CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #50 *ARREST*

[ilovechili]

Thanks. I missed that in the documents about the keys.

ETA....The keys should be recoverable if KK is supposed to be cooperating and knows exactly where she was standing when she allegedly threw them over the side. Not sure I believe her about anything though and maybe LE doesnt quite believe her either so could be why they are not searching for them.

They sure took a lot of keys per the LE search warrants from ma's house. And slap me, I can't remember where but somewhere in those documents it sounded like PF was picking up KB's mail and had a number of PO keys himself or different PO boxes?

 

[MassGuy]

They were very excellent musings. Brain cells will do that I also doubt the body was burned and then KK had pizza, Ibuprofen and traveled in a few hours. I am a fire girl. It is amazing the things that will not burn with even fuel. And how many hours it takes. And I know it by a potbelly stove and an open fire pit and a barrel. By fire girl, I mean nothing bad, I mean junk mail, magazines, newspaper inserts, etc. Plastic. Styrofoam. Bigger things. Metal. Etc. The body burned there and the body not found is the most doubtful part of this case, not because they need a body so much as that the story of what happened to the body just does not make sense and not in that timeline. I don't buy it.

And then along with KK's story that PF was communicative and chatty with her about every last detail when no one, even those that defend him to no end, like CC, have ever hinted at any such thing. He was allegedly just the opposite.

It will be a total battle at trial. Look at the witness they have. Hardly ideal.

Some think that is a knock at LE. So tired of hearing that, it is not. Most LE will tell you they take the case they have and sometimes it is not always there. They have to deal with the devil and sometimes after the deal they find they have exactly done that to get another devil. And they HATE it.

Homolka. OJ. Casey. Most thought and believed they would be slam dunks. Just naming a few... Not talking about deals there, except with Homolka... But still. It happens...

Just my own opinion not speaking for you or anyone else. Just jumping off of your post...

And it does not make me anti LE, I am realistic with LE, not every case is magic like CSI or a Perry Mason moment. And the good ones in LE will tell ya that.

Again just my own opinion. Not speaking for you or anyone else.

Throw what she has to say out, and what do you have?

PF lying about when he last saw Kelsey (caught on camera returning to her house).

PF spending two days with her phone, sending texts and making phone calls, while their phones are right next to each other.

This alone, is absolutely damning.

Then we have countless lies, in the form of conversations with CB, Doss, and most importantly, a recorded phone call with law enforcement.

That’s without forensics, and all the evidence that corroborates her statements.

And all the rest that we don’t know.

 

[Hatfield]

I agree that PF should get convicted but there are bound to be fireworks in PF's trial. KK is just like a jail snitch witness and the jury will hate her IMO. KK has plead guilty and the jury will know it and not like her at all.

And sometimes a single jury member thinks its their mission to get even with the prosecution.

Remember juror #17 in the Jodi Arias trial who was against all the other 11 jurors and managed to cause a mistrial in the sentencing phase.

"She’s known simply as Juror 17. The holdout who hung up the jury in Jodi Arias’s sentencing trial"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-shes-getting-threats/?utm_term=.faa239a46ab9

 

[Eleanor Rigby]

JMO
Its an interesting thought.

Im still struggling with the purse, keys, and KB's cars being left there.

We know they are dumb but still. If they were trying to sell a suicide mission then surely they did not think LE would assume KB walked to Idaho.

And I still am not convinced they burned the body just based on my bias of knowing how difficult it is to even burn wood logs down to complete ash. Unless they had a super large roaring hot fire and about 4-6 hours burn time its just not possible IMO to get a clean burn of a body.

So I think what they did instead was get rid of the body elsewhere. Not sure where. Maybe a father figure of PF's had a wood chipper. Or maybe there is an abandoned gold mine near Cripple Creek. Remember the ex-girlfriend from Dateline said PF knew where he could get rid of a body where nobody would find it. And that was years before KB's murder. So I think maybe PF had a place in the back of his mind for years and finally used the spot he had planned.

I do think KK and PF did burn the Tote and all the other evidence like KB's purse, some of PF's and KK's bloody clothing like her hospital cleanup suit, rubber gloves, etc. in the Tote. So they definitely burned the Tote because it would also have body fluids and odor in it so it needed burned. Im just not convinced they attempted to burn KB's body in it.

And here is another thing about KB's cars. Keys dont burn. So if they attempted to burn the purse and KB's keys were in that purse, then those keys would still be something that would never burn. PF would have had to dump the keys wherever he allegedly dumped the burned tote remains.

