Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #102

[tresir2012]

Okay, that interesting thought made me stop for a minute. So I looked on the map, and I'm not convinced an 18 wheeler could have turned in there, and it would have been harder yet for one to get out. Especially if there were any cars in the parking lot. JMO.

They could access it right off the highway itself looking at the Google street view (Dec 2018 pic) as there are no barriers.

 

[enelram]

So you are saying that NBG is actually Not BG but is a witness they are looking for who may know who BG is?

Sneaky of LE in that case. So does that mean LE know who BG is? Or think they know?

I don't know what LE thinks NBG knows or if he was simply in the
area to have seen or heard something.
Maybe LE is grasping for straws at this point.
Just thought I would pass this along as the scenario certainly fits
as to why the sudden change in appearance of BG.

 

[Ursamajr]

After all of this time, the one theory I that keeps running through my head is that Abby and Libby first noticed BG while he was approaching from the East and heading west. He may have been slowly walking behind them which raised their red flags as they took pictures and hung out on the bridge. He may have been walking slow to stay behind them and they decided to call his bluff. They stopped and he continued on past them walking west. He then slowed down again further along the bridge, lingering. Noticing this, Libby started recording. He doubled back and was now walking east. Libby became aware that their movements were now directly influencing BGs behavior.

Why I find this important:
It may suggest that BG originally came from the East unless he crossed the bridge multiple times pacing. He took Abby and Libby back in the direction from where he came and BG may have made his final exit from that area never needing to cross the bridge again. I don't remember if the witness who contributed to the BG w/hat sketch was entering from the east or west. If they passed him on the east side of the bridge (witness entering and BG exiting), that might explain the shift in the investigation. Leaving from the west would have been a bold and risky move for BG . I see him leaving the area closer to the murder scene and possibly bushwhacking his way out of there. Less of a chance of running into and being seen by a random person up on the bridge or on the trail leading towards it.

If this is what happened, then I'm leaning towards this being premeditated. His original plans may not have included Abby and Libby but he most likely planned on something. Animal abuse? Destruction of some sort? His clothes on first glance suggest he didn't plan on getting too dirty - at least his choice in the color of his pants don't. Any sort of dirt or blood (even water would leave the pants half dark from being wet) would be easily spotted on those pants from quite a distance and to any potential witnesses he passed trying to exit the area. Since I think some sort of foul play was intended by BG, I fully believe that he had a second set of pants under those jeans. It would explain how the fabric moves (try it) and the bulky nature of the jacket makes me think the same about his top - he is wearing multiple layers with the intention that he can dispose of a layer or two if needed. If this is true, this would explain the discrepancy between how bulky he looks in the video compared to the recently released sketch.

It doesn't look like he left any clothing behind for searchers and LO to find so he possibly removed them, took them, destroyed them in a small burn pit or pile elsewhere. Had a small fire or remnants of a small fire been found by the shack? Probably not since burning jeans would leave behind the zipper and buttons. Unless he was super vigilant and took those, I feel like he took the clothes and disposed of them elsewhere. I am both surprised that LO didn't let the public know they should be looking for discarded clothing or to keep an eye out for someone they know missing pants or a jacket. I don't think this would have tipped BG off leading him to destroy them unless he was keeping them as a souvenir, which, somehow I doubt.

Sorry this got dark. All IMO of course.

 

[enelram]

Wouldn't that be awfully slanderous of LE to put up an innocent witness's picture and specify that this is the killer? JMO

Well it's not a photo. But I would wager that it has brought the
public out to ID people to help LE be able to approach the witness
or the witness has come forward.

 

[BlueShoe]

I'm confused. Why at all would the girls record their own conversation (stuff girls talk about)? Why should BG have accelerated, if the girls anyway were cornered at the end of bridge? - Daily new questions to myself .....
Another mystery to me: What hair color does the YBG have: dark or not? Reddish-brown as known for the last 2 years (OBG) or another color? Important to know, IMO.

