CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #52 *ARREST*

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SandyQLS said:
That is actually a false statement. The figure shows nothing about rates of travel , and if the police calculated rates of travel they did not disclose it. The very definition of rate of travel is velocity or speed, and there is nothing in the search warrants about it.

The figure and text shown is repeated in many search warrants, one is the top of page 15 in SW18-112.

The longer teal arc band represents all points 1.26 miles from the Florissant tower in that sector for PF's phone RTT hit at 4:49:45. The teal arc band only crosses Hwy24 at one point (near the bottom)

The shorter red arc band represents all points .44 miles from the Florissant tower in that sector for KB's phone RTT hit at 4:50:33. The red arc only crosses Hwy24 at one point (near the top).

The driving distance on Hwy24 between those two points is 1.2 miles per Google and Mapquest. This section of Hwy24 is two lanes, no passing, no shoulders, blasted out rock face or guard rail, with yellow warning signs about curves. The reasonable speed or rate of travel is 45 mph. There is Google Street View available. Sunset on 11/22 was at 4:41PM so it was also after dark in the forested mountains.

PF only has 48 seconds between pings, his phone at 4:49:45 and KB's phone at 4:50:33. To convert 48 seconds to minutes, 48secs/60secs per min = .8mins

How fast would PF need to go to support the stated LE contention that the phones were moving together going west on Hwy24 toward PF's residence?

Formula:
actual miles/actual minutes x 60mph = actual mph

1.2/.8 x 60 = 90mph

90mph would be the rate of travel... if the phones were moving together... which must be why they never actually mention it.

MOO
Click to expand...

It is also important to note that PF's phone had connected thru the Woodland Park Tower at 4:37 pm, then connected through the Divide tower at 4:43 pm, before connecting with the Florissant tower at 4:49 pm......which firmly indicated travel westward. This was followed immediately by an extensive "attempt to connect" commencing at 4:50 through the Florissant tower lasting 4 minutes and 21 seconds. The timing, duration and location strongly suggest that PF was at his front gate, attempting to complete a call before getting out of his truck and opening the gate. During this clear chain of events, KB's phone was not previously connected to the Woodland Park tower, did not get handed off to the Divide tower, and only pinged the Florissant tower, indicating that the phone was either turned on or swiped to "wake up" one minute before that 4:50 ping. If the phones were traveling together, this could only be accomplished by one person doing some extremely tricky phone juggling at 90 mph on a dark and twisting mountain road with a child beside him. It is much more probable that PF's phone and KB's phone were in different vehicles within the northeast facing quadrant of the Florissant tower reception area. During the phone call attempt commencing at 4:50 pm, PF's phone was most likely still connected through the northeast facing sector of the Florissant tower, but KB's phone, which was not attempting a call, would have been expected to ping the Florissant tower again during that time, to transfer to the northwest facing sector of the tower. There was no ping. There is no evidence to contradict a notion that that KB's phone was traveling in the opposite direction, heading back toward Divide and Woodland Park at 4:50 pm, while the data does prove that PF's phone was traveling westward at that time.
The data is clearly stated in SW 18-11, Affidavit A, on pages 8 and 10 of 26.
Colorado Judicial Branch - Teller - Cases of Interest - The People of the State of Colorado v. Patrick Frazee
 
Seattle1 said:
So what's you point? Who are you trying to prove wrong -- the forensic expert or News 5 's Sam Kraemer?

The search warrant is not the place for the forensic expert testify -- that will come at trial.

Warrants reveal cell phone evidence in Frazee case

Cell phone information also helped police determine Frazee was lying to them. He said he last saw Berreth on Thanksgiving, after she was spotted at the Woodland Park Safeway. Frazee said his last contact with her was via text on Nov. 25.

Mark Pfoff, a former El Paso County Sheriff’s Office detective and current owner of Rocky Mountain Computer Forensics, has spoken to News 5 about the importance of cell phone analytics in the case. He said it proves some inconsistencies in Frazee’s story.

“I think the records very clearly show that the story he gave law enforcement is not accurate,” Pfoff said.
Click to expand...
My post is about the truth and physical limitations. It is not possible to drive 90mph on that section of Hwy24. PF presumably had possession of his own phone and his RTT hit is clear. It is more "likely" that he was not in possession of KB's phone, contrary to the SW statement, signed by a judge.
 
