Was Burke Involved # 5

[UKGuy]

Just wanted to ask: what do we know about Burke's relationship with JB? Did they get along well? Were there any other incidents similar to the golf club one? I remember reading somewhere that JB would sometimes sleep in Burke's room - which would suggest they got along fine - though I'm not sure if this is fact or not.

apabld,

what do we know about Burke's relationship with JB?

Not enough.

I remember reading somewhere that JB would sometimes sleep in Burke's room - which would suggest they got along fine - though I'm not sure if this is fact or not.

Its fact according to Patsy. She told an interviewer that JonBenet and Burke shared a bedroom on Christmas Eve and that this was a regular thing.

My take on that is Patsy was attempting to smooth the edges on what she knew was a questionable relationship, i.e. the one we do not know enough about !

Also I reckon on Christmas Day Night Burke and JonBenet just carried on and shared the bedroom, for some reason it did not bother Patsy. Consider those neglect or abuse charges levelled by the GJ.

The general background or Victmology to JonBenet's death is that she was cocooned inside a lavish lifestyle with only her brother to play with, if at all?

Patsy's interest in JonBenet was professional, JonBenet was Patsy's maternal project, with pageant venues to visit, singing and dancing lessons, pageant outfits to purchase, schooling was really a social agenda for Patsy where she could make friends etc.

So with John away regularly on business trips, Patsy taken up with her social causes, JonBenet and Burke were left alone in a large house to amuse themselves. Burke would have friends stay for sleepovers, check out who his friends were.

We do not have a schedule of dates relating to John's business trips or Patsy's social engagements but know enough to speculate that these circumstances led to JonBenet becoming a vulnerable victim.


So thats why we do not know enough, just enough to sketch a victimology, but not enough to be certain.


.

 

[apabld]

So thats why we do not know enough, just enough to sketch a victimology, but not enough to be certain.

Ah, I see. Thank you for your thoughts UKGuy.

 

[Veronica Lodge]

1. Burke was sent away the morning of December 26. I suppose you could argue that if Burke did it, his parents would be disgusted at him and would not want to see or talk to him. However, I still feel that if your child had killed their sibling, you would protect them at all costs and would not send them away - where they could spill information to anyone.

apabld, I used to have similar questions to you regarding Burke. Sadly, the more I learn about the case, the more I see how BDI I too, used to think that his parents would not have sent him away BUT I think now that by doing so, it was easier for all of them to play their roles. All Burke had to do was repeat that he had heard nothing and slept through the night, shrug and keep playing his Nintendo. Rewatching his interviews, I can now see how Burke could have easily done this. Which takes me to your Q.2...

2. John and Patsy allowed Burke to be formally interviewed (by Dr. Bernhard) just a few weeks after the murder, without a lawyer present. They had to be dead certain Burke would not buckle under the pressure of questioning. There are certain segments of the interview that seem suspicious, but Burke seemed to be open to answering most of the questions. Also, Bernhard concluded that Burke was not involved.

I think they knew that Burke would continue to say that he didn't hear anything that night as he'd had two weeks practicing his story by then. He tells her that he hasn't been going to school to stay away from the media - that's enough time at home to firm up his version of events for a smart kid. We don't get to see the full interview, unfortunately, but what we do see is worrying.
83. On January 8, 1997, Burke was interviewed with his parents’ consent and outside of their presence by a psychologist, Dr. Suzanne Bernhard, who concluded in writing on her report to the Boulder PD that it was clear to her that Burke did not witness the murder of his sister.
http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w...-CBS-Complaint-with-Exhibits-reduced-size.pdf

Hmm, he may not have witnessed the murder because he'd been sent to his room by that stage? So, technically, he didn't witness the murder of his sister.

3. The Grand Jury indictment of Patsy and John mentions that they aided someone who was accused of first degree murder. Burke was under 10 at the time of the JB's death, and could not be accused of this type of crime.

I don't know enough about legal things to answer this one. Maybe he could be accused of the crime, but not convicted of it due to age?? Again, I think Burke was back in his bedroom shortly after his parents 'took over' anyway.

For those that believe BDI, are there still aspects of the case that make you uncertain?

Yes! That's why I visit here now and then, to try firm things up in my mind. I wish I didn't believe BDI you know? It just seems to make the whole tragedy even worse somehow. But so much now points to him being heavily involved - the bloody pineapple, the train tracks, the nightgown, the size 12 underpants, the ripped presents, the knife, the strange behaviour in his interviews (his answers and pauses etc). I certainly don't think BDI all. I think BD some of I.

