Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #99

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We know where the photo was taken of him on her phone. They were on the far side of the bridge at that time. With your scenario, they would have had to have passed him after they took that picture, and he would have had to have followed them all the way back to the other side where they came from. I just don't think that happened. My opinion. For that to have happened he would have had to been behind them without them being under duress and having to catch up to them right before they were getting back to where they were started. That just doesn't make sense to me. I just don't see it.

Got it. I'm trying to figure out how they got to where their bodies were found. Because if they got off the bridge at the far end then they would've had to cross the stream/river.

I know this has all been discussed previously but I glossed over those discussions because this is the first time I've really been able to orient myself and understand where everything was, since like @steeltowngirl, this map works better with my brain. I couldn't really focus on the google map one very well or process what I was seeing!

Don't ask me why! It's very detailed!
 
I think most people and LE believe the girls had not turned around when he approached them. If they crossed the creek (which seems almost certain per some LE comments) they did NOT go back across the bridge.

They started on the NW end and were taken off the SE end and across the creek. imho

Ok. So it must not have been very full at the time and not hard to cross? This makes sense.
 
In the fall of 2016, as was my usual habit (and still is), my dogs woke me up about 5am for me to let them out in the backyard to go potty. I let them out the backdoor, make a pot of coffee, grab a cup when ready, and then go sit on my back deck and watch the dogs and drink my coffee while listening to the news on the radio.

My back deck and yard look across the back alley to a government agency building (I live in the city) where I can see the back door, which is also the employee entrance. As per usual I noticed an employee arrive to work (his usual time, per my observations in the past) walk past the door, and towards the opposite end of the building, toward the parking area.

Three minutes later, I hear a gun shot.

Unfortunately, hearing gun shots is a common occurrence here. Not necessarily at 5:50am though. So, I guess I wasn't too surprised to hear sirens just a few minutes later. I went back inside after about five minutes, and started my day.

Later that day, I read that a person (a well known neighbor who often was seen out walking at all hours, nice person, no criminal history) had been shot and killed just two blocks from my house. After reading the news report, the timing made it clear that I had heard that fatal shot. The victim was discovered deceased on the sidewalk by a gentleman who had seen a man fleeing the scene with a particular description that could resemble the employee I had seen just a few minutes before I heard the gun shot. That person had been walking toward where the victim was found, and could possibly (elapsed walking time) have witnessed, known something, or even have been the killer IMO.

I called in what I had seen to the tip line. Never heard anything back from anyone. The murder is still unsolved. I often wonder if my tip ever made it to an investigator. I have called twice more over than last almost three years, and have never heard back from anyone to follow up.

My point is, maybe the guy I saw had nothing to do with the murder, but that whole morning is indelible in my mind, even though what I saw happened prior to the murder. I think because that morning later became associated with such a horrific crime, the details of that morning have stuck with me all this time. I think LE is hoping someone saw something that day that seemed ordinary, but because such a heinous crime was committed later that day, even the ordinary is indelible for them, for example a car parked at the DCS lot, and that person can provide valuable seemingly mundane details, that will lead to the killer.

Long post, sorry, but wanted to share a perspective of how one's memory can hang on to seemingly small details. I purposely did not share those here in this post because I am still hoping that what I observed may help to bring answers to this person's family and friends.

It sounds like you very well may have seen the killer. I wonder why you had no feedback, why it is not solved or if they talked to who you saw.

Your point I agree with. If one sees or notes a vehicle or driver or the wrong driver in the wrong vehicle, etc. and later hears of a double murder of girls unlike has ever happened in your area, you are going to recall it.

I only ever once called in a tip. I assumed naturally and did not care that they would know my phone number if they ever needed it, I figured they would just know through LE ways who I was, etc., I have nothing to hide but do not ever want to be someone who they think calls over nothing because that is so very not me. I was never asked my name nor for a number. I never found out whether the tip was something they knew or did not. Like many, I do not call in tips like I saw a guy who looked like this, I thought of a way to figure out who did this, etc. I would never. This though was far more specific than that. I figured they had realized the same and I do not like to involve myself, they need all of their resources to concentrate on the crime. I gave it until like two weeks later it was still nagging at me and I was thinking what if they do not realize this... So I bit the bullet and called.

I know what case it is, what I found and where I determined it, from what and how. I will never forget it. In fact, that case is solved and yet I still wonder why what I noticed was wrong and probably always will. People I shared it with still ask me as well and find it odd. I will probably never know. But it remains with me, someone who could not tell you what my neighbor drives lol.

So yes, if someone saw something, whether normal or notable, and later found out two girls were missing nearby, it cements one's memory because maybe it will matter...

Imo anyhow.
 
Thank you TT, Gitana, Dixie Girl, others who liked or commented on my post.

