Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #11

[rickcross]

The killer/s would sure wish for that.

The news of a security camera panned on the driveway and entrance is very significant. Because if a suspect was sighted entering the Sherman residence in or around the time of the double homicides regardless of any disguise, out goes a defence based on m/s.

Onward from there though, I can’t help but be reminded of Kerry Winter’s accomplice/helper theory.

Not really understanding your reasoning here. The neighbour obviously didn't see anything out of the ordinary but for the man in the car the week before the crime. You also mentioned that the security camera "panned" on the driveway. Do you have a source to verify that the camera panned? It would be most unusual for a home security system to have panning cameras.

 

[MistyWaters]

Not really understanding your reasoning here. The neighbour obviously didn't see anything out of the ordinary but for the man in the car the week before the crime. You also mentioned that the security camera "panned" on the driveway. Do you have a source to verify that the camera panned? It would be most unusual for a home security system to have panning cameras.

There’s no link to “the neighbour obviously didn’t see anything out of the ordinary...”. This is only your assumption. This neighbour is obviously not leading the investigation. For all we know TPS gathered dozens of hours of pertinent video from Dec 13th.

Is there a reason it seems important to you to insist this woman didn’t hand over critical evidence? Regardless what was seen, security video of the driveway and entrance to the Sherman home on Dec 13th is very significant to the investigation.

My reference to panned - “the view”.

 

[dotr]

Personal, intimate, passionate desire.. So no romantic interests, whether known to each of the Shermans or not?
Complete speculation, imo.
June 14 2018 rbbm.
WARMINGTON: Nothing but silence six months after mysterious Barry and Honey Sherman deaths
"And despite there being dozens of security cameras in the area, there has been no surveillance images or video evidence released"
"There are so many mysteries in this case but nothing is more mysterious as somebody being able to get in and out of the Sherman house, commit this heinous act without leaving any forensic or physical trail, avoiding getting caught on video and slipping away without a trace."
Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
"Police found no evidence of a break-in, and the manner in which the Shermans were killed was personal, even intimate."

"The official cause of death for both was “ligature neck compression,” meaning strangulation by a cord or belt—painful, terrifying, and indicating a passionate desire to see them suffer. Then again, the tidiness of the scene suggested the work of professionals."
AUDIO, Bloomberg article.
The Unsolved Murder of a Mysterious Billionaire, Read Aloud

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Post from ldlager last week...

This story was originally reported over a week ago- I heard it first on CFRB 1010 radio early/mid last week, on the same day that the story about demolishing the house came out. This story about the video was originally promoted by the local media as a major development, because the neighbor said that they had given the video to LE, and that LE hadn't bothered to investigate it- the media was questioning why LE hadn't acted on it. Then sanity prevailed- firstly, how would anyone know whether the police had acted on it or not? Then CFRB reported that the neighbor admitted that in fact the video had been shot a week or two prior to the murders having taken place, NOT the day before they were discovered. Finally, the media accepted that it could be someone as innocent as a realtor waiting for clients, the cleaning people, etc. Given all this doubt and uncertainty , the story was quickly dropped from CFRB's news reports.
I know the article linked above indicates the video was from the day before the bodies were found, but I believe this is inaccurate- the details about the man in a car, getting in and out of the car, etc. are the same as what was reported by CFRB, and subsequently dismissed, so this is likely the same incident.

So assuming ldlager's post is correct, what exactly do we know?

- There was a security camera pointed at the Sherman home.
- The neighbour reviewed the tape, going back at least a week or two
- The only thing out of the ordinary occurred one or two weeks prior to the crime
- Nobody was seen approaching the residence or entering the residence in the day prior to the crime.

As there were no signs of forced entry it has been speculated that the killer either entered using the lockbox, or waited and ambushed Honey as she returned home. It seems this video didn't show either of those things happening. So how did the killer get in the house?

There are 9 entrances. They could have accessed the home at a point not within the scope of CCTV cameras.

 

[rickcross]

There are 9 entrances. They could have accessed the home at a point not within the scope of CCTV cameras.

Were any of those entrances compromised? I thought that the original theory was that the killer had to enter via the front door (lock box) or they had to have accosted one of the Shermans as they arrived home because there was no evidence that any of the entrances were forced? So if they didn't come in through the back, and the video didn't show anybody coming in through the front, how did they get in?

 

[human]

On WS, there have been numerous cases solved. It is always amazing in terms of what LE knows and did not reveal when we read the trial.

 

[MistyWaters]

On WS, there have been numerous cases solved. It is always amazing in terms of what LE knows and did not reveal when we read the trial.

I agree, most often what’s learned at the trial is a total re-set compared to prior theories. While LE never admits it, I’m certain during the investigative phase they intentionally mislead the public to put the suspect off guard. Smoke and mirrors, why not use it to their advantage.