 

[Dragognosis]

Burke had nothing to do with any of it.

 

[Kakidoll]

i think that wording was VERY specific and reading between those lines tells me, or convinces me, even more that Burke was NOT there at the time of 'death'. Because he was sent to his ROOM. ... NOT because he wasn't involved.

 

[fr brown]

I think that the "CSI note" that Kolar has referred to can be attributed to Holly Smith, who in an interview with Fox 31 mentioned a red satin candy box with a "secret" stash of candy. She then talked about most of JonBenet's underwear being stained by feces. If a candy box has a secret stash of candy, it's probably in a drawer.

It seems at least possible that Kolar conflated these two things and came up with a "feces-smeared candy box."

Actually, Smith just said it was a red satin box (with a secret stash of candy).

If the box was in a drawer with the underwear, an investigative note might read like this: "...feces-stained underwear and red satin box...." Kolar might then interpret "feces-stained" as modifying both "underwear" and "box." I suppose that would be justified: I was taught by some world-class grammar nazis to put an "a" in front (in this case, in front of "red satin box") to avoid that situation. Don't know if that's what happened.

If a CSI rolled in on the third day, JonBenet's feces-stained velvet pants would already have been collected. Could the CSI have been looking at a photograph with its description and then written something like "velvet pants, feces-stained, too big for 6yo girl? Pajamas Burke?" Again, don't know if that's what happened. The "Burkian pajamas" don't seem to have made it into the tv program.

 

[UKGuy]

Actually, Smith just said it was a red satin box (with a secret stash of candy).

If the box was in a drawer with the underwear, an investigative note might read like this: "...feces-stained underwear and red satin box...." Kolar might then interpret "feces-stained" as modifying both "underwear" and "box." I suppose that would be justified: I was taught by some world-class grammar nazis to put an "a" in front (in this case, in front of "red satin box") to avoid that situation. Don't know if that's what happened.

If a CSI rolled in on the third day, JonBenet's feces-stained velvet pants would already have been collected. Could the CSI have been looking at a photograph with its description and then written something like "velvet pants, feces-stained, too big for 6yo girl? Pajamas Burke?" Again, don't know if that's what happened. The "Burkian pajamas" don't seem to have made it into the tv program.

fr brown,
Here are the quotes for those lost in the soiled pants saga:

Fox 31 News, Nov 13, 2006

Holly Smith remembers walking up the steps to the Ramsey home: the big candy canes more jarring than festive considering the circumstances. The house was lavishly decorated. Smith recalls, "It was big and it was meandering and it was schmanzy fancy." It was the third day of the investigation into the murder of JonBenet Ramsey. Smith was head of the Boulder County Sexual Abuse team and has been called into the investigation, as she says, "to consult about some of the dynamics and some of the things people suspected might be going on with this case."

She started, as always, with a visit to the child’s bedroom. "That's a really important piece of getting a real feel for a family," Smith explains. With portfolio pictures galore and closets full of JonBenet’s elaborate pageant outfits, Smith says she had a hard time getting a feel for who the little girl really was, even in her bedroom. She recalls, "I just had a sense the type of decor in her bedroom was not really a child's decor." One poignant find that she does recall was a red satin box with what looked like JonBenet’s secret stash of candy.

She found something else in the room, however, which raised an immediate red flag. Smith says most of the panties in JonBenet’s dresser drawers had been soiled with fecal material. "There is this dynamic of children that have been sexually abused sometimes soiling themselves or urinating in their beds to keep someone who is hurting them at bay," explains Smith. JonBenet also had a history of bedwetting. While Smith points out there could be innocent explanations, this was the kind of information that raised questions. "It's very different for every child, but when you have a child that's had this problem and it's pretty chronic for that child, and in addition you know some sort of physical evidence or trauma or an allegation, you put all those little pieces together and it just goes in your head," she says.

Smith adds, "There was an indication of trauma in the vaginal area." The coroner's autopsy discovered evidence investigators say indicates JonBenet suffered vaginal trauma the night she was murdered. However the autopsy report also describes evidence of possible prior vaginal trauma. Experts disagree about the significance of that. It could indicate previous injury or infection, a sign of abuse, or nothing at all. Arapahoe County Coroner Dr. Michael Doberson says you would need more information before you could come to any conclusion. That was part of Smith's job. But then she was abruptly pulled off the investigation and told police were handling everything. "There was a lot of territoriality around the case,” she says.

