GUILTY CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *CW LWOP* #70

[Deleted member 239597]

Dr. Phil referred to CW as a malignant narcissist. After reading the attached article, I'm thinking Dr. Phil might just be right. The video that is included is also very interesting.

Borderline Personality Disorder | Psychology Today
He falls into this category too.... These disorders all show some of the same characteristics. What one needs to realize that only a trained professional that is the patients personal direct treatment source on an on-going basis is able to diagnose any of these mental health issues.

I will try not to Plagiarize here:

"*Intense bouts of anger, depression, or anxiety that may last only hours or, at most, a few days. These may be associated with episodes of impulsive aggression, self-injury, and drug or alcohol abuse.
*Individuals with BPD are highly sensitive to rejection, reacting with anger and distress to mild separations.
*highly unstable patterns of social relationships

While they can develop intense but stormy attachments, their attitudes toward family, friends, and loved ones may suddenly shift from idealization (great admiration and love) to devaluation (intense anger and dislike). Thus, they may form an immediate attachment and idealize another person, but when a slight separation or conflict occurs, switch unexpectedly to the other extreme and angrily accuse the other person of not caring for them at all."

I will stop the quote there. 20% Rule. It is no doubt CW may have very well been traumatized leading to PTSD with the way his parents brought him up. We see SW continually NOT understanding his sudden shift of behavior that he really loves her and then wants nothing to do with her. Too, SW parents said they don't understand cause he idolized her. His own parents made the comment CW idolized SW.

People with BPD are also highly reactive and they become impulsive. This gets them into more trouble.

I Like this particular link because it states, "Even a vacation, a business trip, or a sudden change in plans can spur negative thoughts."

Think about that one. SW just got back from a business trip after taking a vacation that lasted a couple of weeks. The same morning she was murdered.

A person with BPD also has a distortion of thoughts. They don't think like you.

I KNOW BECAUSE I DO HAVE THIS. I don't have many friends. I'm not easily liked because people don't understand ANY OF THIS.

I'm not downing Dr. Phil or his PHD. I really do NOT see Narcissism in his character.

I see EXTREME EMOTIONS most of all that he can't control. AND YES...I laugh inappropriately at things as well as it was stated CW does in one of the thread posts....it clicks and resonates with me.

Do you think I like to see a little of myself in a murderer who harmed innocent little babies? I DETEST that part of me. I NEVER murdered anyone and for the most part shut myself in and do not go out because I cannot stand myself when I hurt someone's feelings. CHRIS CRIED....he broke down when and started slurring his words, mumbled, became a muttering idiot at the fact that he didn't spare his little one's lives....That speaks volumes, if he was narcissistic as people are penning him he wouldn't have done that. You can't fake it either. I believe he was being sincere....the reason I feel that way is because he was asked WHY...then the person interviewing him put a suggestion into that why...and CW SAID NO he was angry. A narcissist thinking maybe he could take what that person said and run with it would have agreed whole heartedly because Narcissistic people really believe they do no wrong and there is reason for every thing they do.

Chris is not saying he did no wrong here or he wasn't wrong. Quite the opposite is true. He said there is no reason. He doesn't know....and OMG revelation time..."being a dad was the best part of my life, _I_ took it all away" he's got accountability here.

To put it in a different light and to use an example as a reference here only. An example of a TRUE NARCISSISTIC PERSONALITY is CHARLIE MANSON who always claimed no wrong doing even while he was in jail for life.

I really do not believe Chris was Narcissistic.

AGAIN...This all is my opinion only and I am not a trained professional. I do suffer from BPD.

All respect goes out to the Victims family and friends and EVEN though I do believe that CW mother was kind of 'off' my heart goes out to them and their family as well.

Even though I feel, CW has BPD or something like it, in no way means that I excuse his actions and what he has done to destroy lives, including his own. There is NO good excuse to over power a child and there is no good excuse to take anyone's life.

