Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #102

[Jamie737]

With the additional information from LE and the profiler I now really wonder if the murderer used a ruse to get the girls to walk to creek edge and his pre-selected killing spot.

What that ruse was may be in the gap in the audio.

Given the emotion this evokes in Carter it’s possible that the killer pretended to be a police officer. Wouldn’t that be terrible?

 

[rainwaterstill]

I was asked to identify a family member after they were brought DOA to the hospital.

I can't imagine. I am sorry for your loss.

 

[Cutiekitty]

If they knew who he was, they never would have shown the sketch. Why show a sketch that may or may not really look like the guy if all they want are “final pieces of puzzle”? If they know who he is, then they know who he knows and would speak to those people. Not go on national tv.
Jmo

To see if there were any witnesses that may have seen him.

They may have phone info (pings), a shaky alibi and they may know it’s his car or he had easy access to it. All of this is good, but doesn’t put him physically in the park. Witness ID would.

 

[MDATCA]

[


I can understand not seeing them..but anybody in the vicinity should have heard screams, or frenzied sounds of rustling leaves, sound travels further and clearer through barren trees. From what I read and watch, the Bridge is a quiet peaceful place I just don't know how BG did this so covertly if he isn't an experienced killer.

Do we know how many people were actually there at that time? Did anyone see the girls prior to them crossing? I have read about FSG, CE, lady walking her dog, couple under the bridge and group of teens.
CEs time is after the girls by enough time for it to have ended but does establish another person on that side of the bridge. Although IMO it was already done and BG was gone.

 

[Cutiekitty]

In my opinion, one or both yelled screamed at least once. A gun was probably used to threaten them to go down the hill. Early on I asked my teen girls if they would leave a friend and run for help, they both said no. They would stick it out and fight and scream. I'm betting they did, but they were just two little girls ...Praying everyday for an arrest

I think one of the girls was 5’4” (maybe 5’3”) and the other 5’5”/150lbs so they weren’t physically that little. If BG is 5’8” - 5’10”/180-200lbs they weren't that outmatched in size. Plus, they were both athletes. If they fought it was a heck of a fight. They also were both into law enforcement. It’s hard for me to see them compliantly and silently being abducted and allowing BG to do what he wanted even if he was armed. Not saying that didn’t happen it’s just so odd.

 

[Vinrah]

I don't get all this talk about "screaming". To scream when someone points a gun at you is extremly stupid. The killer probably had a gun. If not he had some other weapon obviously impressive enough to control 2 young and fit people. Any other weapon other than a gun likely would have been used to take one of the girls "hostage" to control the other one. To scream or show any kind of active resistance would have been also an intense danger in that situation, at least for the person in the killers control. To fight a person with a knife for example is also mostly impossible, even for folks with reasonable martial art skills. The general advice in a situation where the attacker has a knife is to run, but you cannot do that if he physically controls the other person and you do not want to leave that person to their tragic fate.

A fight only would have occured in the last minute when the victims realize they will definetly be killed. It is our instinct, and a healthy one, to not risk our lives until we are ultimately threatened.

 

[sleuther0192837465]

IF they crossed the creek, 3 people sloshing through the water would be loud, wouldn’t it? This crime happened quickly & so they’d have to move fairly swift through the water.
I understand that maybe the girls didn’t/couldn’t scream, but if we go with the theory that they crossed the creek, no one heard them?? I don’t know if I can buy into that.
Maybe someone did hear & they told LE, but we aren’t privy to that info?
MOO

 

[Cutiekitty]

The length of the bridge is reported to be 853 feet, that’s almost 3 football fields. Perhaps the girls were too terrified to scream, once they realized danger. And although nobody heard anything serious enough to call 911, we don’t know if someone heard something at the time but only reported it after they realized it might be connected to the murders. The mind can play tricks especially if the sound is not prolonged. It’s very common to hear something and but then rationalize it as something different and ordinary.

But I do agree, it’s almost impossible to imagine what could’ve occurred especially not knowing how the girls were initially approached.

Very true. It’s easy to forget we don’t have all of the info LE has.

 

[tresir2012]

Do we know how many people were actually there at that time? Did anyone see the girls prior to them crossing? I have read about FSG, CE, lady walking her dog, couple under the bridge and group of teens.
CEs time is after the girls by enough time for it to have ended but does establish another person on that side of the bridge. Although IMO it was already done and BG was gone.

Yes CE saw a man and another couple so saw three people altogether IIRC. The man she saw could have been FSG but what about the couple? Did they see anything I wonder. I agree the crime was likely over by the time these witnesses were at the bridge.
MOO.

 

[CSIDreamer]

I’ve wondered about something for quite some time. Is it possible to scream and run at the same time? I’m imagining that running in panicked terror requires full concentration including deep breathing in and out. Wouldn’t the act of screaming cause a shortness of breathe? If so, especially if a victim knew nobody was close enough to intervene, wouldn’t it be advantageous to just focus on attempting to flee? ie fight or flight.

You can because I've done it.

 

[susiQ]

I know we're not allowed to discuss SM here, but I've honestly yet to even come across a rumor like this on the other forums. (A similar one about a man and a vehicle, but wrong location.) So whoever the witness is, they've kept pretty quiet about what they saw and what happened. It hasn't leaked. If LE didn't put much stock into the witness's tip or sketch then it's interesting that the witness wasn't out there in Internetland talking about it. I find that in and of itself worth thinking about.

