CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #50 *ARREST*

[Plo_Koon]

It all depends on their relationship, and if he was forthcoming with them in the first place.

It does appear that his brother offered him advice, as shortly after they met with investigators, PF lawyered up.

There’s no way of knowing if it went further than that, or what his family knew.

Per the reports of PM going to the bank and requesting the ATM videos. The second gentleman with him, was that one of his brothers? Or was it one of the guys that went with him to the garbage dump?

 

[Plo_Koon]

I can't disagree, all possible. I can even picture him calling her in himself anonymously after she left with the body lol--speculation only but who knows... This case is pretty twisted as are the characters.

Yes I agree--someone that cheats is generally telling the gf he hates his wife, she is a terrible mother, bad wife, he is with her only for the children, there is no sex, he will leave her one day for the gf (or in this case, not wife but significant other/mother of his child); pretty similar to what he was saying to select neighbors, etc. Then he is telling the wife/SO just the opposite... I think he could use that to manipulate the situation as you said and I also can believe his lies to each were starting to unravel, with one or the other or both and about to collide.

I wonder if we will every truly know everything.

Also, IMO, and personal experience, any girl I have dated in my life who cheated on their significant other at the onset of our relationship, ultimately ended up cheating on me. Glad I learned that lesson before I was too old.

 

[MassGuy]

Per the reports of PM going to the bank and requesting the ATM videos. The second gentleman with him, was that one of his brothers? Or was it one of the guys that went with him to the garbage dump?

I believe this was his older friend, the guy who also picked up a package at KB’s, and said bizarre things to law enforcement at the press conference.

 

[girlhasnoname]

It seems apparent to me that KK possibly endorsed a very violent death for KB. To have gone there with a bat/rod shows she wasn’t thinking quick bullet in the head.

——-

Does anybody believe here that KK really believed PF’s allegations that KB was being abusive to their daughter? I’m wondering as I ponder the above statement re: the level of violence here.

No I don't believe KK ever had a thought baby K was being abused by KB. As a nurse isn't she a mandatory reporter anyway?? I mean if she really wanted to play that card, she could have made a call to CPS.

I believe later in her plea agreement she did admit she really didn't believe it IIRC.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I understand what you're saying, and it's certainly valid points. IMO, I just can't jibe with the thought that a girl who may have been planning to do an act (but never did it -- yet, at the same time, she didn't go to LE as she should have). Originally, I thought you were implying she was more evil than him, and I took issue with that as putting a sweater over your significant others head to "guess candle scents" and then bashing her skull in with a bat to the point you remember teeth being deposited in specific areas, leaving a tote with a corpse in it in a barn while you eat Thanksgiving dinner with your family and then returning to burn the body in a burn pit couldn't certainly be more evil than KK. Don't get me wrong, very, very, VERY vile steps she took, and her speaking up would have prevented this all from happening, but she still never actually took part in the violent murder of a young mother. To be clear, I'm not giving her an excuse or a free pass. She certainly has her share of responsibility.

PF had been trying to get this done for months by a 3rd party due to (potential) manipulative notions on his part. If they were high school sweethearts as I read, perhaps he knew exactly how to manipulate KK. Again, I by no means and claiming her as an innocent victim. Just basing MOO on the fact that she had multiple times to violently murder KB but she still NEVER did. PF tried to farm this out because he wasn't even man enough to do it himself, and then he bashed a promising young girl and mother's skull with a baseball bat. Then went and had a succulent turkey dinner. He certainly is the MOST evil one here.

I don't know if it's been established when PF finally showed up to the ranch or if he did sit down to dinner, but I would imagine it would have affected his appetite.

Yet as KK proved by heading to the Sonic after the bloody cleanup, then downing a couple of slices at the fire, these perps have stomachs of steel.
MOO

 

[Trocroc9]

Because he wanted it done, and didn’t want to wait any longer.

He was ultimately willing to take on the risk, and get his hands dirty.

This type of thing happens quite often. It’s not easy to find a real hitman.

Maybe you are correct but in MOO I don’t know if this actually happens quite often and I will never know how hard it is to a hire a hit man. To keep discussions flowing it’s always nice to speculate on these things without having such certainty. No disrespect meant here but I really think others may have different notions or ideas about what made him finally do this. We don’t have all the details and evidence presented so why not consider alternate possibilities in this case. It’s definitely not an open and shut case at this point.

 

[ilovechili]

I”m not sure there is such a thing as an ideal plea deal witness.

Hence the plea deal in the first place.

One things for sure, with all the time between now and trial she will be prepped extensively

No kidding. So very true with a plea deal witness. Which I said nothing about.

