Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #99

[Seenit]

I have tried to keep up with the threads, but cannot do it. I apologize if I am bring something up that has already been discussed.

Watching Carter during the release of the new information, I was struck with how emotionally affected he was. He clearly was also angry. I am wondering if BG is contacting LE and taunting them? This seems "personal" on some level. The comments to the killer give me the feeling that BG may be getting a thrill out of watching LE looking like "fools" and that BG likes the power in that feeling.

See the transcription below:
Directly to the killer who may be in this room. We believe you are hiding in plain sight. For more than two years you never thought we would shift gears to a different investigative strategy but we have. We likely have interviewed you or someone close to you. We know that this is about power to you and you want to know what we know. And one day you will.

 

[x_files]

I’m so dang perplexed by the 2 sketches situation. 2 years of police distributing one sketch, the OBG sketch actually looking like the man in video, the YBG not, the two sketches looking very little alike, the use of the word “secondary” in the recent PC. (Secondary. Specifically said the old sketch is now “secondary”.). Just the whole thing.

So I’ve been mulling theories like all of us (day and night constantly percolating!). I’m not jazzed about anything I can come up with, but I do keep coming back to this-

Any thoughts on the possibility that OBG actually is the killer/the man seen on the bridge, but LE has now purposely put out this new sketch of someone who the killer knows and is close to... hoping it will scare the killer into confessing, or scare someone covering for him into coming forward because the killer or person covering won’t want the new sketch guy to be charged or pursued?

If it's a father/son working in tandem, then maybe hoping someone will turn them in.

 

[enelram]

Snipped for Focus
You bring up a very interesting point. I hadn't heard that RL wasn't home that day. Add to that, that something RL said about how his son and "friends" used to play down there as children. That immediately made me think it was someone local and someone who used to play down there and perhaps as they got older also frequented the bridge as teens would do. An element of risk. That's not saying this person still lives in Delphi (but maybe does) but may still have strong connections there. I think LE know they are now on the "right track" so-to-speak. JMO

Can someone local or familiar with the area of crime answer:
Is area of crime an advertised park with signage?
How would non-locals even know about the area to hike?
Maybe it's just logical that locals know about this area if it's
not widely known as a 'park'.
I suspect that's why LE says it's someone local to Delphi.

 

[susiQ]

I have tried to keep up with the threads, but cannot do it. I apologize if I am bring something up that has already been discussed.

Watching Carter during the release of the new information, I was struck with how emotionally affected he was. He clearly was also angry. I am wondering if BG is contacting LE and taunting them? This seems "personal" on some level. The comments to the killer give me the feeling that BG may be getting a thrill out of watching LE looking like "fools" and that BG likes the power in that feeling.

See the transcription below:
Directly to the killer who may be in this room. We believe you are hiding in plain sight. For more than two years you never thought we would shift gears to a different investigative strategy but we have. We likely have interviewed you or someone close to you. We know that this is about power to you and you want to know what we know. And one day you will.

I'm not sure any of us are getting caught up here. I try and fail all the time

Now, I don't see it quite that way, but you may be right and I'm wrong. Reminds me of a song

I don't get the feeling BG's taunting them. I don't think he's trying to draw attention to himself, exactly the opposite. I feel Carter and LE feel they've been played by BG or someone close to him that led the investigation of the trail. Directing attention to someone with a "history" that would take the fall. I think there's a lot more going on here than a little "mistake" with sketches. Some LE are pissed and that is were Carter's emotion comes from. You know, there are people that don't rage when they're angry, they cry. Carter is sad and he is mad. They are on the right track now and he's put the perp on notice. They're coming for the Coward of Carrol County! As always, MOO

 

[Bluedaisy100]

I'm a newbie to this forum. A sporadic reader at the time of the tragedy. Only now with the PC have I returned to catch up on the last 2 threads. Maybe my reengagement and interest is how a lot of local people are reacting. Going back through that day, conversations, little details now noticing discrepancies and things that upon reflection seem odd. I have doubts about what dna the police have. It's been two years, plenty of time for developing a familial profile. Maybe like in the Jayme Closs case, everything happening so quickly left no dna of the perp. Maybe this is why they think the whole thing went down so quickly.

 

[kkdj]

I'm not sure any of us are getting caught up here. I try and fail all the time

Now, I don't see it quite that way, but you may be right and I'm wrong. Reminds me of a song

I don't get the feeling BG's taunting them. I don't think he's trying to draw attention to himself, exactly the opposite. I feel Carter and LE feel they've been played by BG or someone close to him that led the investigation of the trail. Directing attention to someone with a "history" that would take the fall. I think there's a lot more going on here than a little "mistake" with sketches. Some LE are pissed and that is were Carter's emotion comes from. You know, there are people that don't rage when they're angry, they cry. Carter is sad and he is mad. They are on the right track now and he's put the perp on notice. They're coming for the Coward of Carrol County! As always, MOO

BBM This! ^^^^^

 

[enelram]

I'm not sure any of us are getting caught up here. I try and fail all the time

Now, I don't see it quite that way, but you may be right and I'm wrong. Reminds me of a song