Just an example, in the tragic triple murder of the Likness couple and their grandson from Calgary, LE had video of the suspects green truck circling at night of the kidnapping/murder but for some reason they also asked everyone who had attended an estate sale earlier in the day to go to a community hall to provide a statement. Turned out attendees at the sale were not connected whatsoever but countless theories placed a possible suspect in the centre. Meanwhile a family member close to the victims ID’d the suspects green truck so LE didn’t really require the public’s assistance to ID it, even though it appeared so. My best guess, the photo of the green truck was deliberately released to rattle the suspect because prior to that, he had no idea he was seen.

Which reminds me of the recent news of the security video with a View of the driveway and entrance in this particular case.

 

[deugirtni]

Were any of those entrances compromised? I thought that the original theory was that the killer had to enter via the front door (lock box) or they had to have accosted one of the Shermans as they arrived home because there was no evidence that any of the entrances were forced? So if they didn't come in through the back, and the video didn't show anybody coming in through the front, how did they get in?

1. "Were any of those entrances compromised?" - Unfortunately, police have not shared this information with the public (other than after a quick look after the bodies were found)
2. "I thought that the original theory was that the killer had to enter via the front door (lock box) or they had to have accosted one of the Shermans as they arrived home because there was no evidence that any of the entrances were forced?" - That is assuming that the (only) information shared by police, which was on day#1 based on first-glance immediately following the discovery of the bodies, did not change after police had a chance to fully examine each entry and lockset from reportedly nine entrances. And what if one of those 9 entries was not locked and therefore wouldn't have required a 'forced entry'?
3. "So if they didn't come in through the back, and the video didn't show anybody coming in through the front, how did they get in?" - We don't know that the killer(s) did not come in through the back; we also don't know if this neighbor's video has 'night vision' which would show what's happening in the dark. So therefore, wouldn't it be wide open as to how the killer(s) got in? Nine entries. Could have been pitch black at the time the killer(s) entered. Killer(s) could potentially have entered on a different day and hung out in the furnace room or some other unused room. Killer(s) could potentially have slipped in when B came home from the office one day when it was dark, and hung out in the garage. Imho, it would be wrong to close our minds to any possibilities, considering our lack of info - that is how things get discounted and/or missed. Hopefully police aren't discounting any possibilities!

 

[MistyWaters]

Were any of those entrances compromised? I thought that the original theory was that the killer had to enter via the front door (lock box) or they had to have accosted one of the Shermans as they arrived home because there was no evidence that any of the entrances were forced? So if they didn't come in through the back, and the video didn't show anybody coming in through the front, how did they get in?

The Russian mafia has some sort a unique means of entering the home? Dropping from the sky maybe? I don’t know, this was your theory a day or so ago.

I’d guess Russian mafia but that’s just a guess. Who would have contracted them is the bigger question though.

 

[ldlager]

This IS an interesting tidbit of info, isn't it? At first thought, it would seem to me that LE most likely already determined the identity of that man in the car some time ago. But then again, the Shermans would have been deceased at the time that man went inside the house, so... I don't know what to make of it.

As I posted before, cfrb radio in toronto, which originally aired the story, subsequently reported that the video was actually filmed a week or two before the murders, not after the murders

 

[casesensitive]

I agree, most often what’s learned at the trial is a total re-set compared to prior theories. While LE never admits it, I’m certain during the investigative phase they intentionally mislead the public to put the suspect off guard. Smoke and mirrors, why not use it to their advantage.

Just an example, in the tragic triple murder of the Likness couple and their grandson from Calgary, LE had video of the suspects green truck circling at night of the kidnapping/murder but for some reason they also asked everyone who had attended an estate sale earlier in the day to go to a community hall to provide a statement. Turned out attendees at the sale were not connected whatsoever but countless theories placed a possible suspect in the centre. Meanwhile a family member close to the victims ID’d the suspects green truck so LE didn’t really require the public’s assistance to ID it, even though it appeared so. My best guess, the photo of the green truck was deliberately released to rattle the suspect because prior to that, he had no idea he was seen.

Which reminds me of the recent news of the security video with a View of the driveway and entrance in this particular case.

I am hopeful that LE have meaningful CCTV evidence to support their decision of double homicide. I have determined imho, that in most cases, LE will not release video to ask for public assistance when they have a viable suspect under investigation or surveillance. They tend to release video when they are desperate for leads, or have lost sight of the suspect. Maybe it's good news that they haven't released any CCTV's video and asked for public help, or maybe they don't have any relevant CCTV evidence to release. Isn't this fun trying to figure out what LE are working with? Hope we find out one day.

In the case Misty noted, I do think LE needed to rule out all of the people who had been in the house for the "moving sale" day that turned out to be the day they were murdered. Even if they suspected the guy shown diving by in his truck, they had to check out every potential suspect to justify their own investigation of zeroing in on one person, and to preclude any defense in court that they didn't look at other possible suspects.

 

[Tripod]

As I posted before, cfrb radio in toronto, which originally aired the story, subsequently reported that the video was actually filmed a week or two before the murders, not after the murders[/QUOT
Thanks for the extra clarification for me, ld. I'd been skimming posts, so didn't fully understand that.