Smith says she also saw things in the Ramsey investigation that she's seen in other cases, like the factor that money played in it. "No one is exempt but people with money are able to keep themselves more cushioned,” she says. She says she also saw a reluctance to even consider the issue of child sex abuse. Says Smith, "It’s just not a place where you know it's so abhorrent to people that they can't even do it, they can't even wrap their heads around it but it's more common than we think.

The sexual violation of children has been around for a long time." Smith believes all of them involved with the case lost their way. She concludes, "In all the hyper-personalization around this case, everybody wanting a piece of it, everybody wanting to be the hero understandably and wanting to find out what happened to this little girl, our purpose really got lost. We lost sight of this child." In her writing, Smith describes seeing a picture of a smiling JonBenet, taken Christmas morning and tells how distressing it was to realize the child would die what she called a hideous death that very day.

No mention of fecal smearing on the observed red satin box. Not only was Holly Smith removed from the case, but she had all the material relating to the Ramsey's redacted from her autobiography. What does that tell you?

Foreign Faction, Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet, James Kolar, pages 370 - 371

There were other police reports in the files that documented what I thought could be viewed as related behavior. CSIs had written about finding a pair of pajama bottoms in JonBenét’s bedroom that contained fecal material. They were too big for her and were thought to belong to Burke.

Additionally, a box of candy located in her bedroom had also been observed to be smeared with feces. Both of these discoveries had been made during the processing of the crime scene during the execution of search warrants following the discovery of JonBenét’s body.

I wondered whether fecal material observed in pajamas thought to belong to Burke, and smeared on the box of candy in his sister’s bedroom, could have been related to the symptoms of scatological behavior associated with SBP. I also contemplated the reasons why a box of JonBenét’s candy would have been smeared with human excrement.

As noted previously, Linda Hoffman-Pugh had also mentioned finding fecal material in JonBenét’s bed sheets. It raised the question as to who may have been responsible for the deposit of that material in her bed – had it been JonBenét or was it Burke?

Holly Smith mentions no fecal smearing but crime-processing reports do. There are photographs of Burke on Christmas Morning wearing his pajamas, same bottoms as found on JonBenet's bedroom floor, answers on Postcard to the Ramsey Foundation, Colorado.

see above:

As noted previously, Linda Hoffman-Pugh had also mentioned finding fecal material in JonBenét’s bed sheets. It raised the question as to who may have been responsible for the deposit of that material in her bed – had it been JonBenét or was it Burke?

JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, pages 37 - 38

Instead of focusing on the family, the police investigation was headed another way, toward Linda Hofftmann-Pugh, the Ramseys’ housekeeper. Despite being overcome with grief, she furnished the startling information that the little girl had a problem wetting her bed. That was of great interest to the police. Often the fouling of a bed is seen in cases of incest, as a child tries to appear undesirable to an offender.
For the first six months Hoffmann-Pugh worked there, she said, JonBenét wet the bed every night, and Patsy even had the girl in pull-up diapers. Then the bed-wetting had stopped, but it had resumed about a month ago. When Hoffmann-Pugh arrived for work, she said, Patsy already had the bed stripped and the sheets going in the washing machine.
She told the police that the problem also extended to JonBenét soiling the bed, and recalled once finding fecal matter the size of a grapefruit on the sheets.

Candy, Scatological Behaviour, Sexual Assault, e.g. SBP?

.

 

[fr brown]

"There are photographs of Burke on Christmas Morning wearing his pajamas, same bottoms as found on JonBenet's bedroom floor, answers on Postcard to the Ramsey Foundation, Colorado."

OK, I'll bite. What's that supposed to mean?

 

[UKGuy]

"There are photographs of Burke on Christmas Morning wearing his pajamas, same bottoms as found on JonBenet's bedroom floor, answers on Postcard to the Ramsey Foundation, Colorado."

OK, I'll bite. What's that supposed to mean?

fr brown,
I forgot to add a question mark at the end, i.e. it was meant to be a rhetorical question.

Meaning are the fecally soiled pajama bottoms found on JonBenet's bedroom floor the same pair as worn by Burke on Christmas Eve as seen in the Christmas Morning photographs?

Kolar never told us !


.

 

[fr brown]

fr brown,
I forgot to add a question mark at the end, i.e. it was meant to be a rhetorical question.

Meaning are the fecally soiled pajama bottoms found on JonBenet's bedroom floor the same pair as worn by Burke on Christmas Eve as seen in the Christmas Morning photographs?

Kolar never told us !