I don't get the feeling BG's taunting them. I don't think he's trying to draw attention to himself, exactly the opposite. I feel Carter and LE feel they've been played by BG or someone close to him that led the investigation of the trail. Directing attention to someone with a "history" that would take the fall. I think there's a lot more going on here than a little "mistake" with sketches. Some LE are pissed and that is were Carter's emotion comes from. You know, there are people that don't rage when they're angry, they cry. Carter is sad and he is mad. They are on the right track now and he's put the perp on notice. They're coming for the Coward of Carrol County! As always, MOO

I actually thought LE was taunting the perp to the point that perp
might contact them. You know, anger him, belittle him, challenge him. Sadly this alone makes me wonder if LE has very
little to go on , right now.
Here's hoping lots of valid tips came in recently.

 

[Bluedaisy100]

One more thing...when BTK was active little was known about DNA evidence. In the Golden State Killer case the guy left copious amounts of DNA without a care in the world. Today's criminals are aware and more circumspect. BTW this is a great forum with lots of interesting ideas. Lack of agreement that generates discussion is a good thing. Helps everyone look at things from different angles.

 

[IceIce9]

Can someone local or familiar with the area of crime answer:
Is area of crime an advertised park with signage?
How would non-locals even know about the area to hike?
Maybe it's just logical that locals know about this area if it's
not widely known as a 'park'.
I suspect that's why LE says it's someone local to Delphi.

It is a popular hiking trail. There are many sections of old abandoned railroads here that have been turned into hiking or multi-use trails.

The old Monon rail line is the most popular as it runs throughout large portions of the state.

Here in Indiana, there are maps that you can obtain that highlight hiking trails and local attractions, like the Monon High Bridge.

Often there are pamphlets that are available at rest stops along interstate highways. There is a rest stop on I-65 north of the Delphi exit.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

This is an interesting thought indeed (al though I do wonder if expressing a broad link to Delphi (“We also believe this person is from Delphi–currently or has previously lived here, visits Delphi on a regular basis or works here”) is merely common sense and standard profiling, considering one would likely have to have known about the bridge.

Thinking about this further, in order for this to be the case (DNA linking him to Delphi), they would obviously need to have a familial/relative’s DNA source (“Does familial DNA work? Yes, Harmon emphatically answered. But he adds a qualifier: There must be a DNA sample from a family member in the database. If there's no family member in there, then police will not find a match after all of the tests are finished.“
Familial DNA search might unlock Delphi killer's identity)

So, if they have the suspect’s DNA but do NOT have a familial match which is likely imo, as not all persons submit their DNA to these ancestry-type databases, then here’s another scenario:

IF they suspect a particular person or have a very strong POI who may not currently be in the area and they do not know his whereabouts, I wonder if they would pull the “coffee cup trick” on a known family member.

I guess what I’m saying is when we think about DNA being obtained this way, we are always referring directly to the potential suspect. But perhaps this can also be applicable to family members of potential suspects? I wonder if they’ve ever collected DNA from a family member this way to confirm a potential familial link?

I think 23 and me should give a Father’s/mother’s day discount this year for citizens of Carroll County. BOGO maybe?

 

[Cyber sleuth]

The jacket he's wearing is so worn with the weapon imprint pretty apparent. It had to have been his for awhile. As well it always seemed to me it had navy camo sleeves, distinct in my opinion. And I'm thinking he has a black and white skull trim balaclava around his neck and the white is what we see. It would be positioned there so he could quickly pull it up over his face as a disguise. My opinion, surely someone would remember a son, boyfriend, coworker, neighbor, etc wearing both or one

I think these items came from Goodwill or the like and was promptly discarded. Which would bring DNA of an innocent person to the crime scene as well.
Can you imagine if your donated clothes landed you in a hot seat?

 

[Wells]

I just skipped from the top of page 17 to the bottom of page 17 but here's a wild idea. We have been assuming that LE is looking for the suspect who was seen driving the vehicle. We could be totally wrong. LE could be looking for the ALIBI who was driving the vehicle. Let me explain. Let's say LE has a description of a vehicle they believe was connected to the crime. Alibi says early on, "I was the one driving the vehicle, not Suspect John Doe. " If they can determine that the ALIBI is lying, that might make the job of getting the alibi to tell the truth that much easier.

 

[susiQ]

I think 23 and me should give a Father’s/mother’s day discount this year for citizens of Carroll County. BOGO maybe?

What a splendid idea!!

 

[mekeritrig]

I think 23 and me should give a Father’s/mother’s day discount this year for citizens of Carroll County. BOGO maybe?

If LE needed to establish a DNA database of people in the area I imagine the number of people who would willingly provide samples would be more than enough to map every family local to Carroll County. They either already have a familial connection or don't have the DNA evidence to make one to begin with. I'd guess the latter.

 

[MistyWaters]

From WLFI

"Monday marked two weeks since new information was released in the Delphi double homicide investigation, and State Police spoke to News 18 about the changes.

