesting she played any part in the killings but you dont always need to have blood on your hands, accountability works in lots of different ways. His mother and sister should take a long hard look at themselves also and consider what role they had to play in what eventually happened.

I hope Shananns family and friends and those LE officials and staff who had to witness this terrible tragedy can find peace and know they have done all they can to help four beautiful souls find peace.

 

[bonjoviblonde]

I disagree that it doesn't help the Rzuceks. Some social media groups have actually been removed by the platform since the release of this audio. Some people who continued to blame SW are starting to see the real picture. As has been explained many times before already, CW finally just coming out and saying that he DID kill the girls is at least the truth-something the Rzuckes hadn't yet heard from him. Some of the details might be false, but the overall message is clear: he killed all four. The Rzuceks haven't just been dealing with the death of SW and the girls, they've also been dealing with the harassment of the trolls from the CW fan club. They've seen their loved one's name dragged through the mud over and over again, thanks to CW's initial "story." Our own VI person said that she was glad that he did it and that it helped HER. Until the Rzuceks come right out and say that they didn't want to hear it and that they're angry, I am not going to speak for them. What I think or what anyone on the forum thinks doesn't matter. The only people it should matter to are SW's family and friends. And, so far, there have been no complaints.

ITA and I’m surprised that some don’t seem to get that these agents are doing their job and doing it well. They are not friends to CW, they are simply doing what they need to do to get him to talk. They have techniques on how to handle these murderers and they knew exactly which one to use on CW. These FBI agents aren’t upset that “they didn’t get a trial” nor are they enjoying being “in the spotlight”. As I said before, I have no doubt they left there wanting to smother him and throw him in an oil tank. IMO.

 

[Loveallmyhorsesdogsandcats]

I don't at all agree that this was a "rage" killing. I don't think CW can feel rage or any other emotion. Even the way he talks about being in a "rage" doesn't ring true.

I will always believe these were premeditated murders. Rage had nothing to do with it. They were cold calculated murders.

In the interviews I believe it was Coder or Lee who first suggested it was rage. Oh how I wish they had not done that and just let CW try to give them a reason, I don’t think he would have ever used rage as a reason. He answered yea, that’s all I can think of yet he could not give them a reason for the rage. In my opinion if he felt rage it was only for them being back and ruining his little fantasy life.

 

[Colorfuel]

I wonder if CW had some degree of autism. I mention that no as an excuse because he knew right from wrong, but as a possible explanation for his social awkwardness and the weird way that he acted regarding emotions.

I think he probably doesn’t, but I had to ask myself this, too—whether he could be lightly on the spectrum in addition to having psychopathic characteristics. I concluded that I don’t see what autism spectrum could explain that psychopath + weird family + temperament wouldn’t. I’m no expert though, just my thought process.

(Btw I am not remotely implying that autism itself would lead to these crimes. It is, as you said, about his social blind spots.)

 

[Loveallmyhorsesdogsandcats]

I have listened to the recording now and I applaud the LE people for going back. I noticed no difference in their demeanor between this interview and the original interviews when arrested. I can only think they are experts in their field and know exactly the approach they need to take with each individual case.

I cannot imagine the effect this case must have had on those agents. I know how it has affected me, an uninvolved person at the other side of the world. Answers to certain things must be so important for those who worked the case day in day out, in order for them to try and close it down. They started out with missing children and a missing mother, it must be horrific for them to see what unfolded, no matter how hard they worked.

I believe CW will be happy in prison, he has been looked after all his life. His mother, Shanann and though he does not know it NK all took care of him and directed him in life. Now prison will suit him, everyone else will do the planning and he will go along for the ride, do as he is told.

What i found most interesting was his talk of NK. He said she let him be himself (paraphrasing), but i dont believe she did. She allowed him to think that by cleverly choosing interests he had to go on dates to. She was pulling his strings very cleverly.

I have always believed she was far from truthful and now I am certain. She made their relationship out to be casual and in the early stages. He says he stayed over in her place every night Shanann was away. She said she would like to give him a son, the one thing she thought Shanann could not do/had not done. No wonder he did not want the gender reveal to go ahead. I have never had a discussion like that with a boyfriend of mere weeks in all my life.

I think she is far more significant in this than we will ever know, she was clever and coniving and once she set her sights on him he had no chance. What she wants she gets and tough luck on anybody who gets in her way.