1. My main reason for my post was to try and relate to others how on a normal day, even before the crime takes place, I didn't just remember the gun shots or the fact that this man was murdered, but I remember all the ordinary things I observed beforehand, details which only that person I saw would know and did not write in my post about, which is why I think the information about the car LE is asking about in Delphi parked in the lot from 12-5 would mean something to someone out there who saw something (small details) before the crimes were committed.

2. Other LE tipline, detectives office, and Crimestoppers, I told no one except my partner.

3. I will contact the FBI today.

4. I hope to encourage anyone with any small or ordinary recollection from that day in Delphi who may have seen a vehicle parked in the old DCS lot to contact LE no matter how ordinary or mundane or redundant you think it may be.

5. BTW, the employee I saw that morning evidently stopped working there, or at least at that location a couple weeks later. No idea where he is now.

Your last point makes your tip even more intriguing!
 
I dont think they even had a chance of going back because thats when we see BG in the video possibly telling them to go "down the hill." Then he got them across the Deer Creek where they were found. How we dont know. Were they alive when they crossed the creek? MOO
It would seem probable that they were alive and murdered where they were found. He had very little time to commit this crime and I don't think he could have carried them across. JMO
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I think most people and LE believe the girls had not turned around when he approached them. If they crossed the creek (which seems almost certain per some LE comments) they did NOT go back across the bridge.

They started on the NW end and were taken off the SE end and across the creek. imho

Just about every video reacted has that very scenario yet LE stated that none of them are right. But given the time frame and the locations that we do know I can't figure out any other way.

Unless it is that the girls did run initially and got to the other side on their own before he caught up. Maybe one injured herself while getting away that slowed them down. Or they made it across and up the other side and then he cut them off from the private homes and said down the hill.
 
It would seem probable that they were alive and murdered where they we found. He had very little time to commit this crime and I don't think he could have carried them across. JMO

Thanks that's what I was thinking too. Between the time of DG's last phone call with LG and his arrival, he had a very small window to commit crime & escape.
 
Regarding the car. . .
What if no one actually witnessed a car there? What if they only found evidence of a car being parked there?
Something along the lines of motor oil, tire tracks, leaky radiator, skid marks, dumped out ashtray or other detritus, etc. I can't recall if I've seen this theory before, but it just sort of popped into my head. MOO

MOO many searchers were out 2/13/17 so their cars may have parked there also in the evening.

Ok. So it must not have been very full at the time and not hard to cross? This makes sense.

MOO there is a place to
cross creek between the SE end of bridge and where they were found that is only 3-4 inches deep.
 
Thank you TT, Gitana, Dixie Girl, others who liked or commented on my post.

1. My main reason for my post was to try and relate to others how on a normal day, even before the crime takes place, I didn't just remember the gun shots or the fact that this man was murdered, but I remember all the ordinary things I observed beforehand, details which only that person I saw would know and did not write in my post about, which is why I think the information about the car LE is asking about in Delphi parked in the lot from 12-5 would mean something to someone out there who saw something (small details) before the crimes were committed.

2. Other LE tipline, detectives office, and Crimestoppers, I told no one except my partner.

3. I will contact the FBI today.

4. I hope to encourage anyone with any small or ordinary recollection from that day in Delphi who may have seen a vehicle parked in the old DCS lot to contact LE no matter how ordinary or mundane or redundant you think it may be.

5. BTW, the employee I saw that morning evidently stopped working there, or at least at that location a couple weeks later. No idea where he is now.

Good example of someone having an afterthought (when you said by the way) that might be significant to law enforcement.
 
Mitochondrial DNA, MDNA can be extracted from a hair that has been naturally shed. MDNA, which cannot be used for individualization, can narrow the source of the hair down to a certain family group (MDNA is passed from mother to all offspring).

LE may have sifted through the debris gathered and found a naturally shed hair and has been pursuing the ancestry data bases. LE can determine general age range from a naturally shed hair. A naturally shed hair cannot reveal definite identification that would stand up in court.

LE also may have some partial nuclear DNA which revealed telomere length (the end caps of DNA) which would reveal relative age. This might have steered LE to the new BG, but has not provided enough certainty for an arrest.

One would hope that if this is the case, he has an extremely rare mitoDNA, or a more common one, but with private mutations that make it rare.
But even a common mito DNA could identify a cluster of people, and then, some are past the age, some live in West Virginia, etc. So, there still would be only a few fitting the profile, and then, they will be checking alibis.

It would be worse if the hair came out of a wig made out of natural hair, though. (Not an impossible thing). But then, people would notice someone who is balding wearing the wig that day.
 
This is a very rough, approximate sketch. I would love to see someone with a.) neater handwriting b.) better artistic skills c.) more verified MSM info d.) all of the above take a crack at making something better. Apologies for the delay. Not my best effort but it gives us a starting point. The 4 handwritten notes are the bottom I believe are verified MSM accounts but I couldn't find times or approximate map locations. This could be all wrong and I'm open to corrections.
Edited to add: I'm an accountant, not Van Gogh.
 

