Found Deceased UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #15 *ARREST*

[JosieJo]

Circumstantial evidence can make you sure though if there is enough of it. In this case the little circumstantial evidence we have is quite compelling. Not enough for a court of law by any means but I assume the police have far more. You couldn't have got PR from Spidercam because you'd need anpr to initially ID the cars owner. So maybe they have that.

There was a lot of circumstantial evidence in Levi Belfield's conviction for Milly Dowler's murder and no forensics.

I'm guessing from sisters comments they will have DNA linking him to Libby.

We don't know what else police have or how far back they've gone to show a pattern. If one person genuinely heard screams how many others did? Did grey Beard see PR and that's what made him stop? Did the hammer, screwdriver and lipstick have PRs DNA on them? Did other witnesses see him with her? Have the Croda witnesses come forward.

I agree the police will have much more as they should my opinion is only based on what we know so far ...for me until we hear more there seems plenty to link him to picking her up but when it comes to what happened after that and how we have nothing as yet

 

[Winterbells]

I know nothing about fishing, but when I read that PR liked to fish, I assumed that wasn't as a hobbyist. Others have said to me that people who fish throw them back in. But if PR 'likes fishing' (as has been reported in the press) is it possible this is not done in a legal or hobby fashion, but in order to actually catch fish to eat? This would make me think he knows all sorts of places where he can reach the water easily and on the quiet.
I came across this article in the gutter press.
Anglers fury as Romanians eat their prized carp | Daily Mail Online

 

[Loobyloo]

I'd guess any trial will potentially heard elsewhere

Yes, the trial is set for Sheffield Crown Court.

 

[Loobyloo]

I'm wondering about PR though, because he'd gotten Libby into his car and taken her somewhere with intent to cause some harm - maybe or maybe not murder. Where is the heat of the moment leading to loss of control there?

If his intention was merely (bad enough, I know) a sexual encounter, but Libby resisted/screamed, etc. that's plenty of reason for him to panic and over-react. If the result was her death, he could claim it was inadvertent - even claim some regret - which would make it possible for his defence to argue for manslaughter rather than murder.

 

[Winterbells]

I just can't see the rejection of a sexual advance resulting in accidental death unless the guy is a complete psycho.
I just can't see how you can accidentally kill someone with your bare hands. Yes, you could whack someone over the head with a hammer in a rage and accidentally kill them, or stick a knife in someone and they die without you meaning them to, but how can you accidentally strangle someone? (for example)
And if you didn't intend to kill them, why would you not try to get help?

 

[Winterbells]

There are so many articles in the press when you google 'he said he accidentally strangled her'.
It seems to be as common a defence as 'the dog ate my homework'.

 

[Newthoughts]

I just can't see the rejection of a sexual advance resulting in accidental death unless the guy is a complete psycho.
I just can't see how you can accidentally kill someone with your bare hands. Yes, you could whack someone over the head with a hammer in a rage and accidentally kill them, or stick a knife in someone and they die without you meaning them to, but how can you accidentally strangle someone? (for example)
And if you didn't intend to kill them, why would you not try to get help?

There are so many articles in the press when you google 'he said he accidentally strangled her'.
It seems to be as common a defence as 'the dog ate my homework'.

If anyone can face it Gemma Dowlers book about her sister is an interesting but incredibly harrowing read. Her family met the family of Lyndsey Hawker who was strangled in Japan and accidental strangling was her killers defence.

Apparently the Japanese prosecution said it takes three and a half minutes to strangle someone. They then made the court sit in silence for three and a half minutes to show how long the killer had to stop 'accidently' killing someone.

Be a very good thing to introduce here.

 

[Newthoughts]

I just can't see the rejection of a sexual advance resulting in accidental death unless the guy is a complete psycho.
I just can't see how you can accidentally kill someone with your bare hands. Yes, you could whack someone over the head with a hammer in a rage and accidentally kill them, or stick a knife in someone and they die without you meaning them to, but how can you accidentally strangle someone? (for example)
And if you didn't intend to kill them, why would you not try to get help?

I'd say having a hammer or knife in your possession would just be an accident waiting to happen.

Likewise I struggle with accidently picking up a rock and hitting someone. Or Accidently pushing over a drunk young girl I'm probably far St stronger than with sufficient force in a park which, even when frozen, is not that hard.

As far as we know PR was a stocky bloke with broad shoulders. Libby a vulnerable, drunk, freezing cold young woman. I'd say she'd be very easy to overpower without the need to 'accidently' kill her. Hopefully any prosecution would be able to point that out

 

[Newthoughts]

I know nothing about fishing, but when I read that PR liked to fish, I assumed that wasn't as a hobbyist. Others have said to me that people who fish throw them back in. But if PR 'likes fishing' (as has been reported in the press) is it possible this is not done in a legal or hobby fashion, but in order to actually catch fish to eat? This would make me think he knows all sorts of places where he can reach the water easily and on the quiet.
I came across this article in the gutter press.
Anglers fury as Romanians eat their prized carp | Daily Mail Online

We have had exactly the same problems reported here. Hobbyists fish and throw back. Others fish illegally to eat. If I had to make a guess based on different approaches to fishing in different countries I'd say PR fell into the latter category.

 

[Newthoughts]

If his intention was merely (bad enough, I know) a sexual encounter, but Libby resisted/screamed, etc. that's plenty of reason for him to panic and over-react. If the result was her death, he could claim it was inadvertent - even claim some regret - which would make it possible for his defence to argue for manslaughter rather than murder.

Panic I think, would make you run away.

 

[Cherwell]

I just can't see the rejection of a sexual advance resulting in accidental death unless the guy is a complete psycho.
I just can't see how you can accidentally kill someone with your bare hands. Yes, you could whack someone over the head with a hammer in a rage and accidentally kill them, or stick a knife in someone and they die without you meaning them to, but how can you accidentally strangle someone? (for example)
And if you didn't intend to kill them, why would you not try to get help?