 

[Spyderlady]

I would agree. She had to say things like she was scared of him, she believed KB was awful and abusive, she TRIED to leave a trail for police, etc. to justify her sick and twisted actions. She knows how evil she looks otherwise. To me she still looks that evil, doesn't fool me one bit. jmo.

I agree too. I can’t get it out of my head that KK really is the “jealous other woman.” Isn't it possible she told PF they couldn’t have a relationship if KB was in the picture? As far as I know, we only have her word that it was totally his idea to kill KB. KK didn’t report him to LE possibly because she was jealous and wanted KB dead as much as he did. Right now, I feel she's just as complicit... but I’m trying to keep an open mind.

 

[GordianKnot]

The credibility of a witness is a matter of opinion. You posted: If CB is saying it, I absolutely believe it .

Quoting the Amended Complaint of Wrongful Death dated Feb 15, 2019, Plaintiffs DB and CB:

"...
32. Plaintiffs have suffered and continue to suffer severe emotional distress caused by Frazee's extreme and outrageous conduct to include, but not limited to:
a. Insomnia, b. Stress, c. Muscle and back pain, d. Headaches, e. Gastrointestinal problems, f. Weight loss, g. Loss of appetite, h. Anxiety, i. Depression

33. The above manifestations of severe emotional distress commenced following Frazee's extreme and outrageous conduct set forth in paragraphs 10-19 above. [paragraph 10 states November 22, 2018]

Attestations to courts are not mere chit-chat or TV interviews. So which is it? Is CB healthy and mentally fit to care for the baby as she told the custody Court before or on Feb 7, 2019? Or is CB suffering from severe emotional distress, anxiety and depression, so bad that there are multiple physical manifestations, and she needs $75,000 in damages? If CB is so sick and mentally ill, should she be caring for the baby? Or is CB not really all that sick and mentally ill, so it's okay for her to care for the baby, but then why make these claims in a federal lawsuit if it's not a big deal?

And if I were the Frazee custody attorney, I would have copied that Amended Complaint and filed an emergency motion to the custody Court, for the sake of the child in the physical custody of someone who one week after the last custody hearing claimed to the federal Court to have so many severe health and emotional issues. Does the custody Court know about this?

RSABBMFF:

Well. I am not the op, but I'm going to take a moment to respond to this post, as
there are some characterizations you have made with which I respectfully disagree:

• Experiencing severe emotional distress as a result of a traumatic loss does mean an individual is "mentally ill."

• Experiencing physical symptoms as a result of a traumatic loss does not mean an individual is "sick."

• Experiencing severe emotional distress and accompanying physical symptoms does not mean that someone is incapacitated to the point of being unable to function or to properly nurture and care for a child.

People every single day are confronted with the shock of unexpected tragedies, accidents, deaths and traumatic events. Even in the midst of profound grief and loss, many people have an amazing capacity to soldier on, and to show incredible grace, strength and perseverance in the face of devastating circumstances. They are able to continue to function as loving, responsible spouses, parents and grandparents.

Their lives go on. Their lives are forever changed, and forever diminished, but they force themselves to go on, for the sake of those remaining.

DB and CB are two such inspiring individuals.
Clearly.
The court has already recognized this by awarding them temporary custody of Baby K.
So there's that.

If I were the Frazee custody attorney, the very last thing that I would want to do would be to highlight the traumatic grief and loss PF violently inflicted upon DB and CB.

"Your Honor, clearly these people have been emotionally damaged by the fact that my client violently bashed their daughter's head to a bloody pulp with a baseball bat. Because my client's gruesome, cold-blooded murder of their daughter has caused them severe emotional distress, they cannot possibly care for their grandchild," doesn't exactly sound like a winning argument to me.


JMO.

 

[ilovechili]

Also, IMO, and personal experience, any girl I have dated in my life who cheated on their significant other at the onset of our relationship, ultimately ended up cheating on me. Glad I learned that lesson before I was too old.

Agree. What they say is true too, if she cheated on her husband, she will cheat on you too. Or he, etc. Most likely anyhow, there may be a rare case where someone grows up and changes.

The other thing that is generally true is the one accusing of cheating is often the cheater. As with PF bringing up KB's former boyfriend and hinting at such. imo anyhow.

I also think if they trash their signifcant other to you, one day that will be you they are trashing.

Again imo.

 

[k-mac]

I agree with you. I'm all for bashing KK. And the issue is not so much bashing her for her looks (though that is problematic) but that it's only done in the case of a woman. Women's looks, weight, hair, you name it are fair game for any nasty comments anyone wants to make. PF's looks (which, like KK's, are no better or worse than average) have not been the subject of weeks and weeks of analysis, and never would be no matter what he looked like.