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The Shack Reference is making sense now.
MOO

Remember that the movie version of The Shack was released on 3/3/17, so after the murders. The book was first published in 2008. Just what if the perp read the book, and perhaps this literal shack figures into the crime.

If the perp is a reader that tells us something, and if he is a reader of books with a religious tone, that tells us something more.

Theoretically, criminal actions joining “The Shack” book and the outbuilding shack could comprise the “twist” LE said they’d never seen before (& I’m paraphrasing their statement).
 
My understanding is that they were dropped off at the North East part of the trail and walked across the bridge, and over the creek, heading south west. If they were dropped off around 1:30 then I wonder what they were doing for the first 10 or 15 minutes. I recall the bridge not taking a long time to cross (10-15 minutes or so, max 20??). The photo of Abby was at approx 2:07 and BG is not visible on the bridge at that time. Le has said BG was seen on bridge at 2:30 which I suspect is the time stamp on the video. There were statements made they went to take photos and do something else (taboo topic) and that something else was at the SW end of bridge which explains why they were heading that direction and not back towards their pick up spot when the video was taken. They hadn't yet got to where they wanted to go IMO.

I don't think the timeline videos are incorrect because of the vehicle barricade observed way back in the photo of Abby and that's at the NE end of bridge. There aren't any at the SE end. At one point I thought we had everything backwards and they were on their way back, not having to cross the creek on foot but those posts at the NE end seal the deal for me that GH is on the right track with his videos.
 
This is a very rough, approximate sketch. I would love to see someone with a.) neater handwriting b.) better artistic skills c.) more verified MSM info d.) all of the above take a crack at making something better. Apologies for the delay. Not my best effort but it gives us a starting point. The 4 handwritten notes are the bottom I believe are verified MSM accounts but I couldn't find times or approximate map locations. This could be all wrong and I'm open to corrections.
Edited to add: I'm an accountant, not Van Gogh.
Wells nice job. So I'm confused.

I see you have FSG at the trail head at 3:15 which sounds right but then you have FSG at the Freedom Bridge at 2:35 which I don't understand.

From what I understand Derrick came upon FSG at the trail head at approx 3:15 and then he takes the trail towards the water, sees nothing, heads back to the trail head and takes the trail towards the Freedom Bridge and sees FSG again so the time FSG is seen again by Derrick would be after 3:15....What am I getting wrong???
 
Wells nice job. So I'm confused.

I see you have FSG at the trail head at 3:15 which sounds right but then you have FSG at the Freedom Bridge at 2:35 which I don't understand.

From what I understand Derrick came upon FSG at the trail head at approx 3:15 and then he takes the trail towards the water, sees nothing, heads back to the trail head and takes the trail towards the Freedom Bridge and sees FSG again so the time FSG is seen again by Derrick would be after 3:15....What am I getting wrong???

He was on Freedom Bridge at 2:35. Later, he saw Libby's Dad at 3:15. Since we have two MSM confirmations of him at different times and different locations I thought it best to include both.
 
My guess is that the girls had already seen him at the NE end of the bridge and had an interaction with him that creeped them out. He might have waited to follow them as there may have been a witness nearby that would have wondered why he was following so closely. The girls might have been hanging out at the SW end hoping he would be gone so they could head back but then he appeared and there was no one around to help them. MOO.
 
I think we will find out the shack, cell phone movement are just red herrings in this case.

I think many of us have tried to spin it into some highly complicated crime.

I think there was a creepy guy who fantasized about girls

Probably even watched girls on that same trail numerous times

He came that day with the intent to abduct and kill

He saw Abby and Libby, saw the chance to isolate them

Marched them down the hill

Then either across the creek and he killed them, or they fled across the creek and he shot them.

He then likely casually walked back to his car and drove away

He wasn’t cunning he wasn’t sly, he was just extremely lucky
 
This is a very rough, approximate sketch. I would love to see someone with a.) neater handwriting b.) better artistic skills c.) more verified MSM info d.) all of the above take a crack at making something better. Apologies for the delay. Not my best effort but it gives us a starting point. The 4 handwritten notes are the bottom I believe are verified MSM accounts but I couldn't find times or approximate map locations. This could be all wrong and I'm open to corrections.
Edited to add: I'm an accountant, not Van Gogh.

I think this map is throwing me off little because I thought the bodies were found near the creek behind the cemetery?
 

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Wells nice job. So I'm confused.

I see you have FSG at the trail head at 3:15 which sounds right but then you have FSG at the Freedom Bridge at 2:35 which I don't understand.

From what I understand Derrick came upon FSG at the trail head at approx 3:15 and then he takes the trail towards the water, sees nothing, heads back to the trail head and takes the trail towards the Freedom Bridge and sees FSG again so the time FSG is seen again by Derrick would be after 3:15....What am I getting wrong???

Hmmmm... that would mean 3 sightings of FSH. 1 @ 2:35, 1 @ 3:15 and a 3rd after 3:15. I wasn't aware of the 3rd sighting. Let me see if I can find any more info.
 
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