SandyQLS said:
That is actually a false statement. The figure shows nothing about rates of travel , and if the police calculated rates of travel they did not disclose it. The very definition of rate of travel is velocity or speed, and there is nothing in the search warrants about it.

The figure and text shown is repeated in many search warrants, one is the top of page 15 in SW18-112.

The longer teal arc band represents all points 1.26 miles from the Florissant tower in that sector for PF's phone RTT hit at 4:49:45. The teal arc band only crosses Hwy24 at one point (near the bottom)

The shorter red arc band represents all points .44 miles from the Florissant tower in that sector for KB's phone RTT hit at 4:50:33. The red arc only crosses Hwy24 at one point (near the top).

The driving distance on Hwy24 between those two points is 1.2 miles per Google and Mapquest. This section of Hwy24 is two lanes, no passing, no shoulders, blasted out rock face or guard rail, with yellow warning signs about curves. The reasonable speed or rate of travel is 45 mph. There is Google Street View available. Sunset on 11/22 was at 4:41PM so it was also after dark in the forested mountains.

PF only has 48 seconds between pings, his phone at 4:49:45 and KB's phone at 4:50:33. To convert 48 seconds to minutes, 48secs/60secs per min = .8mins

How fast would PF need to go to support the stated LE contention that the phones were moving together going west on Hwy24 toward PF's residence?

Formula:
actual miles/actual minutes x 60mph = actual mph

1.2/.8 x 60 = 90mph

90mph would be the rate of travel... if the phones were moving together... which must be why they never actually mention it.

MOO
Click to expand...

Yeah, those media people always interpret things incorrectly and use the wrong words. The search warrants merely used it as an example that the phones were moving towards Patrick's house. Nothing is said about rate of travel , sensitivity or specificity of the measurements, which probably they will go into at the trial. Additionally, if the road wasn't exactly straight to the Tower in between those two point in time, the calculation would be even different( yes, they probably do have limitations as to their accuracy)

You should perhaps be a consultant for the media so they don't do this again LOL.
 
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Dave F. said:
It is also important to note that PF's phone had connected thru the Woodland Park Tower at 4:37 pm, then connected through the Divide tower at 4:43 pm, before connecting with the Florissant tower at 4:49 pm......which firmly indicated travel westward. This was followed immediately by an extensive "attempt to connect" commencing at 4:50 through the Florissant tower lasting 4 minutes and 21 seconds. The timing, duration and location strongly suggest that PF was at his front gate, attempting to complete a call before getting out of his truck and opening the gate. During this clear chain of events, KB's phone was not previously connected to the Woodland Park tower, did not get handed off to the Divide tower, and only pinged the Florissant tower, indicating that the phone was either turned on or swiped to "wake up" one minute before that 4:50 ping. If the phones were traveling together, this could only be accomplished by one person doing some extremely tricky phone juggling at 90 mph on a dark and twisting mountain road with a child beside him. It is much more probable that PF's phone and KB's phone were in different vehicles within the northeast facing quadrant of the Florissant tower reception area. During the phone call attempt commencing at 4:50 pm, PF's phone was most likely still connected through the northeast facing sector of the Florissant tower, but KB's phone, which was not attempting a call, would have been expected to ping the Florissant tower again during that time, to transfer to the northwest facing sector of the tower. There was no ping. There is no evidence to contradict a notion that that KB's phone was traveling in the opposite direction, heading back toward Divide and Woodland Park at 4:50 pm, while the data does prove that PF's phone was traveling westward at that time.
The data is clearly stated in SW 18-11, Affidavit A, on pages 8 and 10 of 26.
Colorado Judicial Branch - Teller - Cases of Interest - The People of the State of Colorado v. Patrick Frazee
Click to expand...

Dave,
Great to see you back! I have a question for both you and Sandy. You both appear to really know this stuff, so what is your theory about KBs phone location? Did he leave it at her residence and go back to get it later? Could he have had it with him but it was turned off once he got on the road?
 
I have no comment about whether the phones were both in PF's possession or not, or someone else caravanned with him with a phone in each vehicle, or whatever else scenario it could have been, but just wanted to point out that just a few minutes after sunset isn't dark. Dusk perhaps. Of course still no one is driving 90 on that road regardless.
 
Auntie Cipation said:
I have no comment about whether the phones were both in PF's possession or not, or someone else caravanned with him with a phone in each vehicle, or whatever else scenario it could have been, but just wanted to point out that just a few minutes after sunset isn't dark. Dusk perhaps. Of course still no one is driving 90 on that road regardless.
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Don’t mean to be disagreeable but sunset in winter is dark where I live.
 
