Madeleine McCann - Netflix documentary on this case

[pinkje]

One thing that gets my attention but I could have this very wrong , is the male member of the group who offered early on then again later to go check on the McCann children. I think someone said they checked but didn't look in, is that correct? So what I'm alluding to but hoping I'm wrong is was one male person the only person to go visit the McCann appartment twice (early on then again) until Kate then went and discovered her missing? I might be mixed up because the timeline is all mixed up anyway. Thoughts?

It was David Payne who called inon Kate and the children earlier in the evening.

Whereas it was Matthew Oldfield who looked in on them around 9.30 so, not the same individual. If that’s what you were referring to.

 

[Mrs Marple]

Is the "tannerman" and "man Jane saw" the same man? If so, the Netflix program also ruled him out.

Yes

 

[Ampersandish]

Just watched the Netflix doco. Without having followed this case much before, here's what I took away:

a. Portugese Police were grossly incompetent
b. The family suffered a false trial by media
c. The family engaged private investigators to do the work the police should have done, the first investigator at least closed down several 'theories', the second investigator was charged with fraud
d. Scotland Yard has now picked the case up. There was likely a sexual predator in the area of the hotel, with some 28 recent cases around the hotel that involved Brittish Children. Scotland Yard are working on leads from some of the other cases in the area

What a horrific last ten years this family has been through. I hope they get an answer soon

 

[otto]

One thing that gets my attention but I could have this very wrong , is the male member of the group who offered early on then again later to go check on the McCann children. I think someone said they checked but didn't look in, is that correct? So what I'm alluding to but hoping I'm wrong is was one male person the only person to go visit the McCann appartment twice (early on then again) until Kate then went and discovered her missing? I might be mixed up because the timeline is all mixed up anyway. Thoughts?

After Madeleine was safely in bed and before she was abducted, the group was at dinner and could not have made her disappear. There simply wasn't time.

Regarding others, Murat was investigated because a couple of journalists said that he was paying close attention to the investigation and lived in eyesight of the resort. They had a "vibe." He was having dinner with another person at the time of the abduction. He has an alibi.

The Russian in his 20s was investigated by Spanish private detectives, and his car was burned. There was no evidence leading to him. The private detectives tried to connect him to dark web *advertiser censored*. That didn't work either. There was no evidence of Madeleine on the dark web or in any *advertiser censored* related materials.

Regarding the 6 year old girl missing in 2004, according to her mother and uncle she went to the corner store in the late afternoon and did not return. Their confession seems implausible, but if the child was grabbed from the street on her way to the store, that could mean that there is a local predator - especially if we connect it to the 2007 abduction of Madeleine. Police will avoid that line of investigation because it could negatively impact tourism.

 

[mrjitty]

It was David Payne who called inon Kate and the children earlier in the evening.

Whereas it was Matthew Oldfield who looked in on them around 9.30 so, not the same individual. If that’s what you were referring to.

I personally doubt Oldfield even went into the apartment based on his statements

 

[Officer Dibble]

It was David Payne who called inon Kate and the children earlier in the evening.

Whereas it was Matthew Oldfield who looked in on them around 9.30 so, not the same individual. If that’s what you were referring to.

thanks for clearing that up - I thought it was the same man again

 

[Officer Dibble]

I personally doubt Oldfield even went into the apartment based on his statements

I don't know what standards you are referring to

 

[Officer Dibble]

I gave up after episode 6. Are you saying the documetary states a child nearby was abducted? Any info on that?

Interestingly I can tell you that on a local news station in the UK (it was Meridian news in the South East UK) at the beginning of the first week back to school in September, a couple were interviewed. They and their child/ren had been on holiday to the same area but further up the coast . They were trying to get attention because a 'creepy' man had been around their pool all day (or maybe more than one day - my memory has faded) and he was taking photos of all the children, to the point that all the parents were complaining about him but nothing was done. So the male parent being interviewed went and demanded to see what photos were on the man's camera. At some point in the proceedings he saw photos of his daughter and demanded they were taken off the camera. The photographer-man refused and they had a physical scuffle/fight. The interviewed man was begging Reception staff to call the Police but Reception at first were not very forthcoming and when eventually they did call Police it either took many hours or even days for them to come (or maybe they didn't come - sorry, all I can remember is that it took hours and was very very lax and Police were not interested). The couple on the local news were reported to be from Kent (iirc).

Just wondering if anyone had any thoughts to the above I posted this weekend?

 

[Side Sleuth]

I thought from the documentary that there was another man (not Tannerman) seen carrying a child headed toward the beach not seen by Jane, but by some other tourists that night.

 

[mrjitty]

I thought from the documentary that there was another man (not Tannerman) seen carrying a child headed toward the beach not seen by Jane, but by some other tourists that night.