I am not suggesting she played any part in the killings but you dont always need to have blood on your hands, accountability works in lots of different ways. His mother and sister should take a long hard look at themselves also and consider what role they had to play in what eventually happened.

I hope Shananns family and friends and those LE officials and staff who had to witness this terrible tragedy can find peace and know they have done all they can to help four beautiful souls find peace.

Spot on. I doubt his mother and sister will ever acknowledge any behaviors on their part. After the nug gate incident CW said they told him they didn’t know if they could ever forgive Shanann -wth?They will never take ownership.
I too hope they can find a measure of peace.

 

[Tortoise]

ITA and I’m surprised that some don’t seem to get that these agents are doing their job and doing it well. They are not friends to CW, they are simply doing what they need to do to get him to talk. They have techniques on how to handle these murderers and they knew exactly which one to use on CW. These FBI agents aren’t upset that “they didn’t get a trial” nor are they enjoying being “in the spotlight”. As I said before, I have no doubt they left there wanting to smother him and throw him in an oil tank. IMO.

It's not a fact that they are doing their job well, it's an opinion, so rather than say "don't seem to get" I would have said 'don't seem to agree' with that opinion.

In my opinion I would agree with you that they have techniques, but if those techniques are producing more lies about the way in which he killed Shanann and are hiding the (IMO) fact that he premeditated the whole thing, then it wasn't effective in this typical case of family annihilation. Chris Watts is no different from the others, even though they told him he was, IMO.

<modsnip telling others how to post>

Now we are left with a murderer claiming he killed Shanann because she told him he wouldn't see the girls. It sullies her memory IMO. I believe he strangled her coldly, calculatedly and calmly with her pinned down while she was sleeping. I believe he used the same coldness and calculatedness with the girls in the truck, although theirs was a worse ordeal because they had the fear of being awake and knowing what he was doing. Whether Shanann told him after an earlier argument he would not see the girls is not relevant, because if he wanted to keep his girls he wouldn't have planned to also kill them. Had Bella not woken up I have no doubt he would have made the rounds to their bedrooms and also killed them while sleeping.

He took off Shanann's ring, he hid her phone, he put gas in the truck, he used the credit card, he sent the doll picture - why? Because he planned ahead, this wasn't done in a panicked half hour of madness and reaction before he left. He set his alarm to do this. IMO.

He sent calm texts to his colleagues from the site and took photos of sunflowers, why? because he was thinking, he was not in a panic.

As far as I'm concerned he planned this all in NC when he left that letter at his parent's house on August 6th (put up on another site that we are not allowed to link to but allowed to discuss) telling whomever it may concern that he would never do anything to harm his children or his wife. I've compared the handwriting and it matches his writing in my (inexpert but educated) opinion. His family did not take that letter to the police yet it is evidence out there in the world. Why they would not hand it over to investigators and investigators knew nothing about it at the earlier press conference shows me that his family knows it shows premeditation IMO.

I'm all for trying to understand killers but not for promoting their damaging lies. They should have left this to a psychiatric evaluation in due course IMO.

 

[PommyMommy]

How could a man like Chris Watts so callously slaughter his entire family?
By Robi Ludwig, Psy.D.

Thank you, kizzykat, great article. More:

"Familicide is the act of murdering multiple close family members in quick succession. Often these men are deeply depressed and feel ashamed of themselves. They try to spare their family from imminent financial ruin or status loss and embarrassment. Other disappointed familicide killers want to punish the family for not living up to their grandiose ideas of family life. Half of these family annihilators attempt suicide after the crime. This is where Chris Watts is a bit of an anomaly.

[...]

Like most sociopaths/psychopaths, Chris' romantic relationships and the feelings of being “in love” was not experienced the way a healthy, well-adapted person falls in love.

Sociopaths enter romantic relationships based on an agenda. They always consider what they can get from others first. Men like Chris are not able to be intimate or express empathy or deep emotions. Given these emotional limitations, Watts was drawn to his wife Shanann, because he believed she could make him loved, healthy, normal and whole. He was not able to get these feelings on his own. He very likely thought Shanann could help him feel this way because she had this amazing ability to create an image of satisfaction and success. She also was madly in love with him.