It is also quite important to take careful note of LE’s disclaimers concerning phone data, which can be summarized by saying that ONLY the cell phone data for 3:30 pm to 5:17 pm PST on 11/25/2018 states a complete picture of the activity of KB’s phone. This is the time period during which KKL exchanged vehicles at the WalMart parking lot in Jerome with MG, went to Malad Canyon overlook to send the final messages, and disconnected the phone from cellular coverage. All other cell phone data is incomplete. The LE disclaimers are:
“Due to the timing of when search warrants were issued, only a portion of the RTT records were captured, RTT data is only retained for eight days for most of the connections on the Verizon network. For up to thirty days, only failed attempts or dropped attempts are recorded by the network and it is not a complete view of all of the phone’s activity. In this instance, all of the RTT data shown from 11/22/2018 through 11/25/2018 at approximately 3:30 pm local time reflects these failed attempts. All of the data for Patrick’s phone through 11/25/2018 would reflect the failed attempts. One example of a failed attempt would be a phone trying to make or receive a call in an area with poor cellular network coverage.”
SW 18-118, Affidavit A, Page 12 of 26, 3rd paragraph
Colorado Judicial Branch - Teller - Cases of Interest - The People of the State of Colorado v. Patrick Frazee
and
“Since the only RTT activity at this time reflects unsuccessful connection attempts with the network, it is possible that there would be no record of the phones final destination if that destination was properly served by a Verizon tower since the tower records for the successful connections were no longer available.”
SW 18-118, Affidavit A, Page 13 of 26, 1st paragraph, 3rd sentence
Colorado Judicial Branch - Teller - Cases of Interest - The People of the State of Colorado v. Patrick Frazee
 
LE also failed to secure any data at all from three important tower locations:
1. The Verizon tower atop South Twin Mountain, northwest of Canon City. It provides cellular coverage all the way north through Fremont county to near the junction of Colorado Highways 112 AND 11 in Teller county, including Nash ranch. Oddly, this tower data is untilized to create the diagrams on pages 1 and, 15 of SW 18-118, Attachment A, but did not capture any phone usage in the vicinity of Nash Ranch.
GPS coordinates 38°58'48.56"N/105°21'14.98"W
2. The COMNET/Four Corners tower at 110 Rainbow Drive, Lake George. It provides overlapping coverage through Florissant and southward west of Cripple Creek, including US Highway 24 west of Florissant/PF ranchette. Data from this tower, or lack of it, could have been used to identify the direction of travel of KB's phone.
GPS coordinates 38°56'5.11"N, 105°29'32.77"W
3. The COMNET/Four Corners tower at 110 Rainbow Drive, above Eleven Mile Reservoir, which provides blanket coverage for the entire area of father figure RS's ranch holdings. Data from this location would have confirmed or eliminated the p;ossibility that KB's phone could have passed through Florissant from the south (Nash ranch) prior to pinging on the Fklorissant tower. It also could have provided a wealth of confirmation or denial of the following two days cellular activity.
GPS coordinates 38°30'55.44"N, 105°18'28.53"W

SW 18-118, Affidavit A
Colorado Judicial Branch - Teller - Cases of Interest - The People of the State of Colorado v. Patrick Frazee
 
Irmese said:
Not where I live. I live in the flatlands according to friends who live in the mountains. When I travel to the mountains I am always surprised at how quickly it gets dark as the sun goes down behind the mountains.
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Agreed. I lived two summers exactly 19.72 miles north of the spot of the 4:50 pm ping. When the sun drops behind the mountains, it's dark. Real dark. IMO
 
As far as KB's cell phone data (and lack thereof) between 11/22 and 11/24, to me it indicates that KB was not in possession of her phone and supports what KK said, that KB was already dead. I don't really need to know exactly how fast it was travelling. The attempted connections tell me an approximate area. Now, if someone else also carried KB's phone, it would be nice to know who that was.
 
Irmese said:
As far as KB's cell phone data (and lack thereof) between 11/22 and 11/24, to me it indicates that KB was not in possession of her phone and supports what KK said, that KB was already dead. I don't really need to know exactly how fast it was travelling. The attempted connections tell me an approximate area. Now, if someone else also carried KB's phone, it would be nice to know who that was.
Click to expand...