What does "answers on a Postcard to the Ramsey Foundation, Colorado" mean? You've used this phrase on a couple of other websleuths threads.

 

[UKGuy]

What does "answers on a Postcard to the Ramsey Foundation, Colorado" mean? You've used this phrase on a couple of other websleuths threads.

fr brown,
LOL, no answer required or expected as the question is rhetorical, e.g. would you expect a reply from Ramsey Foundation, Colorado?

.

 

[fr brown]

Patsy was asked about the various clothing items in crime scene photos. There was an item Patsy identified as Burke's pajamas, but they were hanging on a wall near the laundry to dry.

 

[Ms. Justice]

apabld,

Not enough.


Its fact according to Patsy. She told an interviewer that JonBenet and Burke shared a bedroom on Christmas Eve and that this was a regular thing.

My take on that is Patsy was attempting to smooth the edges on what she knew was a questionable relationship, i.e. the one we do not know enough about !

Also I reckon on Christmas Day Night Burke and JonBenet just carried on and shared the bedroom, for some reason it did not bother Patsy. Consider those neglect or abuse charges levelled by the GJ.

The general background or Victmology to JonBenet's death is that she was cocooned inside a lavish lifestyle with only her brother to play with, if at all?

Patsy's interest in JonBenet was professional, JonBenet was Patsy's maternal project, with pageant venues to visit, singing and dancing lessons, pageant outfits to purchase, schooling was really a social agenda for Patsy where she could make friends etc.

So with John away regularly on business trips, Patsy taken up with her social causes, JonBenet and Burke were left alone in a large house to amuse themselves. Burke would have friends stay for sleepovers, check out who his friends were.

We do not have a schedule of dates relating to John's business trips or Patsy's social engagements but know enough to speculate that these circumstances led to JonBenet becoming a vulnerable victim.


So thats why we do not know enough, just enough to sketch a victimology, but not enough to be certain.


.

Excellent post. You are correct in that we do not know enough about the children's relationship. Patsy and John made sure the police would not get their hands on Burke's medical records. Strange, to say the least.

 

[UKGuy]

Patsy was asked about the various clothing items in crime scene photos. There was an item Patsy identified as Burke's pajamas, but they were hanging on a wall near the laundry to dry.

fr brown,
Sure, here it is:
BPD 1998 Patsy Interview Excerpt

15 TRIP DEMUTH: What about 384?

16 PATSY RAMSEY: (Inaudible). Something

17 hanging over the wall up there by the laundry to dry.

18 TRIP DEMUTH: Do you recognize what they are?

19 PATSY RAMSEY: It looks like pajamas or

20 something. It looks like Burke's pajamas.

21 TRIP DEMUTH: May be tights.

22 PATSY RAMSEY: You mean leggings or

23 something?

24 TRIP DEMUTH: Right.

25 PATSY RAMSEY: Can't tell whether they are

0463

1 adult or children.

2 TRIP DEMUTH: So you can't tell from that

3 photo what they are?

4 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

So Patsy sows doubt.

Yet if you consider Kolar's remarks about Burke's pajamas:
Foreign Faction, Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet, James Kolar, pages 370 - 371

There were other police reports in the files that documented what I thought could be viewed as related behavior. CSIs had written about finding a pair of pajama bottoms in JonBenét’s bedroom that contained fecal material. They were too big for her and were thought to belong to Burke.

and ... BPD questioning Patsy:
1997 BPD Patsy Interview, Excerpt

TT: What was John wearing when you guys came downstairs that day? What kind of clothing was he wearing?

PR: His pajamas and his robe probably.

TT: Okay. What were you wearing that day?

PR: Pajamas and my robe.

TT: Didn’t get cleaned up or showered or anything like that?

PR: No, no, no, no, kids won’t let you do that.

TT: All righty. Um, what, what are the kids wearing?

PR: Pajamas.

TT: Okay. What kind of pajamas does Burke normally wear to bed?

PR: Oh, you know, cotton shirt and pants.

TT: Okay.

PR: knit kind of stuff.

TT: Okay. Do you remember what color of pajamas he was wearing that day?

PR: That he was wearing?

TT: Um hum.

PR: No, not exactly.

This is the answer to my rhetorical question, i.e. BPD were attempting to check if the pajamas found on JonBenet's bedroom floor are same pair he was wearing on Christmas morning, but wait for it, they have Burke in Christmas photograph wearing his pajamas, so I guess they could work it all out.

here it is:

Any guesses why BPD or Kolar have not told us what they concluded?

.