Yes. I think this is a really interesting thought. If "down the hill" comes right after the video, and then the girls are chatting normally to each other while under the control of BG, that makes no sense. That means the rest of the recording would either happen before the video, or that they were already walking along for a while, in other words, he did not confront them on the bridge. I am now confused as well. I can't see the theory that many have espoused here about the timing of the video and audio as working unless what LE says about the rest of the audio (normal girl talk) being wrong. Help me out here. MOO

 

[enelram]

Yah they wouldn't do that IMO

LE sometimes resort to methods not so straightforward when trying to get information they need.
I did look up the Dept. of Justice training site for LE, prosecutors,etc.
and there's numerous courses called "Boot Camp for Prosecutors"
so I find it very credible that this is what's going on.

 

[tresir2012]

I'm confused. Why at all would the girls record their own conversation (stuff girls talk about)? Why should BG have accelerated, if the girls anyway were cornered at the end of bridge? - Daily new questions to myself .....
Another mystery to me: What hair color does the YBG have: dark or not? Reddish-brown as known for the last 2 years (OBG) or another color? Important to know, IMO.

I think it still says reddish brown on the new flyer.

 

[Charlot123]

In the WISH interview Carter says something about ideas they had at the very beginning. Perhaps the original investigation was going in the right direction and then went in another direction because one witness seemed more reliable in those early days.

If they’re rethinking this and go back to the first days, it would make sense that they already have interviewed the killer. 2 years ago.

If that witness seemed more reliable and now they are doubting his/her testimony, then to me, it indicates the witness was white collar, and local, not someone involved in construction nearby two years ago.

I wonder if anyone can ask the witness to do polygraph? I doubt he/she would, but a refusal would be telling.

And if the witness is innocent, he/she would want to take the test...

 

[JaneEyre]

Do you mean they made up the bit about the sketch being two years old? Or that the sketch is so perfect, it turns out to actually look just like the perp they now know? Why, then, would they insist it is not necessarily a likeness of how he looks, and give such a broad age range?

I can’t find any other case, ever, where a sketch was used when LE already knew who they were eyeing as the perp. I also can’t find case when LE used a PC in that way, i.e appealing nationwide with little more than a sketch, if all they really need is one tip about a specific, known suspect. All the true crime shows I have seen detail how the police work quietly with friends and relatives of the suspect behind the scenes...not issuing a PC on a broad scale, in hopes the very person they need to call in, will do so.

I will eat my cat’s gross canned food if LE knows exactly who they are looking for info on. I just don’t buy it on amy level. Jmo

Not that I think you are wrong, but if you are, I’m going to need video of you eating the canned cat food.

 

[tresir2012]

I was thinking of a semi truck. Like a guy that makes deliveries to local businesses.

Like the grain trucks that deliver to Anderson's just a bit past the old CPS site?

 

[Charlot123]

Since school was out, what if the car was there belonging to a teacher/instructor from a school having a "clandestine" meeting with another male/female/housewife, etc., and would NEVER, EVER want to admit that was them parked there, no matter what they heard or saw. Their privacy just might mean more to them than admitting they were there.

Anything's possible. But, if this person were to think this composite resembles him, he's probably got a beard now, shaved his head and keeps a low profile. Just a theory MOO.

Yes, there might have been that. And given that such secrets are usually poorly kept...I thought of it, too.

However, such a meeting turns the witness into a philanderer. At worst, if the other person who can provide an alibi was a male and it is IN, maybe, he will have to move. This is not a punishable offense, and the country is huge.

The cloud of suspicion of involvement in the crime, however, turns the person into someone much worse. And if there is this cloud and it is not cleaned, it will eventually backfire in a much more serious way.

 

[JudgeJudi]

I'm confused. Why at all would the girls record their own conversation (stuff girls talk about)? Why would BG to have speed up, if the girls anyway were cornered at the end of bridge? - Daily new questions to myself .....

I don't know why they would record themselves, but then I don't know why people take selfies of themselves all the time either.

If you believe GH's videos, BG was some distance behind Abby when the image was taken. He used a particular tree and a small white spot on one of the bridge ties (I can't recall exactly what it was now) to place BG in the correct position when the image was taken. Likewise, he was able to work out exactly where Abby was by markings on the bridge ties. He originally thought Libby was on a platform when she took the shot but once he established precisely where both of them were, he established that Libby had to be just off the bridge to line both of them up with the image.