 

[molly1255]

Borderline Personality Disorder | Psychology Today
He falls into this category too.... These disorders all show some of the same characteristics. What one needs to realize that only a trained professional that is the patients personal direct treatment source on an on-going basis is able to diagnose any of these mental health issues.

I do realize that only a trained mental professional is able to diagnose any of these issues. There appears to be overlapping features in Cluster B.

 

[Colorfuel]

I do realize that only a trained mental professional is able to diagnose any of these issues. There appears to be overlapping features in Cluster B.

Lol yep, I think all of us here know we are not giving anyone an official clinical diagnosis. (And yes, cluster B is a cluster because of overlapping features.)

Just imo when someone has done what this guy did in the way he did it, you can start with psychopathy as highly probable and work your way back. He may not be an exactly typical psychopath, but his actions fit the definition, and he may just have a more convincing persona than some do. He often sounds like the nice guy, but when I go back and look at all these videos in which he is clenching his jaw and baring his teeth in a way that does not look like a smile but like an animal aggression signal, he doesn’t really appear like one down to all the details.

 

[jillycat]

I think I understand your feelings, and if someone wants to stop with simply calling something evil and that satisfies them, it is imo a valid personal choice.

But as a societal choice, I do not agree that is adequate. And the very good work of a researcher such as Kent Kiehl goes a long way toward helping make some sense of how incarcerated people who score high on the psychopathy checklist have measurable brain differences to other people, and that there may be ways to recognize this early and prevent it. That would help society as a whole.

An earlier article about Kiehl’s work, in the New Yorker:
The Minds of Psychopaths

A more recent book, which also points to interventions done with juveniles:
https://www.amazon.com/Psychopath-W...ds=Kent+Kiehl&qid=1552404165&s=gateway&sr=8-1

It's not an issue of my feelings, rather, I referenced the lack of conscience in what I'm calling "evil" individuals because they lack insight, they lack any and all desire/ability to self-reflect beyond their own emotional states or preferences, and they really don't care that they do harm. And as we know, some enjoy doing harm. We can call them whatever we like and it won't change anything. The problem with all the theories of what to do about the 'psychopath' problem (I notice the characteristics of 'narcissists'/'sociopaths'/'psychopaths' are listed as essentially the same...then we start with the 'covert' narcissists, 'malignant' narcissists, etc.), is we're theorizing from the prison vantage point after the casualties occur, and the conclusion is always the same: "maybe this or that will lead to a 'treatment', usually in the form of a pharmaceutical....etc."

Maybe.

This has been going on for decades and no pill or 'therapy' or brain scan has led to 'empathy treatment' or cruelty suppression in these people.

I don't believe we can give people a conscience, no matter what we learn about their brain vs yours or mine. We can make 'sense' of what they do by observing over and over again that they all behave essentially the same way on a continuum of severity, and then teach others about how to recognize and avoid them. Still, they will not always be spotted in time. But, I don't know that a Chris Watts or a Patrick Frazee, or a Bundy or a Jesse Matthew could be that different because they take a pill or receive other medicalized remedies for their predator behaviors.

I worked in the non-profit sector for a lot of years, in crisis intervention, and with people who had barriers to adequate housing. I was a case manager at a homeless shelter with a very mixed group of people. My observation of those on the continuum of no empathy or conscience, and who were often on our doorsteps as a result of having served time for crimes already committed, was that you can't make a social predator into something he or she is not.

It's like the story of the fox who encounters a scorpion who wants to ride on the fox's back across the river. He makes an appeal that he'll drown if he doesn't have the back of the fox to support him. The fox argues that the scorpion will sting him if he gives him the ride, and the scorpion swears that he will not betray the help because it would be the drowning death of them both. So the fox agrees. He is then stung by the scorpion and they both start to drown. The fox says, "Why did you bite me when you said you wouldn't and now we're both drowning?" And the scorpion says, "Because it's my nature."

 

[pinkie60]

I don't think he wanted to kill the girls, that's why he took them on the "ride" alive. In the end though, he realized he had to kill them since they were witnesses.