We can assume that Shanann Watts had the capacity to make Chris' world look and feel magical; this worked for him for a period of time, until it no longer did. After some financial difficulties and other frustrations associated with family life, Chris' must have believed he had made a drastic mistake in marrying and having a family with Shanann. It became clear to him that she could not make him feel healthy, happy or whole.

As Chris found himself feeling increasingly more depressed, angry and trapped, he knew he needed to escape this life he had created for himself. This was what partially prompted his work affair/romance.

[...]

Chris is a pathological narcissist and psychopath. All that matters to him are his own needs, his own sense of happiness and his own well-being. He has no sense of connection or feelings toward others, even his own blood. Anyone in the way of his goal was an obstacle that should not continue to exist.

Chris is also a blamer. He blames others for his failures and frustrations. He suppressed these emotions until the violence erupted. This time the target was his pregnant wife and two young daughters. In his tangled thinking, his family, all of them, was guilty, and since Chris blamed his wife and children for his own failings, they had to go."

 

[kaykay543]

In the interviews I believe it was Coder or Lee who first suggested it was rage. Oh how I wish they had not done that and just let CW try to give them a reason, I don’t think he would have ever used rage as a reason. He answered yea, that’s all I can think of yet he could not give them a reason for the rage. In my opinion if he felt rage it was only for them being back and ruining his little fantasy life.

I was referring to the article in the link that called it a rage killing

But like you I do wish they had let him say what it was first. In the interview he can't even describe rage. IMO because he never felt it. Most of us can easily describe being in a rage because it is so emotional.

 

[NanZDrew]

This is a great article at explaining the mind of CW, IMO. As I read it, I thought that one of the frightening things about CW is that he did not seem to show the signs of violence and rage that many narcs show. They are charming and kind, then you marry them and pretty soon they begin to try to beat their victim down and belittle them. People that leave them, know that this is a dangerous undertaking and often get support and help from others to safely do so. Since CW always just "went with the flow," SW was completely blindsided. She did not know she was living with the devil. Had she known, she would never have left her parents and gone back to hell.
How could a man like Chris Watts so callously slaughter his entire family?

 

[Moonracer]

I don't like that this has given him a worldwide platform in which to lie and manipulate. He's lying in crucial areas, he's getting to put out the version of events he wants out there, and to what end? Letting a quadruple murderer set a narrative has no benefit, IMO. Garbage in, garbage out. If it brings closure to the family, that's good. I'm not family, but I was sickened by what was clearly just more lies and even blame towards Shannan. The bit about she didn't fight back because she was probably praying for him - give me a break. He had her pinned, the filthy coward. She wouldn't have let him kill her - she'd have fought like a tiger to save the baby and the kids. And as for the "professionals" who are getting their fifteen minutes of fame piggybacking on this and throwing around definitive diagnoses- ugh.

 

[PommyMommy]

I've listened to the first 3 tapes, may have been the first part of no. 4, from Scott Reisch channel. I won't be listening to the rest, I decided I am not going to give him the space in my being. Well I didn't decide actually, my being took over and removed the headphones and I walked away - my inquisitiveness left me. His lies are so venomous and repulsive that he can keep his poison all for himself.

I am angry at Tammy and Graham for giving him this platform to continue to spew his lies, really angry. I think they went there for selfish reasons because they didn't get a trial. None of this helps anyone, least of all the Rzuceks. I'm actually livid about it, that they have to be tormented now by thinking of those beautiful little girls' last moments. Yes it vindicates Shanann but she was vindicated already by his guilty pleas in the hearts of anyone who matters, never even suspected as a matter of fact so no need for vindication.

Disgusted and boiling over! This is nothing more than a media circus and ratings now, and a couple of LE (IMO) who enjoyed the spotlight rather too much, I believe. They gave him the original get out about Shanann doing it and now they're responsible for more of the same, IMO.

He planned all their murders before she came home. MOO. How dare they enjoy one minute of levity with him and bring him pop and tell him he's loved, after these devastating murders. I don't care if they had unanswered questions, they're still unanswered IMO.

Tortoise, did you listen to the Dr. Phil show that aired on Mar 5? In that episode, Dr. Phil met with the Rzucek's attorney's but the Rzucek's themselves will appear in part two of the series. At the end of that show, there is a preview of Monday's Part II and Frank Jr. says, "I’m glad that it’s gonna shut up all the people who still say that Shanann did it."