BG caught up with Abby before she left the bridge. He may have produced a gun at that point and so they followed his instructions to go down the hill.

 

[sunshineray]

I'm completely perplexed over the vehicle mentioned at the PC, but not during recent interview, and whether that vehicle is related to BG. It leaves so many questions in my mind. If it was BG's vehicle, did it belong to him, why was it parked there, how and when did he get back to it, etc. If it wasn't related to BG, then how did BG get to the trail that day? Parked elsewhere, walked? The vehicle being his, or not, could make a difference in how I see the details. Frustrating.

I'm thinking maybe they got the info about the car, somekind of cooboration they needed to what they already knew? As far as the vehicle itself, it's very possible it was actually another's car he used or another senario could be it is his car, he left it there after the murders, then came back maybe with someone driving there to search? There's only a finite number of explanations, one has to fit with the evidence somehow. Carter's emotions struck me as close to betrayal. The killer is in plain sight and it shocked them to discover that for sure. They went back to the beginning and realized they "were onto to something early on." AJMO

 

[Wells]

Here's my theory. Just going to throw it out there and hopefully I'm wrong. It's just a theory. All of this is my own opinion. Young white male between the ages of 25 and 30 who looked to be about 18 or 20 at the time of the crime. Became obsessed with one of the girls in some type of peripheral setting (observed her somewhere), although she was not aware of him. I don't mean romantically obsessed. I think he was obsessed with something he didn't like about her, through not fault of hers.

He found out where she was going to be that day, he had been planning something like this for a while, he hightailed it to the CPS parking lot, made his way to the trail and waited. I think initially someone saw his vehicle but it was common enough that it wasn't paid much attention to.

While I think it was planned, I think he also got very lucky. And while I think he is slightly above average in intelligence, I think he thinks he is a lot smarter than he is. I think, as LE said, "you made mistakes."

I don't think SA was involved or the motive. I don't think he anticipated a second girl being there but she was. I think he has done things in the past that have led him to believe he is already evil in his own mind and since he already believes himself to be evil, he may as well indulge/revel in it. Or he may see himself as some type of a religious avenger, going around all hellfire and brimstone.

He hightails it back to his vehicle and drives as fast as he possibly can to a place where he is seen and known by many people (had gotten rid of his jacket and hoodie and extra pants along the way) parks the car, gets out and mingles. LE obviously knows the time of death and they ultimately determine their POI can't be the guy because he (and/or his vehicle) was seen at XYZ place at 3:45 and well, there's just no way he could have gotten there that quickly. They look into him a little bit more, kick the tires, and someone close to him says, "There's no way that was his Common Vehicle XYZ parked at the CPS building. I actually own it, he drives it sometimes and the vehicle was here all day. It must have been a different Common Vehicle XYZ. They may even 100% believe it to be true, if they were busy, or slightly distracted doing something else. I think LE wants the actual vehicle or a more detailed description of the vehicle so they can tie BG to it.

Feel free to poke away at this. Again, MOO, IMO, AF, ETC.

 

[Charlot123]

After all of this time, the one theory I that keeps running through my head is that Abby and Libby first noticed BG while he was approaching from the East and heading west. He may have been slowly walking behind them which raised their red flags as they took pictures and hung out on the bridge. He may have been walking slow to stay behind them and they decided to call his bluff. They stopped and he continued on past them walking west. He then slowed down again further along the bridge, lingering. Noticing this, Libby started recording. He doubled back and was now walking east. Libby became aware that their movements were now directly influencing BGs behavior.

Why I find this important:
It may suggest that BG originally came from the East unless he crossed the bridge multiple times pacing. He took Abby and Libby back in the direction from where he came and BG may have made his final exit from that area never needing to cross the bridge again. I don't remember if the witness who contributed to the BG w/hat sketch was entering from the east or west. If they passed him on the east side of the bridge (witness entering and BG exiting), that might explain the shift in the investigation. Leaving from the west would have been a bold and risky move for BG . I see him leaving the area closer to the murder scene and possibly bushwhacking his way out of there. Less of a chance of running into and being seen by a random person up on the bridge or on the trail leading towards it.