 

[#Hayls]

The BR police interview tapes......

Det. Schuler: "What was Jonbenet's favorite snack?"

BR: "I don't think she had a snack."

Det. Schuler: "What about pineapple, did she like pineapple?"

BR: "Yeah, she liked pineapple a lot."

Was he recalling that JBR didn't have a snack that night or did he mean that she didn't have a favorite snack?
The interviews are very thought provoking. Interesting language use, body language, and recollections. If anyone wants to discuss them further, I'm ready to roll!

Thoughts?

 

[Razz]

The BR police interview tapes......

Det. Schuler: "What was Jonbenet's favorite snack?"

BR: "I don't think she had a snack."

Det. Schuler: "What about pineapple, did she like pineapple?"

BR: "Yeah, she liked pineapple a lot."

Was he recalling that JBR didn't have a snack that night or did he mean that she didn't have a favorite snack?
The interviews are very thought provoking. Interesting language use, body language, and recollections. If anyone wants to discuss them further, I'm ready to roll!

Thoughts?

I'm thinking that was a pretty generic and a broad question by the interviewer. That's a question as a kid (and as an adult) I wouldn't be able to answer if asked about my sibling. I wouldn't have a clue but if asked specifically, did he like chocolate chip cookies, I could/would say yes!

I'm not sure I see what the interviewer was trying to achieve here. ????
As a kid, I was pretty straightforward. I could always tell if someone was trying to get me to say something and I would resent it and become wary in the process.....and shut down.

 

[Swirlz]

I'm not sure I see what the interviewer was trying to achieve here. ????

JonBenét had pineapple in her digestive tract. They're trying to determine where and when she ate it so they can pin down a time-frame.

 

[Razz]

JonBenét had pineapple in her digestive tract. They're trying to determine where and when she ate it so they can pin down a time-frame.

Got it. I can be dense on occasion.

Should I be reading what was asked after that? (But as a kid, I'd have been hinky about his line of questioning.
I feel like I would have known where he was going. Was Burke on guard?

 

[Swirlz]

In real life the detective shows Burke a pic of the pineapple that had been sitting on the kitchen table and asks Burke to identify it. Burke has a difficult time but eventually says he thinks it looks like fruit. This exchange is followed by the one posted above; where Burke is questioned about JonBenét's favorite snack and the interviewer makes the pineapple suggestion.

CBS reversed the footage, showing the conversation where pineapple is mentioned first, followed by Burke acting like he can't figure out what the pic shows. So it looks like Burke is being given a major hint but still can't figure it out. CBS played the exchange with creepy noises in the background.

I think it's nothing. He doesn't recognize the picture because he doesn't remember or wasn't paying any attention to what was on the kitchen table. He doesn't remember JonBenét's favorite snack because he's not the one who served the snacks.

 

[#Hayls]

I want to make a correction:

BR said "I don't think she had a snack ... anytime before bed"
in response to the question "What was Jonbenet's favorite snack?"

@0:06-0:23

Here is a transcript:

DS: What about Christmas Eve [note: not the night she was killed], when you’re going up there, did you guys have a snack before you went to bed that night?

BR: I forget.

DS: What was Jonbenet’s favorite snack?

BR: I don’t think she had a snack … anytime before bed.

DS: Okay, would she ever like a particular thing to eat during the day you know for a snack?

BR: Just whatever mom had laid out, cause she had always laid out a snack for after school.

DS: Okay.

BR: Whatever she had ready. Could just be--

DS: What would a typical snack be?

BR: Pudding, or … I dunno… Like, leftover pizza, or something.

DS: So, would there ever be -- You know, sounds like your mom was pretty nutritional.

BR: She wasn’t that serious about it.

DS: Wasn’t she?

BR: (faintly) Gave us cookies, you know--

DS: Some moms cut up apples.

BR: Yeah.

DS: What else would she do, fruit-wise?

BR: (sigh) That’s all I know of. Maybe (mumbling) pineapple maybe.

DS: Pineapple?

BR: Yeah.

DS: You mentioned that once before. Is that kind of a favorite --

BR: Yeah.

DS: --thing?

BR: Yeah, it’s -- really -- favorite -- (mumbling) thing.

DS: Is that probably the most favorite?

BR: Um, apples or pineapple probably the two

Thanks to those who have responded. You have shared some good insight and given me more to think about.
My initial thought was that BR attempted eliminate the possibility of JBR having a snack before bedtime because the pineapple snack was the catalyst of the event.
It's also possible that he was responding to the question just prior.