IMO, as tortuous as the new details are for the Rzucek family, they want to put an end to the denigration of their daughter's memory. They want the world to know that she was a good wife and a good mother, and put to bed the vile and repulsive assertions by the CW apologists that she killed her children. They chose to give an interview with Dr. Phil to clear Shanann's name.

I hope you know that I always value your opinions and usually agree with you, but I must respectfully disagree with you on this one. While excruciatingly painful, the Rzucek's chose to make this information public and I respect that decision.

Also, see:

Lawyer details reported Chris Watts confession on 'Dr. Phil': What we know
At Watts' sentencing, Weld County District Attorney Michael Rourke invited Watts to come forward at some point and reveal how and why he committed these murders.

Watts' parents also said in statements to the court during the sentencing hearing they hoped he would someday come forward with the truth about what happened to Shanann, Bella, Celeste and unborn baby Nico.

Chris Watts grisly murder confession: ‘Reality turns out to be much worse’ than DA imagined
After Watts was sentenced to three consecutive life terms in prison, Rourke said he doubted Watts would ever give an honest account of the killings. But on Thursday, Rourke said he believes Watts' recent confession to investigators is a "truthful, credible account" of the killings.

Colorado man discloses details about killing wife, daughters
Authorities who visited Watts in February told him that "his life and situation was unique and we wanted to fully understand what happened," according to a written summary of the interview.

MOO

 

[scdiv]

Somebody, long ago on this forum, suggested that she went to bed and he came in and cuddled a little. She was under the sheets and he straddled her and he had his knees on each side of her arms pushing them against her body. With her arms under the sheets, she was basically in a cocoon. I thought it was a very likely scenario then, and now I especially believe this is true. She had no chance to defend herself. She would have fought for her unborn child and her girls if she had been able to fight.

As she was praying away for forgiveness for Chris because he knew not what he was doing.

He said something along the lines of that's what he thinks may have been going through her mind. Sure, Chris.

 

[NanZDrew]

Did anyone notice that in the transcript he mentioned that he didn't have to "hit" CeCe down into the tank...which I saw as his admission that he DID "hit" poor little Bella down into the tank. Off course the evidence and scratches already indicated that, but to read his admission was astounding. I haven't listened to the tapes yet.

 

[PommyMommy]

I disagree that it doesn't help the Rzuceks. Some social media groups have actually been removed by the platform since the release of this audio. Some people who continued to blame SW are starting to see the real picture. As has been explained many times before already, CW finally just coming out and saying that he DID kill the girls is at least the truth-something the Rzuckes hadn't yet heard from him. Some of the details might be false, but the overall message is clear: he killed all four. The Rzuceks haven't just been dealing with the death of SW and the girls, they've also been dealing with the harassment of the trolls from the CW fan club. They've seen their loved one's name dragged through the mud over and over again, thanks to CW's initial "story." Our own VI person said that she was glad that he did it and that it helped HER. Until the Rzuceks come right out and say that they didn't want to hear it and that they're angry, I am not going to speak for them. What I think or what anyone on the forum thinks doesn't matter. The only people it should matter to are SW's family and friends. And, so far, there have been no complaints.

Yes, this is what I was trying to say - as usual, you said it so much better than I did. I look forward to hearing from the Rzucek's themselves on Monday and hope it clears all of this up.
MOO

 

[Gardenista]

I've listened to the first 3 tapes, may have been the first part of no. 4, from Scott Reisch channel. I won't be listening to the rest, I decided I am not going to give him the space in my being. Well I didn't decide actually, my being took over and removed the headphones and I walked away - my inquisitiveness left me. His lies are so venomous and repulsive that he can keep his poison all for himself.

I am angry at Tammy and Graham for giving him this platform to continue to spew his lies, really angry. I think they went there for selfish reasons because they didn't get a trial. None of this helps anyone, least of all the Rzuceks. I'm actually livid about it, that they have to be tormented now by thinking of those beautiful little girls' last moments. Yes it vindicates Shanann but she was vindicated already by his guilty pleas in the hearts of anyone who matters, never even suspected as a matter of fact so no need for vindication.

Disgusted and boiling over! This is nothing more than a media circus and ratings now, and a couple of LE (IMO) who enjoyed the spotlight rather too much, I believe. They gave him the original get out about Shanann doing it and now they're responsible for more of the same, IMO.