Agreed, that certainly would be nice to know. It might make, or break the case. IMO
 
I got nothing to add about the phones. I merely want to say that I grew up in the deep mountains of WV. A lot of our roads are super curvy and very narrow. The curves are so bad, people call them “kiss your *** curves”. I’ve been close to late for curfew, and I FLEW on those roads. I even hit 100 a few times. When you’re used to driving a road constantly, you just get used to being able to drive fast on them. (Unfortunately, one time I put the car up on 2 wheels and scared the crap out of myself.) But, it’s common to go really fast. These include 2 way roads that are only 1 lane. Idk how fast PF went. Just adding my 2¢ for what it’s worth. Totally JMO and experience.
 
SandyQLS said:
My post is about the truth and physical limitations. It is not possible to drive 90mph on that section of Hwy24. PF presumably had possession of his own phone and his RTT hit is clear. It is more "likely" that he was not in possession of KB's phone, contrary to the SW statement, signed by a judge.
Click to expand...

Your math may be right or wrong, and it doesn’t really make much difference.

This is a particular time period, incredibly small when compared to the two days PF was sending texts and making calls, from Kelsey’s phone.

Logic and common sense says that Kelsey’s phone shows up near his, because that’s where it was.

Kelsey didn’t rise from the dead, get in her car, and happen to drive near the location where PF was driving.

Her body was almost certainly in the back.

This guy’s got way more problems than speed and velocity anyways.
 
StarEyes said:
I got nothing to add about the phones. I merely want to say that I grew up in the deep mountains of WV. A lot of our roads are super curvy and very narrow. The curves are so bad, people call them “kiss your *** curves”. I’ve been close to late for curfew, and I FLEW on those roads. I even hit 100 a few times. When you’re used to driving a road constantly, you just get used to being able to drive fast on them. (Unfortunately, one time I put the car up on 2 wheels and scared the crap out of myself.) But, it’s common to go really fast. These include 2 way roads that are only 1 lane. Idk how fast PF went. Just adding my 2¢ for what it’s worth. Totally JMO and experience.
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Colorado roads are slightly different from Virginia roads, for starters, granite anywhere from sand to boulders is rolling off onto the pavement constantly. Since curves are generally where the rock was blasted out to make the road in the first place, that's where it collects...........and it's just like ball bearings. Like you, I once thought nothing of driving as fast as I possibly could, but I was on Colorado roads. I vaguely remember the back of the car taking the lead wirthout my permission, and I must have been on two wheels for an instant or so, then the side windows all broke out from the force of hitting the ground and it was suddenly upside down. The car was sort of mometarily suspended until it gently rolled back down to rest almost upright again, in the barrow pit I had completely missed going over. I can guarantee you no one drove 90 mph through that stretch of Highway 24 at ANY time of day, unless they were as stupid as that.
 
SandyQLS said:
My post is about the truth and physical limitations. It is not possible to drive 90mph on that section of Hwy24. PF presumably had possession of his own phone and his RTT hit is clear. It is more "likely" that he was not in possession of KB's phone, contrary to the SW statement, signed by a judge.
Click to expand...


Got it. So are you saying that someone else helped him and that is your opinion and was following him? Someone who shall go nameless? And Are You theorizing That Somebody Else killed her or just that somebody was following her after she was killed and that person had the phone and their car following him.
 
Dave F. said:
Agreed. I lived two summers exactly 19.72 miles north of the spot of the 4:50 pm ping. When the sun drops behind the mountains, it's dark. Real dark. IMO
Click to expand...

On some cases, folks have gone back and said what time moonrise was and whether it was a full moon or a new moon. Has someone he ever looked into such on this thread?
 
dixiegirl1035 said:
Got it. So are you saying that someone else helped him and that is your opinion and was following him? Someone who shall go nameless? And Are You theorizing That Somebody Else killed her or just that somebody was following her after she was killed and that person had the phone and their car following him.
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I think she's clearly saying that the data does not establish, much less prove, that PF had the phone. IMO
 
dixiegirl1035 said:
On some cases, folks have gone back and said what time moonrise was and whether it was a full moon or a new moon. Has someone he ever looked into such on this thread?
Click to expand...

US Weather Service data for November 22, 2018 at Divide, Colorado:
Sunset: 4:43 pm
Moonrise: 4:48 pm
Astronomical Twilight: 6:14 pm
Moon phase: Full
Cloud condition: Fully overcast
High temperature: 40 degrees F
Low Temperature: 12 degrees F

USA Sunrise Sunset Calendars
 
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