Well, I'm not really old and I'm not really young and I love my internet connection, for sure, but I have an aversion to SM and don't participate. Maybe it was someone like me

 

[susiQ]

I’ve been reading vintage crime stories recently, and this particular one caught my eye, as it very similar.

It happened in 1865, in the woods just outside of Boston.

A brother (age 12) and sister (14-15) were exploring, when they were attacked by a man wielding a knife.

The girl was the main target, as she was sexually assaulted before she was killed. Her brother tried to run, but he was also stabbed to death.

The killer was never caught.

https://www.google.com/amp/jamaicaplaingazette.com/2012/07/20/unsolved-murders-that-haunt-jp/amp/

There's nothing new under the sun

 

[steeltowngirl]

Yes he said 110 percent I think? Lemme grab the quote.

ETA:

“Carter said that during his most recent press conference about the case two weeks ago that he's 110% convinced the person who committed the murders was watching.“
ISP superintendent provides update on Delphi double murder investigation

Hmmm...watching? Or in the room? If it’s simply “watching”, that could mean online etc.

Or is someone in custody for another crime and they have a TV set up for said someone in a jail cell to watch? If so, I sure hope they are loop playing it 24/7 at high volume to break someone who knows something into talking.

 

[Brubon]

<modsnipped>

With the additional information from LE and the profiler I now really wonder if the murderer used a ruse to get the girls to walk to creek edge and his pre-selected killing spot.

What that ruse was may be in the gap in the audio.

Given the emotion this evokes in Carter it’s possible that the killer pretended to be a police officer. Wouldn’t that be terrible?

...or IS LE as bradfordsleuth hypothesized earlier (page 17)
That could be the reason we witnessed DC's extreme outrage and distress at the 4.22.19 press conference....ultimate betrayal of LE by LE.
MOO
Rest in heavenly peace, Abby and Libby.
(Forgive me...Jamie 737 is who I intended to quote. More coffee, please.)

 

[sunshineray]

I can't imagine. I am sorry for your loss.

Thank you

 

[TL4S]

With the additional information from LE and the profiler I now really wonder if the murderer used a ruse to get the girls to walk to creek edge and his pre-selected killing spot.

What that ruse was may be in the gap in the audio.

Given the emotion this evokes in Carter it’s possible that the killer pretended to be a police officer. Wouldn’t that be terrible?

Is it fact, or rumor, that the girls said or texted something about a creepy guy?

If it's true, than IMO, those girls would not have fallen for a ruse.

And even if it's not true, BG wasn't in a uniform, and he'd followed them to the end of the bridge, where they were alone with nowhere to go. He basically cornered them. With all the talk of "hinky meters" and "spidey senses" on here, I am willing to bet those girls possessed the same instincts. I think they were unnerved by his approach. JMO

I also feel that BG wouldn't take the time to engage them long enough to coax them down the hill, but rather coerce with a weapon for immediate compliance. MOO

 

[Laughing]

The vehicle: I still wonder about a county or state or contractor vehicle. We've talked about a job involving different work sites, right?

A county dump truck -- did someone remark to their carpool buddy "hey, look, Commissioner XYZ must be spiffing up his driveway! Hahaha!

Road grader -- "they need to do the babysitter's road, that place is a mess since the last snow"

State painting truck -- "oh, great, delays for us!"

Electric/gas utility -- "hope my power's on, what a bother to reset everything."

Tree trimmers -- "hope they trim trees, that last group butchered them"

IDK, obviously, but that sort of vehicle might not be remembered well, particularly if the underused public land is a 'sometimes' parking spot of this sort of vehicle?

Maybe those carpool buddies will remember today....


Best to the families & friends and LE!

JMHO YMMV

 

[sunshineray]

Do we know how many people were actually there at that time? Did anyone see the girls prior to them crossing? I have read about FSG, CE, lady walking her dog, couple under the bridge and group of teens.
CEs time is after the girls by enough time for it to have ended but does establish another person on that side of the bridge. Although IMO it was already done and BG was gone.

I've been looking for the timeframe of CE but haven't found it. She did mention seeing a guy when she got there, nothing more about when or where she saw him. I'm not sure if this linked site is allowed. It's not social media so I think it's ok?

Abigail Williams & Liberty German: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know | Heavy.com

 

[TL4S]

The vehicle: I still wonder about a county or state or contractor vehicle. We've talked about a job involving different work sites, right?

A county dump truck -- did someone remark to their carpool buddy "hey, look, Commissioner XYZ must be spiffing up his driveway! Hahaha!

Road grader -- "they need to do the babysitter's road, that place is a mess since the last snow"

State painting truck -- "oh, great, delays for us!"

Electric/gas utility -- "hope my power's on, what a bother to reset everything."

Tree trimmers -- "hope they trim trees, that last group butchered them"

IDK, obviously, but that sort of vehicle might not be remembered well, particularly if the underused public land is a 'sometimes' parking spot of this sort of vehicle?

Maybe those carpool buddies will remember today....


Best to the families & friends and LE!

JMHO YMMV

I'm not sure about this, but I think most company/government vehicles have driver's logs. If it was that kind of vehicle, the company should have been able to track down who was driving it that day, or at least who had access.

 

[cody22]

Announcement - After 2+ years of sleuthing this case I now have 10 live males, 1 dead male, 1 jailed male, and one live lesbian on my suspects list. I hope and am sure that they are all probably innocent...... If this case remains unsolved much longer, I will donate my suspects list for the 2020 Delphi, Indiana area, US Census Bureaus use...... Someone solve this case, please !......Harmony, You got any donuts left ?...Hint,hint, hint......?.......moo