Its interesting that very early on we joked about maybe PF stupidly threw KB's purse along with her body down an abandoned mine shaft before realizing her car keys were in the purse. Im starting to now consider that as a real possibility. LOL Maybe that is why they got stuck not being able to remove one of her vehicles. Maybe the original plan was for KK to drive one of her vehicles up into the mountains and abandon it near some deep woods to make it look like she walked off into the woods to off herself.

Its all a confusing mess they created and its almost like they were making up some of the plan as they went along. I think some of their actions cause them to change up some of their original plans because things werent going as they had it first figured.

Anyway, sorry this post got too long with so many musings.

One thing for sure. Its going to be very interesting as we learn more facts and eventually get to the trial.

This is going to be one amazing trial where there are bound to be fireworks in the trial as the Prosecution (i.e. KK) squares off against the Defense (i.e., PF).

Its going to be one heck of a battle at trial and I plan to witness it live one way or another. Hopefully cameras are allowed, and if not then I will have 3 or 4 twitter feeds going and hitting enter every second.

Above BBM:
I have no experience in burning any kind of body, but I, too, wondered about the seemingly quick burn time and the lack of evidence other than melted plastic balls at the
location of the fire. Did a cadaver dog hit there? The reason I thought the reported burn time seemed too short was based solely on my memory of the Tara Grinstead case. In the Up and Vanished podcast, one of the suspects said they burned Tara's body for several days. Is it possible to burn a body completely in a matter of hours if oil and gasoline are used? I don't remember if it was reported what fuel was used in the Grinstead case.

I think you're right that the tote, by the time it was burned, may have contained "only" all the bloody things that had to be disposed of. That might also explain why they apparently weren't worried about driving through town with the odor of a two-day-old corpse emanating from the back of the open pickup. MOO.

Tara Grinstead case: Leaked confession reveals motive behind killing, investigators say
"The burning of Grinstead's body took several days, and they returned to the burn pile only once to re-burn the body and throw trash into the burn pile," agents said Duke told them.

 

[Oregon]

Thanks. I missed that in the documents about the keys.

ETA....The keys should be recoverable if KK is supposed to be cooperating and knows exactly where she was standing when she allegedly threw them over the side. Not sure I believe her about anything though and maybe LE doesnt quite believe her either so could be why they are not searching for them.

The keys are most likely unrecoverable. The gorge is around 250 feet deep, with steep rocky sides. It would be a repelling situation. Significantly worse odds than the landfill search.

 

[MassGuy]

The keys are most likely unrecoverable. The gorge is around 250 feet deep, with steep rocky sides. It would be a repelling situation. Significantly worse odds than the landfill search.

Plus, there isn’t much of an incentive to recover them.

They don’t add much to the case, if anything.

Kelsey’s body on the other hand, would be a very big deal.

 

[Hatfield]

Above BBM:
I have no experience in burning any kind of body, but I, too, wondered about the seemingly quick burn time and the lack of evidence other than melted plastic balls at the
location of the fire. Did a cadaver dog hit there? The reason I thought the reported burn time seemed too short was based solely on my memory of the Tara Grinstead case. In the Up and Vanished podcast, one of the suspects said they burned Tara's body for several days. Is it possible to burn a body completely in a matter of hours if oil and gasoline are used? I don't remember if it was reported what fuel was used in the Grinstead case.

I think you're right that the tote, by the time it was burned, may have contained "only" all the bloody things that had to be disposed of. That might also explain why they apparently weren't worried about driving through town with the odor of a two-day-old corpse emanating from the back of the open pickup. MOO.

Tara Grinstead case: Leaked confession reveals motive behind killing, investigators say
"The burning of Grinstead's body took several days, and they returned to the burn pile only once to re-burn the body and throw trash into the burn pile," agents said Duke told them.

Yeah, Ive burned tons of dead trees and tree limbs and its much harder than people realize to burn things completely down to nothing. One thing that is hard to explain is you typically have to stir the items in the fire and the problem you run into is if you have a very large hot fire then its hard to get yourself near enough to the fire to stir it because its so hot as you try to get close. So you end up using a long metal spiked rake or something to rush in real quick to stir the stuff and then rush out to get away from the heat.

Another thing that convinces me there was no body being burned in the tote is the way KK conveniently says she didnt look in the tote.
So she is trying to tell us that after driving hundreds of miles back and forth for 3 failed attempts at murdering KB, that she would not at least run over to quickly pick up the lid of the tote to take a quick peek at KB's body. That is total BS to me. So once I get convinced she is lying about that then I start to think of other things she may have lied about.