That's the problem for me.

i agree I am not comfortable putting people down for their looks.
specifically with kk I don't find her anything to pass judgement on really.
she is quite a pretty 30 something yr old mum who is a little over weight...so what..... most of the population are exactly the same.
but in saying that ...I agree with others that KBs looks likely bothered KK and probably helped form her jealousy issues and there for her VANITY shines through and knowing about her eating that day, she kinda brought the criticism about herself. imo

I disagree about the men not getting criticised though.
never have I seen a mans looks bashing like PF has received here!!!hahahaha
have you not seen the herman references??

hes copped plenty

 

[MassGuy]

Maybe you are correct but in MOO I don’t know if this actually happens quite often and I will never know how hard it is to a hire a hit man. To keep discussions flowing it’s always nice to speculate on these things without having such certainty. No disrespect meant here but I really think others may have different notions or ideas about what made him finally do this. We don’t have all the details and evidence presented so why not consider alternate possibilities in this case. It’s definitely not an open and shut case at this point.

I say this because it is a fact. In general, it is not easy to find someone willing to kill for you.

There are plenty of cases that illustrate how hard it tends to be.

Look at the troubles of guys like Allen Blackthorne (who did eventually find a hitman, after the buck was passed from his friend, to another friend, to a cousin of that friend).

Stephen Allwine recently tried to hire a hitman on the dark web, and ended up killing his wife himself.

48 Hours recently aired a piece on people who had taken their search for a hitman, to the dark web.

Fortunately, the service they contacted, was a scam.

A subsequent investigation led to law enforcement organizations pursuing charges against several people who had been shopping for hitmen.

This ain’t the movies; one does not simply pick up a phone, and have someone killed.

 

[girlhasnoname]

The credibility of a witness is a matter of opinion. You posted: If CB is saying it, I absolutely believe it .

Quoting the Amended Complaint of Wrongful Death dated Feb 15, 2019, Plaintiffs DB and CB:

"...
32. Plaintiffs have suffered and continue to suffer severe emotional distress caused by Frazee's extreme and outrageous conduct to include, but not limited to:
a. Insomnia, b. Stress, c. Muscle and back pain, d. Headaches, e. Gastrointestinal problems, f. Weight loss, g. Loss of appetite, h. Anxiety, i. Depression

33. The above manifestations of severe emotional distress commenced following Frazee's extreme and outrageous conduct set forth in paragraphs 10-19 above. [paragraph 10 states November 22, 2018]

35. As a result of the actions of Frazee, the Plaintiffs have sustained past and future injuries, damages, and losses.
..."

The Amended Complaint goes on to request $75,000 plus costs.

*
On Dec 21, 2018, the Custody Court granted a Temporary Emergency Custody Order giving physical custody of baby K to DB and CB. Additional hearings in this matter occurred on Dec 27, Jan 3, and Feb 7, continuing the physical custody of baby K with DB and CB. Baby K is a citizen of Colorado, yet has been physically removed to Idaho.

Although custody hearings are closed to the public, there is some obvious paperwork and testimony. CB and DB would have had to file documents about their ability to care for the child. Additionally, every custody Court (Judge) will orally inquire and receive answers regarding the basic information: Do you have an adequate permanent residence? Do you have sufficient financial resources? Do you have any health problems, physical or mental impairments? The Court would be completely remiss if these issues were not specifically addressed before handing off a baby to anyone.

As I bolded above, the text of the Amended Complaint filed Feb 15, 2019 covers all time periods since Nov 22, 2018 into the indefinite future, and that includes all of the custody hearings to date.

Attestations to courts are not mere chit-chat or TV interviews. So which is it? Is CB healthy and mentally fit to care for the baby as she told the custody Court before or on Feb 7, 2019? Or is CB suffering from severe emotional distress, anxiety and depression, so bad that there are multiple physical manifestations, and she needs $75,000 in damages? If CB is so sick and mentally ill, should she be caring for the baby? Or is CB not really all that sick and mentally ill, so it's okay for her to care for the baby, but then why make these claims in a federal lawsuit if it's not a big deal?

As a witness in a criminal trial where credibility is an issue regarding all testimony about spoken statements, which is it? Is it what CB told the custody Court, or is it what she told the federal Court?

I'm certain I will be reported for victim-bashing, but these are simply facts. I am not even offering an opinion on CB's credibility, but I do see where a Defense attorney will go here.

And if I were the Frazee custody attorney, I would have copied that Amended Complaint and filed an emergency motion to the custody Court, for the sake of the child in the physical custody of someone who one week after the last custody hearing claimed to the federal Court to have so many severe health and emotional issues. Does the custody Court know about this?