While Sgt. Kim Riley wouldn't give any more details on why police changed the sketch, he said it makes investigators feel closer to catching the killer.

"We just feel this is a more accurate account of what we believe is the possible murder suspect in this Abby and Libby case," said Riley.

However, he said police have received a lot of new information on people who live in the area since releasing the sketch. That's important, because investigators believe the killer has close ties to Delphi"

“ Police are still hoping for fresh tips about one piece of information released in the news conference.

"We're still looking for the car that was parked in the lot," Riley told News 18. "If somebody can give us that information, we want that information as quickly as possible."

The importance of the car also ties into why police now believe the killer is local. Riley said after reviewing many tips, investigators determined he was able to get around quickly on the day the girls were killed, and seemed to know the area.

The car would have been seen between noon and five on Feb. 13, 2017 at the old DCS parking lot, according to police. The office is on County Road 300 North near the Hoosier Heartland Highway. The building has since been demolished and the lot is vacant.

Since police believe the killer is local, and because the case has received so much of their focus over the last two years, News 18 also asked Riley if there was a chance the killer could be someone police have already interviewed.

"Somebody may have already interviewed him," said Riley. "I'm not going to say they have or have not, but there's a possibility that has happened. The person apparently gave the investigating officers the information they were looking for. We have to try to go back and check on the information that we have received."

So the investigative focus is still on the driver of the parked vehicle, a car -

“Police are still hoping for fresh tips about one piece of information released in the news conference.

We're still looking for the car that was parked in the lot," Riley told News 18. "If somebody can give us that information, we want that information as quickly as possible."

The importance of the car also ties into why police now believe the killer is local. Riley said after reviewing many tips, investigators determined he was able to get around quickly on the day the girls were killed, and seemed to know the area.”

 

[Boxer]

This is an interesting thought indeed (al though I do wonder if expressing a broad link to Delphi (“We also believe this person is from Delphi–currently or has previously lived here, visits Delphi on a regular basis or works here”) is merely common sense and standard profiling, considering one would likely have to have known about the bridge.

Thinking about this further, in order for this to be the case (DNA linking him to Delphi), they would obviously need to have a familial/relative’s DNA source (“Does familial DNA work? Yes, Harmon emphatically answered. But he adds a qualifier: There must be a DNA sample from a family member in the database. If there's no family member in there, then police will not find a match after all of the tests are finished.“
Familial DNA search might unlock Delphi killer's identity)

So, if they have the suspect’s DNA but do NOT have a familial match which is likely imo, as not all persons submit their DNA to these ancestry-type databases, then here’s another scenario:

IF they suspect a particular person or have a very strong POI who may not currently be in the area and they do not know his whereabouts, I wonder if they would pull the coffee cup trick on a known family member.

I guess what I’m saying is when we think about the “coffee cup trick”, we are always referring directly to the potential suspect. But perhaps this can also be applicable to family members of potential suspects? I wonder if they’ve ever collected DNA from a family member this way to confirm a potential familial link?

Yes they can get DNA from a family member.
The GSK had a cousin (?) In a nursing home - police got warrant for his DNA swab. When police told them
what they wanted the sample for he voluntarily gave a sample , and late said he was proud to have helped.

JMO.

They cannot lift true conventional DNA from clothes if it does not come from saliva, semen, blood or some other bodily fluid. "Touch DNA" or "Trace DNA" is very controversial and unreliable. It cannot be used in a court of law because it is extremely susceptible to contamination. There can be secondary and tertiary transfer.

We shed millions of DNA cells every day, and we are covered with the cells of other humans; on our clothes, on our skin, even on our faces. DNA is so infinitesimal, it is hard for us to even imagine how minute it truly is because we are programmed to see a larger world.

The real world is not a CSI episode. The general public has been conditioned to expect whole DNA and DNA that can be dated to the crime scene. Nothing could be further from the truth.

MOO finding all the reasons why that touch DNA is present opens lines of investigation.
MOO even though the presence of a suspects touch DNA's can be successfully challenged by a defense attorney, MOO it's still is a huge tool for the detectives.

 

[FinePrint]

I just re watched a GH video that I had seen some time ago. Wow....I urge anyone who hasn't seen it or if its been a while since you've seen it you should take a second look. In light off the latest details provided by LE this video gives some good context.
Derrick's Path and more Libby and Abby Delphi Indiana

 

[GoBuckeyes]

Remember how long it took
for them to just process the scene for
DNA? They were not even finished in August 2017. I can try to find the interview with Holeman around then.
Evidence teams took away large sections the forest floor, leaves and all.

Now THAT is thorough!! Can anyone remember a case where all or part of the crime scene was outdoors and they preserved it like this? At least 6 months of evidence collection. What dedication.

 

[MizStery]

Duplicate Post

 

[marisab67]

Opinion - I think it means that vehicle at the abandoned building along with other info, has led LE to believe, that someone has lied to them about where they were on the 13th....moo

Yes. How could they know that he moved quickly if they don’t know who he is. I think maybe there is some sort of video footage of the car in question and they just need to verify who was driving it that day. JMO.