If this is what happened, then I'm leaning towards this being premeditated. His original plans may not have included Abby and Libby but he most likely planned on something. Animal abuse? Destruction of some sort? His clothes on first glance suggest he didn't plan on getting too dirty - at least his choice in the color of his pants don't. Any sort of dirt or blood (even water would leave the pants half dark from being wet) would be easily spotted on those pants from quite a distance and to any potential witnesses he passed trying to exit the area. Since I think some sort of foul play was intended by BG, I fully believe that he had a second set of pants under those jeans. It would explain how the fabric moves (try it) and the bulky nature of the jacket makes me think the same about his top - he is wearing multiple layers with the intention that he can dispose of a layer or two if needed. If this is true, this would explain the discrepancy between how bulky he looks in the video compared to the recently released sketch.

It doesn't look like he left any clothing behind for searchers and LO to find so he possibly removed them, took them, destroyed them in a small burn pit or pile elsewhere. Had a small fire or remnants of a small fire been found by the shack? Probably not since burning jeans would leave behind the zipper and buttons. Unless he was super vigilant and took those, I feel like he took the clothes and disposed of them elsewhere. I am both surprised that LO didn't let the public know they should be looking for discarded clothing or to keep an eye out for someone they know missing pants or a jacket. I don't think this would have tipped BG off leading him to destroy them unless he was keeping them as a souvenir, which, somehow I doubt.

Sorry this got dark. All IMO of course.

Very logical and interesting.

 

[Boxer]

Yes. I think this is a really interesting thought. If "down the hill" comes right after the video, and then the girls are chatting normally to each other while under the control of BG, that makes no sense. That means the rest of the recording would either happen before the video, or that they were already walking along for a while, in other words, he did not confront them on the bridge. I am now confused as well. I can't see the theory that many have espoused here about the timing of the video and audio as working unless what LE says about the rest of the audio (normal girl talk) being wrong. Help me out here. MOO

MOO they were snap chatting, so usually that is talking and making observations - or making video recordings with the phone camera for instagram posts. Anything going on gets noted.

 

[HockeyMom330]

Yes. I think this is a really interesting thought. If "down the hill" comes right after the video, and then the girls are chatting normally to each other while under the control of BG, that makes no sense. That means the rest of the recording would either happen before the video, or that they were already walking along for a while, in other words, he did not confront them on the bridge. I am now confused as well. I can't see the theory that many have espoused here about the timing of the video and audio as working unless what LE says about the rest of the audio (normal girl talk) being wrong. Help me out here. MOO

I think its possible the girls were recording themsevles off and on right from the start of their hike. I have two teen daughters for reference, and it seems to be the trend amongst themselves and their friends. They'll even record themselves doing mundane things like brushing their teeth! IIRC Libby did not have her own phone that day but was borrowing one. So maybe she was just testing it out by recording their 'girl chatter'. She may have even deleted lots of her photos/recordings as it was not her phone.

I have always believed (like Ursamajr states above) that BG came from the SE end. This would be the only way he could know for sure that there were no hikers at that end of the bridge. I also believe that he passed A&L going the opposite direction on the bridge. This may have been a little unsettling for the girls, but I don't think he did anything inappropriate at that time. This could be when the girls mentioned 'the man' as part of their casual talk. I think BG then walked far enough towards the NW end of the bridge to determine that nobody else had gotten on the bridge at that end and to make the girls think he was just passing by. But then he turned to follow them. This could also be when the girls mentioned 'the man' as I'm sure their hinky meter would be going off. I think this is when Libby began recording him.

Up to this point I've assumed that the "guys...down the hill" audio comes immediately after the video clip shown, but now I'm not so certain. The 'guys' and 'down the hill' may not have even been said in the same sentence/time frame. "Guys" may have been his initial approach, while "down the hill" could have been said much further into the crime. I don't think LE has ever stipulated that the video and audio are in any type of sequence.