And she can get away with that lie that she thought the body was in the tote being burned. Its her word against his and he is not going to admit to anything so if PF dumped her body down a mine shaft then KK gets to help him out a little bit while still coming across as cooperating with LE.

Unless LE finds KB's burnt remains in the landfill, I am not convinced they burned the body. I think they or just PF did something else with it.

All JMO of course.

 

[Kapua]

On the possible double meaning of the text messages...I'm not normally one to read tons of extra stuff into events, but I do think it's a slight possibility here. His response is rather long and abnormal IMHO.
we may never know for sure..but it's weird enough to be possible in this case.

Another thing I think is possible..I think PF's back up plan was/is to throw KK under the bus as the "real" killer. I think he never gave a cr@p about her (or any woman to be honest) and he wanted her to do it so she would absolutely be set up to take the fall for all of it should something go wrong.

AND....I think KK always had CYA on her mind just in case he was setting her up.

Neither one truly trusts the other..cuz they both know they are both bad.

I think PF's original plan was to have KKL do his dirty work. And if she got caught, oh well. MOO

 

[Hatfield]

Plus, there isn’t much of an incentive to recover them.

They don’t add much to the case, if anything.

Kelsey’s body on the other hand, would be a very big deal.

True. And yeah LE wants to get whatever remains of KB they can recover. Not just for the case but to help KB's family at least have something to be used at a proper funeral for KB. Super important.

 

[Hatfield]

The keys are most likely unrecoverable. The gorge is around 250 feet deep, with steep rocky sides. It would be a repelling situation. Significantly worse odds than the landfill search.

Interestingly, I just watched a show the other day how some gold hunters are using a unique method to find gold coins buried below the ground. And this method could be used to find a set of keys in tough terrain.

Since metal like gold (or a set of keys) retains heat during the day, what the gold hunters were doing is sending up a drone with an infrared camera right as darkness started.

Then their camera was able to spot glowing heat identified objects under the ground and they were marking it with GPS coordinates right from the drone. Then they took a metal detector and shovels and went right to the GPS marked spots. They ended up finding an old gun buried under the dirt.

It was fascinating to watch that method.
They said their infrared cameras could identify heat signatures up to a foot or more below the surface. They didnt find any gold coins during the show but did find that old gun.

 

[MemPat]

Well said. I would like to add to your post and say sadly, we have seen many men do this. She is the harder one to understand and is far more unusual. It does not mean we can understand the men that do it either, just that what she did and her part (just what we know even) is almost unheard of. He unfortunately is like another CW, SP, DP, and on and on and on. And that is not to say no woman has ever murdered nor that any woman has never done such things but it is far less common. What is she? Wtf is she?

You said it better than I can. They both attended supposedly a human bonfire. She cleaned up the blood of the one she wanted gone just as badly. They probably did a jig. They make me sick.

jmo.

It's the months of fantasizing about how to

Interestingly, I just watched a show the other day how some gold hunters are using a unique method to find gold coins buried below the ground. And this method could be used to find a set of keys in tough terrain.

Since metal like gold (or a set of keys) retains heat during the day, what the gold hunters were doing is sending up a drone with an infrared camera right as darkness started.

Then their camera was able to spot glowing heat identified objects under the ground and they were marking it with GPS coordinates right from the drone. Then they took a metal detector and shovels and went right to the GPS marked spots. They ended up finding an old gun buried under the dirt.

It was fascinating to watch that method.
They said their infrared cameras could identify heat signatures up to a foot or more below the surface. They didnt find any gold coins during the show but did find that old gun.

They know KK had KB's phone.

Can someone tell me why the keys would even matter at this point?

 

[Hatfield]

They know KK had KB's phone.

Can someone tell me why the keys would even matter at this point?

Maybe to get more concrete tangible evidence for the trial. Maybe KK threw more than just the keys in that spot.

Tangible evidence seems to be lacking in this case so anything that a jury can touch and feel in a case would probably bolster the case.

LE has plenty of other evidence like electronic phone records and such. Just would be nice if they could get more of the tangible kind that jurors can touch and see for themselves. Jurors like that kind of tangible evidence and if they can get something of KB's that was traveled all the way to Idaho and deposited, I think it could only help the case.