He planned all their murders before she came home. MOO. How dare they enjoy one minute of levity with him and bring him pop and tell him he's loved, after these devastating murders. I don't care if they had unanswered questions, they're still unanswered IMO.

IMO, this is so disrespectful to the Rzuceks.

 

[Tortoise]

Tortoise, did you listen to the Dr. Phil show that aired on Mar 5? In that episode, Dr. Phil met with the Rzucek's attorney's but the Rzucek's will appear in part two of the special. At the end of that show, there is a preview of Monday's show and Frank Jr. says, "I’m glad that it’s gonna shut up all the people who still say that Shanann did it."

IMO, as tortuous as the new details are for the Rzucek family, they want to put an end to the denigration of their daughter's memory. They want the world to know that she was a good wife and a good mother, and put to bed the vile and repulsive assertions by the CW apologists that she killed her children. They chose to give an interview with Dr. Phil to clear her name.

I hope you know that I have always valued your opinions and usually agree with them, but I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. While excruciatingly painful, the Rzucek's chose to make this information public and I respect that decision.

Also, see:

Lawyer details reported Chris Watts confession on 'Dr. Phil': What we know
At Watts' sentencing, Weld County District Attorney Michael Rourke invited Watts to come forward at some point and reveal how and why he committed these murders.

Watts' parents also said in statements to the court during the sentencing hearing they hoped he would someday come forward with the truth about what happened to Shanann, Bella, Celeste and unborn baby Nico.

Chris Watts grisly murder confession: ‘Reality turns out to be much worse’ than DA imagined
After Watts was sentenced to three consecutive life terms in prison, Rourke said he doubted Watts would ever give an honest account of the killings. But on Thursday, Rourke said he believes Watts' recent confession to investigators is a "truthful, credible account" of the killings.

Colorado man discloses details about killing wife, daughters
Authorities who visited Watts in February told him that "his life and situation was unique and we wanted to fully understand what happened," according to a written summary of the interview.

MOO

Of course I'm okay with that PommyMommy, I don't require anyone to agree with me and I respect all opinions, know that we are all entitled to form different opinions and I will always love you because you are simply the best (IMO!) .

I don't dispute that the family gave this the ok, and are happy that it vindicates Shanann in the eyes of some truly vile trolls. I disagree with Mr Rourke's assessment that Watts has been truthful or is credible - that's where I think there is error in laying this down in concrete now, that Watts was enraged at what Shanann said to him. That is the kind of blame and manipulation these sociopaths employ, and they get off on people believing them.

In my opinion, I don't know that it will actually change the minds of the trolls, but it might give people the ability to shut them down, and I don't know that more lies helps anyone in the long run, pursuing the truth. Truth is the star to track down, and always will be in my book.

 

[Tortoise]

IMO, this is so disrespectful to the Rzuceks.

That is not my intention Gardenista. I want and wish for only the very best for them and I think that misconstrues my intentions.

 

[scdiv]

I listened to the full audio and it is really striking how little emotion CW shows about the family that he killed. I mean, he is really, really not mourning the loss of his family. He expresses vague regret that he met NK or didn't go to the Broncos game that weekend instead of out with her, or something like that, but he really never says anything like he wishes he didn't kill anyone or wishes he could take it back. He doesn't cry at their memories or talk of little personality traits. He cheerfully describes Shanann's cooking and some really good fried pizza she used to make that he misses. He has more pep in his voice and sounds more wistful about not having fried pizza again than he does about missing his wife. He chats with the detectives about what airport they flew in and housing costs in different markets. The guy is really missing some chips. I think he is missing a conscience.

It's weird - he is a narcissist but in a different way than like a Scott Peterson who was used to being a "charmer" and I think who enjoyed the media attention. CW seems to me like he prefers laying low and being invisible. Is there such a thing as an extroverted narcissist and an introverted narcissist? Ha. Ina ny case, he's just the worst.

The detectives role in this case was to befriend him, gain his trust, show understanding, boost his ego, all with the laser focus goal of getting him to relax, feel at ease running his mouth, share with them, and feel comfortable enough to give them truthful information. They really do not care about being besties with him or wanting to brighten his mundane day with a friendly visit. There are certain cases that stick with law enforcement that may be legally resolved, but when there are so many unanswered questions, it's not unheard of for them to follow up. It just usually doesn't make national news.