Yes - that is the person seen by the Smith Family from Ireland

It is a separate sighting and happens later and multiple members of the family saw the man with 'sleeping" child in pyjamas

that person has never come forward

 

[mrjitty]

I don't know what standards you are referring to

His statements to the police are inconsistent IMO

 

[pinkje]

Yes - that is the person seen by the Smith Family from Ireland

It is a separate sighting and happens later and multiple members of the family saw the man with 'sleeping" child in pyjamas

that person has never come forward

The documentary covers this I think. Mr Smith called (the Police?) to say, whilst watching the tv coverage of Gerry McCann walking down the steps from the plane that brought them back to the UK in September, he had a lightbulb moment. That was the man he’d seen on May 3rd. Something about the way he was holding his sleeping child.

Something that bugs me is that it sounds like the McCann’s return to the UK was deliberate to avoid them being arrested. Is that correct?

 

[Jwu]

Just finished the documentary after never following the case before. I probably have an unpopular opinion, but I feel like she just walked right out of the door. Probably woke up, went looking for her parents, and poof she's gone. After that I think she either fell in one of the unused wells, fell into the ocean (I think I read somewhere there were cliffs nearby) or was snatched from outside the room by someone who got lucky. The parents are guilty to me, but only of leaving their super young children alone in an unlocked apartment. I also think they honestly believe that she was abducted from her room...I just don't see it - I still don't know whether the window was up or down or who touched it or who didn't, etc. and there's no physical evidence pointing one way or the other. I feel like it's easier for them to live with the belief that she was abducted rather than their negligence caused her disappearance.

I also think Netflix did a good job showing each theory, but each of them had problems and holes. Although the last couple theories, the lone predator or the sex trafficking ring, seem to be the least likely to me. Could it have happened? Sure, anything is possible. Did it happen? Not the most likely in my mind. They were either really great and organized and good at what they did, but yet didn't take all 3 kids? Seemed to be enough of them floating around, being spotted by everyone and making themselves well known asking for orphanage funds. For the lone predator, it seemed they liked older children. Not saying she couldn't have been targeted, but I thought pedophiles typically stayed in an age range. 7-10, while young, seems a far cry from a 3 year old.

Again, all just MOO and all that. Fascinating case nonetheless. I hope her parents get an answer in their lifetimes.

ETA - I meant lone predator coming in her room theory versus just finding her wandering about.

 

[mrjitty]

The documentary covers this I think. Mr Smith called (the Police?) to say, whilst watching the tv coverage of Gerry McCann walking down the steps from the plane that brought them back to the UK in September, he had a lightbulb moment. That was the man he’d seen on May 3rd. Something about the way he was holding his sleeping child.

Something that bugs me is that it sounds like the McCann’s return to the UK was deliberate to avoid them being arrested. Is that correct?

IIRC they stayed in Portugal until the infamous 48 questions were put to Kate by PJ following the cadaver dogs.

However PJ lacked evidence to arrest them. But at that point the McCann's media pretence that PJ were not focussed on the McCanns themselves could no longer be maintained.

 

[mrjitty]

Just finished the documentary after never following the case before. I probably have an unpopular opinion, but I feel like she just walked right out of the door. Probably woke up, went looking for her parents, and poof she's gone. After that I think she either fell in one of the unused wells, fell into the ocean (I think I read somewhere there were cliffs nearby) or was snatched from outside the room by someone who got lucky. The parents are guilty to me, but only of leaving their super young children alone in an unlocked apartment. I also think they honestly believe that she was abducted from her room...I just don't see it - I still don't know whether the window was up or down or who touched it or who didn't, etc. and there's no physical evidence pointing one way or the other. I feel like it's easier for them to live with the belief that she was abducted rather than their negligence caused her disappearance.

I also think Netflix did a good job showing each theory, but each of them had problems and holes. Although the last couple theories, the lone predator or the sex trafficking ring, seem to be the least likely to me. Could it have happened? Sure, anything is possible. Did it happen? Not the most likely in my mind. They were either really great and organized and good at what they did, but yet didn't take all 3 kids? Seemed to be enough of them floating around, being spotted by everyone and making themselves well known asking for orphanage funds. For the lone predator, it seemed they liked older children. Not saying she couldn't have been targeted, but I thought pedophiles typically stayed in an age range. 7-10, while young, seems a far cry from a 3 year old.

Again, all just MOO and all that. Fascinating case nonetheless. I hope her parents get an answer in their lifetimes.

ETA - I meant lone predator coming in her room theory versus just finding her wandering about.

The key thing about the sex trafficker theory et al emerged at the Lisbon trial.

The McCanns could not point to one scrap of evidence to support such a theory. In simple terms the PJ case and the state of the evidence remains the same as developed by Mark Harrison. The police need to follow the evidence.