 

[sunshineray]

Yes. I think this is a really interesting thought. If "down the hill" comes right after the video, and then the girls are chatting normally to each other while under the control of BG, that makes no sense. That means the rest of the recording would either happen before the video, or that they were already walking along for a while, in other words, he did not confront them on the bridge. I am now confused as well. I can't see the theory that many have espoused here about the timing of the video and audio as working unless what LE says about the rest of the audio (normal girl talk) being wrong. Help me out here. MOO

I must have missed something. When did LE say the rest of the audio Libby took was just normal girl talk?

 

[puppyraiser]

If they are now realizing they were "onto something early on", then does that mean perhaps a few people cleared in the early days are once again under suspicion? They served warrants at properties but only a couple were highly visible in the media.

I wonder what made them change focus and go in an entirely different direction at some point during the investigation and then circle back to the sketch made very shortly after the murders? What, and who, steered the direction the wrong way? There are at least 3 LE agencies involved, plus I believe they added one other agency along the way (GBI?).

 

[ab01]

LE sometimes resort to methods not so straightforward when trying to get information they need.
I did look up the Dept. of Justice training site for LE, prosecutors,etc.
and there's numerous courses called "Boot Camp for Prosecutors"
so I find it very credible that this is what's going on.

They straight up said this is the person who we are confident murdered these girls.

They would not make that claim if they knew that was false

LE uses various deception tactics, but I don’t believe I’ve ever seen any ethical investigation go as far as to straight up accuse a possible witness of a potential poi of an actual murder when they knew it was false and they can’t at least tie them to the actual murder scene

The only time I’ve ever heard of such a thing is when said witness could be placed at the actual murder scene and they are pressuring said witness to talk and turn on the poi via in person interrogation.

Even then that witness is obviously a known individual to investigators and so is the suspect

And surely not done per sketch release to the public

Jmo

 

[Charlot123]

Here's my theory. Just going to throw it out there and hopefully I'm wrong. It's just a theory. All of this is my own opinion. Young white male between the ages of 25 and 30 who looked to be about 18 or 20 at the time of the crime. Became obsessed with one of the girls in some type of peripheral setting (observed her somewhere), although she was not aware of him. I don't mean romantically obsessed. I think he was obsessed with something he didn't like about her, through not fault of hers.

He found out where she was going to be that day, he had been planning something like this for a while, he hightailed it to the CPS parking lot, made his way to the trail and waited. I think initially someone saw his vehicle but it was common enough that it wasn't paid much attention to.

While I think it was planned, I think he also got very lucky. And while I think he is slightly above average in intelligence, I think he thinks he is a lot smarter than he is. I think, as LE said, "you made mistakes."

I don't think SA was involved or the motive. I don't think he anticipated a second girl being there but she was. I think he has done things in the past that have led him to believe he is already evil in his own mind and since he already believes himself to be evil, he may as well indulge/revel in it. Or he may see himself as some type of a religious avenger, going around all hellfire and brimstone.

He hightails it back to his vehicle and drives as fast as he possibly can to a place where he is seen and known by many people (had gotten rid of his jacket and hoodie and extra pants along the way) parks the car, gets out and mingles. LE obviously knows the time of death and they ultimately determine their POI can't be the guy because he (and/or his vehicle) was seen at XYZ place at 3:45 and well, there's just no way he could have gotten there that quickly. They look into him a little bit more, kick the tires, and someone close to him says, "There's no way that was his Common Vehicle XYZ parked at the CPS building. I actually own it, he drives it sometimes and the vehicle was here all day. It must have been a different Common Vehicle XYZ. They may even 100% believe it to be true, if they were busy doing or slightly distracted something else. I think LE wants the actual vehicle or a more detailed description of the vehicle so they can tie BG to it.

Feel free to poke away at this. Again, MOO, IMO, AF, ETC.

My feeling is, we won’t understand the motive because most of such killers have way more psychopathology than meets an eye and develop symptoms years before murders. But they just fly under all radars. Even if we knew “his” motive, it won’t make sense to us. So your guess might have been as good as mine. We can try to fathom his emotional state (e.g., “rage”), but not the motive.

Everything else, about the case, what you posted, makes sense.