 

[rickcross]

The Russian mafia has some sort a unique means of entering the home? Dropping from the sky maybe? I don’t know, this was your theory a day or so ago.

Obviously, since nobody here seems to be able to come up with any kind of reasonable explanation as to how the killer actually entered the house, covert tactics were obviously used. I would suggest that a group like the Russian Mafia would do their homework. They'd know that there were cameras in the area, they'd know Barry usually came home later, they'd know about cameras in the neighbourhood, and they'd know what car Barry drove. They would Identify the weakest link in the security chain. Barry's car was old and likely had no security system. They likely knew that he parked in the garage and entered the house through the garage door. If I were going to get in to that house unseen I'd wait until most employees had left Apotex, use a slim jim to enter Barry's car and hide in the back, then overpower him once inside his garage.

This certainly explains how the killer could enter the house without being seen and without any forced entry being detected. The only piece of the puzzle I can't figure out is how the killer left without being detected?

 

[ldlager]

Obviously, since nobody here seems to be able to come up with any kind of reasonable explanation as to how the killer actually entered the house, covert tactics were obviously used. I would suggest that a group like the Russian Mafia would do their homework. They'd know that there were cameras in the area, they'd know Barry usually came home later, they'd know about cameras in the neighbourhood, and they'd know what car Barry drove. They would Identify the weakest link in the security chain. Barry's car was old and likely had no security system. They likely knew that he parked in the garage and entered the house through the garage door. If I were going to get in to that house unseen I'd wait until most employees had left Apotex, use a slim jim to enter Barry's car and hide in the back, then overpower him once inside his garage.

This certainly explains how the killer could enter the house without being seen and without any forced entry being detected. The only piece of the puzzle I can't figure out is how the killer left without being detected?

Some posters here would say that the killer never left the house.....

 

[WINDSOR]

Some stuff I believe to be true,
1) Real estate agents will often inspect a home alone if they have not seen it previously, prior to showing it to clients. A good agent wants to be familiar with the home prior to walking clients through.
2) A good covert 'entry specialist', can get into almost any locked home with little or no signs of entry. Sometimes, as mentioned before, it is with the unknowing assistance of the victim(s).
3) Having a key, makes entry even easier. If this murder was in the planning stages for some period of time, getting a key copied, would have been practical.
4) TPS knows pretty well what actually occurred, and have a pretty good idea who was involved. By the fact they are not asking for help from the public, posting videos , having press conferences, and have not assigned a huge task force to the case, leads me to this conclusion.
5) If some of those involved in this crime reside overseas, that would delay possible arrests, especially if Canada does not have an extradition treaty with a country. Here are some of the countries Canada does not have extradition treaties with.
Afghanistan
Algeria
Armenia
Azerbaijan
Bahrain
Belarus
Bosnia and Herzegowina
Bulgaria
Burkina Faso
Burundi
China
Costa Rica
Croatia
Djibouti
Dominican Republic
Egypt
Georgia
Honduras
Indonesia
Iran (Islamic Republic of)
Iraq
Jordan
Kazakhstan
Korea, Democratic People's Rep. (North Korea)
Kuwait
Kyrgyzstan
Lebanon
Libya
Macedonia
Moldova, Republic of
Morocco
Oman
Palestinian National Authority
Qatar
Russian Federation
Saudi Arabia
Serbia and Montenegro
Turkey
Turkmenistan
Ukraine
United Arab Emirates
Uzbekistan
Venezuela
Yemen

 

[rickcross]

Some posters here would say that the killer never left the house.....

Is that what you believe?

 

[human]

Why would someone filled with massive abilities such as Russians do such a crime? They could have easily fixed a car to careen off into an accident.

They could have givien Honey some kind of drug to have an illness that killer her.

If they wanted to send a message, they could have killed them and sent a message to intended people that they would be next.

No need for the drama

 

[rickcross]

Why would someone filled with massive abilities such as Russians do such a crime? They could have easily fixed a car to careen off into an accident.

They could have givien Honey some kind of drug to have an illness that killer her.

If they wanted to send a message, they could have killed them and sent a message to intended people that they would be next.

No need for the drama

Possibly they wanted information before they killed them? I agree with your thinking though. My question is whoever did this, why didn't they just put a bullet in their heads? Why such an elaborate setup?

 

[human]

Possibly they wanted information before they killed them? I agree with your thinking though. My question is whoever did this, why didn't they just put a bullet in their heads? Why such an elaborate setup?

Exactly.

They had to know that no one was going to show up at the house that evening.

It seems like someone who hates them and wants to humiliate them.

 

[rickcross]

Exactly.

They had to know that no one was going to show up at the house that evening.

It seems like someone who hates them and wants to humiliate them.

But who does that aside from the villains in the old Batman TV show? The murders were not efficient by any standard and I struggle to find any sort of comparable crimes.