We officially request the help of the best experts in criminology and forensics but also the specialist dog team from the English police. A few days later, we welcome Mark Harrison, a specialist in murder, and the search for missing persons and victims of natural disasters. National advisor to the British police, he is well known for his exceptional professional experience. He has already participated in dozens of international criminal investigations.
...
After a week of intense work, Harrison presents the results of his study to my coordinating group. Even if we were expecting it, his conclusions confirm our worst fears. The most plausible scenario is the following: there is no doubt that Madeleine is dead, and her body is hidden somewhere in the area around Praia da Luz. He praises the quality of the work carried out by the Portuguese authorities in trying to find the little girl alive. According to him, the time has come to redirect the searches in order to find, this time, a body hidden in the surrounding area.
​

It was this work by the english which provided strong evidence of the death hypothesis. In short there is no evidence she was abducted alive, but significant evidence she died in the apartment.

 

[Noharg]

Just wondering if anyone had any thoughts to the above I posted this weekend?

IIRC, the police had to be called a second time before they finally showed up at the resort when MC went missing.

 

[Noharg]

I think you guys all bring up great points. Also, hi! I'm new here.

But I think if we go back to the basics of the case, we can agree that there is no evidence whatsoever that there was an intruder/abductor. There is no physical evidence, there are no credible eye witness accounts, and there is no mention from the other McCann children of them hearing or seeing anyone. I think it's easy to think that some kind of organized crime ring is responsible with trained abductors that would steal a child and leave without a trace, but statistically this is unlikely to the point of impossible. A child is more statistically likely to be abducted in public (even if out with mom or dad) then through a home invasion.

As another poster mentioned, children who are trafficked are usually vulnerable already and much easier to kidnap because they will not be looked for as hard (marginalized, poor children, children of addicts etc). For a European crime faction to abduct a child on holiday from her own room would be extremely risky and what would the profit be? If it's a pedophile then there would still be far easier targets. The netflix doc shows how visible the area around the apartment was, there are clear sightlines on all sides in a private resort. That is not an easy target.

Also, the mother's statement is most telling. Why would she assume someone had taken her child? Wouldn’t she assume that Maddie has wandered off or gone missing? If she truly believed right away that she was taken, why would she leave the other children alone in the apartment? Why didn’t they wake up throughout the commotion of her looking in the apartment? And afterwards in the press videos she did not look like someone who was out of their mind with panic and anxiety over not knowing where their child was, she looked like someone who already knew her child was dead and was grieving. I think the overdose theory is most likely. Also, I find it telling that the only other witness to confirm that the children were asleep and alright the night of admitted he never even went into the room. What kind of check system is that? You would at least count heads if no actually go up to each child to make sure they were okay. These are very young children we are talking about who would need diaper changes and maybe late evening snacks or water. What group of 2 and 3 year olds all sleep through the night?


According to the CNN there are an average of 500 children killed every year in the US by their parents, which accounts for 60 percent of child murders. Unless evidence is found that a unknown male or female person was in the apartment in the night in question, I see no reason to deviate from Occam’s razor. The simplest explanation is that Maddie overdosed (or choked due to vomit due to an overdose) and her parents disposed of the body. The how and why of this is more complex but if convicted both would lose their licenses to practice medicine and their remaining children. Also, they were by the sea and near old wells and fields that were unused. As a methodical search of the land was not completed, I don’t think it’s that unusual that she was never found. Many people are never found. To imagine that she was smuggled as part of a rich person adoption scheme is wishful thinking (so that she is still alive and cared for).


While I don’t believe there is some grand conspiracy at play to cover it up in favour of the parents, I do think their actions were telling after the fact and they had PR people on their side always to support the reasonable doubt/ abductor angle. Frankly, I’m surprised they were never charged.


I do find the police investigation to be lacking, because I think they should have performing a more thorough search and should have interviewed every single person and staff of the resort and surrounding area. With that evidence it would be clear if anyone else was involved.


All my opinions obviously, but would love to hear your thoughts

Hi. I’m also new to this case here. The sniff dogs bother me. They both hit on something in 5A. I am certain this has been discussed extensively on WS before. I’d like to hear theories on the dog hits.
My leaning is that something happened in that apartment. According to the Netflix series, KM immediately ran out of the apt yelling Madeleine had been taken. This while her twins slept soundly, never waking in all the commotion. Odd. That said, the investigation was beyond shoddy.

JMO

 

[Beltonian]

I wonder if they did blood test for the twins? Remember, a documentary mentions that twins were continued to sleep abnormally deeply after abduction for a long time and all that commotion in the room 5A with bunch of people coming/going to and from apartment. Kids were more likely drugged and not with harmless Tylenol...

 

[Beltonian]

What bugs me the most - full lack of guilt, remorse, shame and feeling horrible from her parents. Why?? Anybody in their position would be ridden with huge non stopping guilt because one way or another they caused their daughter likely death/disappearance...Maybe it is because they know exactly what happened to her?

 

[Noharg]

What bugs me the most - full lack of guilt, remorse, shame and feeling horrible from her parents. Why?? Anybody in their position would be ridden with huge non stopping guilt because one way or another they caused their daughter likely death/disappearance...Maybe it is because they know exactly what happened to her?

I don’t think they did. This investigation was a travesty.