But then to stop and take pictures of wildflowers after doing these horrible deeds shows whatever is wrong he has a real disconnect with life

 

[Deleted member 239597]

I do realize that only a trained mental professional is able to diagnose any of these issues. There appears to be overlapping features in Cluster B.

I edited it to show my point. I wasn't saying no one realizes this. I'm just getting in my 2 cents worth in too. In no way am I trying to minimize the horrific evil act that has been done however I'm really adamant he's not narcissistic.

 

[molly1255]

Lol yep, I think all of us here know we are not giving anyone an official clinical diagnosis. (And yes, cluster B is a cluster because of overlapping features.)

Just imo when someone has done what this guy did in the way he did it, you can start with psychopathy as highly probable and work your way back. He may not be an exactly typical psychopath, but his actions fit the definition, and he may just have a more convincing persona than some do. He often sounds like the nice guy, but when I go back and look at all these videos in which he is clenching his jaw and baring his teeth in a way that does not look like a smile but like an animal aggression signal, he doesn’t really appear like one down to all the details.

LOL - I agree that psychopathy is a very good starting point when someone does the things that CW did!

 

[pinkie60]

Hi! I am a long time looker. I was wondering if maybe CW thought that he had to kill the girls at the site because he was worried about rigor mortis. Maybe that is why he immediately put CeCe in the tank before killing sweet Bella. He wanted to make sure they were still “warm” and able to slide in the tanks.


I hate even writing that but I’ve always wondered if that is why he killed them at the site rather than at home.

Omg. That makes perfect sense. I never would have thought of it.

 

[Colorfuel]

I edited it to show my point. I wasn't saying no one realizes this. I'm just getting in my 2 cents worth in too. In no way am I trying to minimize the horrific evil act that has been done however I'm really adamant he's narcissistic.

I'm not sure if I think he's a straightforward narcissist because imo he appears to be narcissistic supply to at least one of his parents. Sooooo although I think some of his behaviors probably line up with narcissism, the situation may be more complex/worse. JM--nonclinical--O obviously.

 

[WhatDidYouDo]

I just remembered another similarity that's freaky - my ex's Mom was a complete psycho when our wedding was approaching. She said things like "lets go shopping for coffins instead" when it was time to shop for his tux because him marrying me was going to "kill her" etc. (My big crime was not being Fundamental Baptist). She said she wasn't going to come to the wedding but then showed up anyway - we had to scramble to find her a seat ! She left the reception after about 15 minutes to zero fan fare. When it was clear her son "loved" me and I was in it for the long-haul, she changed her tune and was mother-in-law of the year - that we only saw about twice a year even though she was local. When my marriage ended - she played a huge role in it all. She is what my therapist calls a "flying monkey" for my ex (like the wicked witch of the west's flying monkeys). She even physically assaulted me in my own home. I truly believe Cindy would have been terrible if there was a divorce. Downright evil.

Sorry I keep sharing personal stuff but I can't get over how similar it all is...I've been blessed in that I am aware my ex is capable of murdering me. I wait for him to come. I think Shannan saw his mask come off in the end and THAT is why he killed her. These people have to destroy the person who knows what's really in their soul.

 

[Deleted member 239597]

I'm not sure if I think he's a straightforward narcissist because imo he appears to be narcissistic supply to at least one of his parents. Sooooo although I think some of his behaviors probably line up with narcissism, the situation may be more complex/worse. JM--nonclinical--O obviously.

The reason for my adamancy is not to show that CW was justified in his behavior. MOST with BPD try with or without success to commit suicide which is essentially murdering ones own self. The reason is because this is a highly sensitive case in which real people have been forever affected (my heart burns seeing SW family interview). In a forum such as this with many eyes and possible family members looking without joining WS, to read all these negative comments about all their loved ones (CW family are people with feelings too) I want to make sure I am mindful, even, of what I do say.