I'm not suggesting that this is what happened, but vagal inhibition, eg pressure on the neck, can kill in seconds.
Vagal inhibition | Health Drip

 

[Cherwell]

For those concerned about a potential manslaughter conviction, may I remind you that the maximum sentence for manslaughter is life imprisonment.
While most people convicted of manslaughter do get much shorter sentences, it's by no means a 'get out of jail free' card.

 

[Armchair_Defective]

I just can't see the rejection of a sexual advance resulting in accidental death unless the guy is a complete psycho.
I just can't see how you can accidentally kill someone with your bare hands. Yes, you could whack someone over the head with a hammer in a rage and accidentally kill them, or stick a knife in someone and they die without you meaning them to, but how can you accidentally strangle someone? (for example)
And if you didn't intend to kill them, why would you not try to get help?

As Cherwell said, it can happen within seconds. If a man is trying to subdue a woman in an assault he could also have his hand over her mouth and around the neck to stop her screaming and to him at that moment that's his main is to 'complete' his assault. I suppose it then can be argued that murder was not the intention, assault was, men are generally stronger than women and obviously come off worse in these situations.

I'm not sure we'll ever know if killing was part of PR's plan unless he admits it, police find some kind of plan, or evidence of him watching *advertiser censored* with the same outcome etc.

 

[Winterbells]

Apologies if this has already been covered, but I would have assumed that the hammer and screwdriver found, wouldn't be tools that someone has discarded, but that someone has hidden, ie. put somewhere secret to use as and when for burglary purposes.

 

[Winterbells]

As Cherwell said, it can happen within seconds. If a man is trying to subdue a woman in an assault he could also have his hand over her mouth and around the neck to stop her screaming and to him at that moment that's his main is to 'complete' his assault. I suppose it then can be argued that murder was not the intention, assault was, men are generally stronger than women and obviously come off worse in these situations.

I'm not sure we'll ever know if killing was part of PR's plan unless he admits it, police find some kind of plan, or evidence of him watching *advertiser censored* with the same outcome etc.

I take your point, ArmchairD.

 

[Newthoughts]

As Cherwell said, it can happen within seconds. If a man is trying to subdue a woman in an assault he could also have his hand over her mouth and around the neck to stop her screaming and to him at that moment that's his main is to 'complete' his assault. I suppose it then can be argued that murder was not the intention, assault was, men are generally stronger than women and obviously come off worse in these situations.

I'm not sure we'll ever know if killing was part of PR's plan unless he admits it, police find some kind of plan, or evidence of him watching *advertiser censored* with the same outcome etc.

Sorry there are no feasible manslaughter defences in that scenario. No reasonable provocation or percieved threat. No accidental pushing. That has got to be murder or every rapist in the world could get away with things surely?.

At the point of putting your hands around someones neck and over their mouths death could be fairly expected. I don't think you need to show extensive planning.

 

[jessie]

Apologies if this has already been covered, but I would have assumed that the hammer and screwdriver found, wouldn't be tools that someone has discarded, but that someone has hidden, ie. put somewhere secret to use as and when for burglary purposes.

Being in possession of an offensive weapon ? OIMO but such things do get dumped/hidden/disposed of rapidly when those carrying are approached by police. Could have happened at any time by someone, I don't know the rate of burglaries in that area.

 

[Cherwell]

At the point of putting your hands around someones neck and over their mouths death could be fairly expected. I don't think you need to show extensive planning.

I disagree. Comments on this and various other threads show that most people think that strangling or smothering takes minutes, not seconds, to kill. And that is usually the case.

 

[Enquirer-2019]

Sorry there are no feasible manslaughter defences in that scenario. No reasonable provocation or percieved threat. No accidental pushing. That has got to be murder or every rapist in the world could get away with things surely?.

At the point of putting your hands around someones neck and over their mouths death could be fairly expected. I don't think you need to show extensive planning.

I agree with your thinking and our presumed intentions by PR.
But sadly within the law intention can not be proved without absolute evidence as oppose to belief, and so he could escape a murder charge by claiming he strangled her to death accidentally.

There have been cases of lovers who engaged in acts of temporary asphyxiation for erotic/ sexual pleasure but accidentally stopped breathing and died.

I don’t think most of us question his intentions but I think the defence will argue it was not to kill her, but to gain sexual arousal and restrain her and her screams. I personally wouldn’t be surprised either if we see a plea of temporary insanity in his defence also. (I do not believe he is insane personally, I believe he fantasised about a calculated and planned attack on ‘a woman’.

 

[Newthoughts]

I agree with your thinking and our presumed intentions by PR.
But sadly within the law intention can not be proved without absolute evidence as oppose to belief, and so he could escape a murder charge by claiming he strangled her to death accidentally.

There have been cases of lovers who engaged in acts of tempora7ry asphyxiation for erotic/ sexual pleasure but accidentally stopped breathing and died.

I don’t think most of us question his intentions but I think the defence will argue it was not to kill her, but to gain sexual arousal and restrain her and her screams. I personally wouldn’t be surprised either if we see a plea of temporary insanity in his defence also. (I do not believe he is insane personally, I believe he fantasised about a calculated and planned attack on ‘a woman’.

I after for murder they have to show intent to kill or cause GBH. That intent is there if the defendant feels sure death or serious injury is a certainty.

Wouldn't it be difficult to argue that you were unsure that putting your hand around a much more vulnerable person would result in at least serious harm? It seems to be a very high bar to set to say that you need evidence to show that you knew putting your hands around a much would cause harm. Isn't that something you'd expect an adult to be aware of?

The law is odd