 

[Kapua]

Whatever it is I think it’s pretty serious. As you said to risk life with your children, your family and your career just makes no sense. I just cannot believe it was for love and attention. If for some reason it was she should be sentenced to a psychiatric ward for the rest of her life since she obviously isn’t getting much time behind bars!!
Maybe that’s May’s plan after trial

Someone about 25-30 threads ago told me that it was foolish to try to make sense of this senseless crime. So I am passing on that great perspective. I found it very helpful. MOO

 

[ilovechili]

Yeah, Ive burned tons of dead trees and tree limbs and its much harder than people realize to burn things completely down to nothing. One thing that is hard to explain is you typically have to stir the items in the fire and the problem you run into is if you have a very large hot fire then its hard to get yourself near enough to the fire to stir it because its so hot as you try to get close. So you end up using a long metal spiked rake or something to rush in real quick to stir the stuff and then rush out to get away from the heat.

Another thing that convinces me there was no body being burned in the tote is the way KK conveniently says she didnt look in the tote.
So she is trying to tell us that after driving hundreds of miles back and forth for 3 failed attempts at murdering KB, that she would not at least run over to quickly pick up the lid of the tote to take a quick peek at KB's body. That is total BS to me. So once I get convinced she is lying about that then I start to think of other things she may have lied about.

And she can get away with that lie that she thought the body was in the tote being burned. Its her word against his and he is not going to admit to anything so if PF dumped her body down a mine shaft then KK gets to help him out a little bit while still coming across as cooperating with LE.

Unless LE finds KB's burnt remains in the landfill, I am not convinced they burned the body. I think they or just PF did something else with it.

All JMO of course.

I agree. It is bulls***. Lord knows where KB really was... Not in KK's timeline. Or PF's detailed chatty cathy description to her of the fact KB was in the tote. These two disgust ME. Only the good die young. Billy Joel.

 

[k-mac]

Another thing that convinces me there was no body being burned in the tote is the way KK conveniently says she didnt look in the tote.
So she is trying to tell us that after driving hundreds of miles back and forth for 3 failed attempts at murdering KB, that she would not at least run over to quickly pick up the lid of the tote to take a quick peek at KB's body. That is total BS to me. So once I get convinced she is lying about that then I start to think of other things she may have lied about.

All JMO of course.

rs and bbm

totally!
if you are comfortable cleaning up a brutal bashing murder for your boyfriend (who just happened to be your love rival ) working up an appetite and need to go down for a snack at a restaurant immediately after, you totally are ok with looking at that " beautiful and youthful" competitions gory corpse.

horrific and cold blooded.

oh...and then snack on some pizza after looking cause you know its all just so appetising

moo

 

[Deleted member 102539]

And she can get away with that lie that she thought the body was in the tote being burned. Its her word against his and he is not going to admit to anything so if PF dumped her body down a mine shaft then KK gets to help him out a little bit while still coming across as cooperating with LE.

^^ This.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Ibuprofen? A majority of women have that in their purse. A nurse does not have that with? Or Midol at that age? Or more as a nurse? I have nurses in my family.... PF had to bring her Ibuprofen...

bbm
.... and because KB had helped him to overcome his stomach pains (the name of the disease Idk at the moment) with driving to and from Walmart in the middle of the night (11/22 already, her date of death), he was fit enough to do all the evil things he did, and was fit enough to care for drama rodeo queens' headache ....

Sorry, I'm always full of contempt, when I think about these 2 people PF/KKL.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Someone older.

I'm asking for a friend, my dear father figure: Do you think about someone with much facial hair?

 

[MsBetsy]

Thanks. I missed that in the documents about the keys.

ETA....The keys should be recoverable if KK is supposed to be cooperating and knows exactly where she was standing when she allegedly threw them over the side. Not sure I believe her about anything though and maybe LE doesnt quite believe her either so could be why they are not searching for them.

Are keys really that easy to find in a gorge? I've never seen one but I imagine it to be huge. How do people get to the bottom?

 

[Hatfield]

Are keys really that easy to find in a gorge? I've never seen one but I imagine it to be huge. How do people get to the bottom?

It would most likely be rough because usually there is rocks on the steep edges so the keys could have slipped between some rocks. Which is why I thought of that drone method I saw on that show. They said the infrared cameras can see heat signatures a foot or more down so there would be a chance at least of maybe spotting the keys.

KK should be able to tell LE exactly where she was standing when she threw them into the gorge and so that would help searching for them but it would still be tough to find them of course.

Early on in this case someone volunteered to go visit the gorge area near Idaho and I am betting it was that same gorge. I cant remember if we got any pictures back from the person that visited but there are some online sites that show it. KK would have to know where she was standing.