One reason I highly advocate CW to seek professional help to get this answer is for the family members involved to try and at least make some sense out of what some are saying is pure evil (which maybe in the sense of the word it is) but can you imagine being CW Mother or Father reading all this about their child? We are all questioning CW's lack of empathy but we are not keeping our own empathy in check (in some comments and cases) Could you bear to know what your son/daughter/loved one did and have an outsider call them evil? CW is still their baby no matter what we view their personalities to be even. There is nothing like a mother's love. How truly hurt they must be inside. Just knowing what their kid did is bad enough without total strangers picking all of them apart when no one really knows them from adam. The family needs to make sense of it and knowledge is power for them. If CW does get a diagnosis even while in jail the family can begin to gain knowledge and get the appropriate support they need to move on with their lives. Their lives do matter.

I'm not saying anyone is arguing this point btw. It's all just my opinion.

 

[Colorfuel]

It's not an issue of my feelings, rather, I referenced the lack of conscience in what I'm calling "evil" individuals because they lack insight, they lack any and all desire/ability to self-reflect beyond their own emotional states or preferences, and they really don't care that they do harm. And as we know, some enjoy doing harm. We can call them whatever we like and it won't change anything. The problem with all the theories of what to do about the 'psychopath' problem (I notice the characteristics of 'narcissists'/'sociopaths'/'psychopaths' are listed as essentially the same...then we start with the 'covert' narcissists, 'malignant' narcissists, etc.), is we're theorizing from the prison vantage point after the casualties occur, and the conclusion is always the same: "maybe this or that will lead to a 'treatment', usually in the form of a pharmaceutical....etc."

Maybe.

This has been going on for decades and no pill or 'therapy' or brain scan has led to 'empathy treatment' or cruelty suppression in these people.

I don't believe we can give people a conscience, no matter what we learn about their brain vs yours or mine. We can make 'sense' of what they do by observing over and over again that they all behave essentially the same way on a continuum of severity, and then teach others about how to recognize and avoid them. Still, they will not always be spotted in time. But, I don't know that a Chris Watts or a Patrick Frazee, or a Bundy or a Jesse Matthew could be that different because they take a pill or receive other medicalized remedies for their predator behaviors.

I worked in the non-profit sector for a lot of years, in crisis intervention, and with people who had barriers to adequate housing. I was a case manager at a homeless shelter with a very mixed group of people. My observation of those on the continuum of no empathy or conscience, and who were often on our doorsteps as a result of having served time for crimes already committed, was that you can't make a social predator into something he or she is not.

It's like the story of the fox who encounters a scorpion who wants to ride on the fox's back across the river. He makes an appeal that he'll drown if he doesn't have the back of the fox to support him. The fox argues that the scorpion will sting him if he gives him the ride, and the scorpion swears that he will not betray the help because it would be the drowning death of them both. So the fox agrees. He is then stung by the scorpion and they both start to drown. The fox says, "Why did you bite me when you said you wouldn't and now we're both drowning?" And the scorpion says, "Because it's my nature."

It certainly wasn't my intent to imply there was not a logical rationale in what you were saying. Sorry if that's how it came across. It's more how I personally handle the problem. At a certain point with individuals who behave like CW did / does, I need to lay it to rest emotionally, and understanding it as evil can help with that. "It's evil, I will never get the answers my mind seeks," etc.

But that book I linked to does actually show how juveniles who were on a track in their brain development to becoming adult criminal psychopaths were helped. Specifically, they were in a residential program that used positive rather than negative reinforcement, and their brains changed to more normal patterns, and their behavior also changed. (It has been shown separately that the psychopathic brain doesn't respond to punishment.)

This may not be what some people want to hear--that the way to fix a psychopath is to give them rewards for what they do right, rather than punishment for what they have done wrong. There is no evidence I know of that shows this will help an adult psychopath, either; I have no idea. But if this is something that can actually help more people be safe, then it warrants more learning. The young people whose brain development was improved via the program I mentioned may very well represent lives saved. And just summing it all up as evil that can't be fixed would have meant that they'd never have been changed.