So you truly think it's reasonable to demand that CB is one or the other in this instance? Both are truthful statements and suffering from the symptoms she described does not necessarily hinder her ability to care for baby K. If that were true, any mother out there suffering from similar emotional and physical stress wouldn't be fit either I suppose.

If the defense if stupid enough to attack the victim's mother who is raising the grandchild that the accused bashed in with a baseball bat, then great news for those of us who thinks this needs to rot behind bars. MOO

 

[GordianKnot]

I disagree about the men not getting criticised though.
never have I seen a mans looks bashing like PF has received here!!!hahahaha
have you not seen the herman references??

hes copped plenty

RSABBM:

I must admit, I'm surprised to hear that some are claiming we have not been criticizing PF enough. Himself of the Herman Muenster haircut.

 

[ilovechili]

I agree too. I can’t get it out of my head that KK really is the “jealous other woman.” Isn't it possible she told PF they couldn’t have a relationship if KB was in the picture? As far as I know, we only have her word that it was totally his idea to kill KB. KK didn’t report him to LE possibly because she was jealous and wanted KB dead as much as he did. Right now, I feel she's just as complicit... but I’m trying to keep an open mind.

I think most can see this in her and have known such types and if they have, it is why they can see it here. Others never see such things. I agree. She wanted her gone. She would never have done one thing to stop it. And in fact probably fed into the fury and the fire of the entire thing. I try to keep an open mind too but I feel I recognize the type, have seen a few in my lifetime, (not that murdered however or were complicit or a cohort, thank goodness but their games can go quite far, tire slashing, showing up at the other woman's house, stalking, more). They chase the guy like they are desperate for him in an often embarrassing way (although some do their best to hide it) and do their best to help poison (no pun intended) his mind against the one he is with. So I agree, I think they both had their reasons. She does and is going to look like what she is imo. Her "reasons" for what she did are ridiculous and refuted in what is already out there and in her own behavior and statement.

ETA: in my opinion

 

[ilovechili]

RSABBM:

I must admit, I'm surprised to hear that some are claiming we have not been criticizing PF enough. Himself of the Herman Muenster haircut.

I have to say I like Herman's bangs better. Must have a different barber than PF's....

 

[PommyMommy]

Sam Kraemer on Twitter
Woodland Park Police posting a couple updates today. First, thanking Safeway for providing food as their landfill search continues. Second, clarifying that another Idaho woman is not connected to the presumed murder, as some outlets reported this week. @KOAA #KelseyBerreth

 

[Trocroc9]

Without her car. No wonder everyone realizes he is a dolt.

MassGuy, do you think PF sought out or was given any information by his LE family members?

I’m sure he had keys to her car. He didn’t move it. He had another plan in my opinion.

 

[SandyQLS]

That's true, she looks that way to us, but I don't know a jury necessarily sees it that way. Some jurors may look at it as without her finally coming clean, we may know even less than we did now. And what if the jury pool consists of a good number of females who have been in a manipulative relationship? That could change the jury (jury only) potential outlook at the case as a whole. I have no doubt that PF was probably planning on ultimately making it look like KK was a jealous other woman who took it upon herself to murder KB and PF is completely innoncent. IMO, that's the route I saw being set up in the earlier court proceedings where PF's lawyer made some comment about, "PF never had actually verbatim instructed you to do these things" (that's not a direct quote - just a paraphrase.

You are correct. From the Defense questioning of CBI Slater at the end of the Prelim, thread#39, page 105:

Sam Kraemer‏ @SamKraemerTV
Defense pointing out fact that Frazee never blatantly said he wanted Krystal to kill Kelsey Berreth. Slater agrees. Kenney felt like Frazee was just “pulling her chain”. Kenney is the one who suggested putting ambien in the macchiato. @KOAA #KrystalKenney#PatrickFrazee

That admission by CBI Agent Slater has huge ramifications. It pretty much ends the three solicitations charges, too. JMO

 

[MassGuy]

You are correct. From the Defense questioning of CBI Slater at the end of the Prelim, thread#39, page 105:

Sam Kraemer‏ @SamKraemerTV
Defense pointing out fact that Frazee never blatantly said he wanted Krystal to kill Kelsey Berreth. Slater agrees. Kenney felt like Frazee was just “pulling her chain”. Kenney is the one who suggested putting ambien in the macchiato. @KOAA #KrystalKenney#PatrickFrazee

That admission by CBI Agent Slater has huge ramifications. It pretty much ends the three solicitations charges, too. JMO

False. Hence the fact that the judge determined that there was enough evidence to proceed forward with all the charges.

I have not seen any legal expert, express a similar take.

This is nonsense.