 

[Deleted member 239597]

Deleted by poster

 

[molly1255]

I edited it to show my point. I wasn't saying no one realizes this. I'm just getting in my 2 cents worth in too. In no way am I trying to minimize the horrific evil act that has been done however I'm really adamant he's not narcissistic.

I think we are all trying to figure out what makes CW tick. JMO, he's probably been evaluated by a mental health professional. Perhaps his own attorneys arranged for an evaluation, and I think the prison would do this, too.

We will likely never learn the results, and I feel that is unfortunate, as knowing the results might help someone identify the red flags in someone in their life who is like CW. JMO.

 

[margarita25]

Shanann and “the sheet” once again makes me wonder about the “doll pic”.

What was the date on that again? Tia.

 

[Deleted member 239597]

I think we are all trying to figure out what makes CW tick. JMO, he's probably been evaluated by a mental health professional. Perhaps his own attorneys arranged for an evaluation, and I think the prison would do this, too.

We will likely never learn the results, and I feel that is unfortunate, as knowing the results might help someone identify the red flags in someone in their life who is like CW. JMO.

On a personal level...I don't care what makes CW tick those who need to care are him and family/friend of his and victims. They need a level of healing we cannot give to them. I don't think one ever recovers fully from something like this.

Your second comment is a great insight to where I wasn't looking. With my black and white thinking sometimes I cannot see where those grey areas fall into place. The results are a matter of the HIPPA privacy act. However, you know what? There is hope because throughout this forum there are great resources to learn those red flags without knowing the results from CW, himself.

 

[molly1255]

I just remembered another similarity that's freaky - my ex's Mom was a complete psycho when our wedding was approaching. She said things like "lets go shopping for coffins instead" when it was time to shop for his tux because him marrying me was going to "kill her" etc. (My big crime was not being Fundamental Baptist). She said she wasn't going to come to the wedding but then showed up anyway - we had to scramble to find her a seat ! She left the reception after about 15 minutes to zero fan fare. When it was clear her son "loved" me and I was in it for the long-haul, she changed her tune and was mother-in-law of the year - that we only saw about twice a year even though she was local. When my marriage ended - she played a huge role in it all. She is what my therapist calls a "flying monkey" for my ex (like the wicked witch of the west's flying monkeys). She even physically assaulted me in my own home. I truly believe Cindy would have been terrible if there was a divorce. Downright evil.

Sorry I keep sharing personal stuff but I can't get over how similar it all is...I've been blessed in that I am aware my ex is capable of murdering me. I wait for him to come. I think Shannan saw his mask come off in the end and THAT is why he killed her. These people have to destroy the person who knows what's really in their soul.

OMG! I hope you've taken steps to protect yourself. It can even help if they believe you have taken these steps. I let someone know I had a permit to carry (I do have one) and he's left me alone for ten years.

 

[DaisyKenny]

deleted by me

 

[PommyMommy]

Shanann and “the sheet” once again makes me wonder about the “doll pic”.

What was the date on that again? Tia.

August 9, 2018.

 

[molly1255]

On a personal level...I don't care what makes CW tick those who need to care are him and family/friend of his and victims. They need a level of healing we cannot give to them. I don't think one ever recovers fully from something like this.

Your second comment is a great insight to where I wasn't looking. With my black and white thinking sometimes I cannot see where those grey areas fall into place. The results are a matter of the HIPPA privacy act. However, you know what? There is hope because throughout this forum there are great resources to learn those red flags without knowing the results from CW, himself.

Agree. I don't think it is possible for Shanann's family to fully recover from this. The same goes for Shanann's close friends. What they have been through and what they have lost is unfathomable.

There is a lot of great insight about red flags on this forum. I think it is very important for everyone to know the red flags of a dangerous person and to also know a dangerous person can appear to be a very nice guy, or a very nice woman.