Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #103

[mtnlites]

These parents are acutely aware that a double murderer is on the loose in their town.

They were warned, as they were aware of the murders. Law enforcement did not keep the fact that Libby and Abby were killed, a secret.

I don’t know what murder cases you’ve been following, but I have heard this exact same language in many recent cases.

Mollie Tibbetts, Vanessa Marcotte, Jayme Closs, etc.

This happens all the time..

Hunt continues for missing western Wis. girl after parents found dead

Thirteen-year-old Jayme Closs remains "missing and endangered," but there's no danger to the community as the search continues for her and for clues to the killing of her parents, Barron County Sheriff Chris Fitzgerald said Tuesday.

And at that time LE had no idea who took JC or if she were dead or alive.

 

[Charlot123]

My opinion only:

If LE were to choose three or four things to hold quiet and to themselves and release everything else that they know to this point; evidence, COD, interviews with redacted names, etc...this case would be solved in a couple months, tops.
I am to the point where I think the information they are NOT releasing is keeping someone from realizing they have crucial information.
I do not believe they have usable DNA. LE has talked all around the subject but have never said they had DNA usable against the killer, only that they had DNA. The fact that LE answers questions about Parabon doesn’t mean they are going to use it or are able to use it. They just want the killer to worry whether or not they have his DNA.
I truly do not understand why, if BG is local or a former local or from the area or frequents there, why why why has no one recognized him?
Not just his immediate family or friends that might hesitate to turn him in, but others like neighbors, co-workers, former teachers, grocery clerks, Walmart greeters....Somebody! If this happened in my much larger small town half the town would have recognized him and called it in while the other half was on hold waiting to do the same. Not blaming the town people, I just don’t understand it. Makes me question the idea that the killer is local.
I still believe that the key to solving the case is how did he get away. We understand that...we are halfway to finding him. I thought the info on the vehicle at the last PC was finally a step in that direction. Not really sure what to think of that at this point.
I’ve said this before...LE keeps begging for the public’s help, but until they give us some information, this case will not move forward.

100% agree. But - I think the LE probably has some DNA. (That is workable only to a degree, could have been placed there is intentionally, fell from a wig, or who knows what.)

I wonder if people are not coming forward because they were doing/selling drugs under that bridge, and don’t trust the police? Or, the couple under the bridge. They might be afraid that coming forward would ruin two marriages, for example...

So, the LE has to promise not to prosecute people helping the case, but uninvolved in murders, even if these people themselves were nearby that day because of involvement in not-so-good activity.

 

[Charlot123]

I bet you wouldn’t agree to get microchipped either, so Big Brother could track your every move and then Vanish you if you weren’t obedient!

Me either, even if it would make crime solving easier.

Ok I would not do it necessarily for crime. But DNA.land that deals with breast cancer...I gave them our DNAs. What if donating our genetic codes means, better drugs for us and our kids?

 

[cluciano63]

100% agree. But - I think the LE probably has some DNA. (That is workable only to a degree, could have been placed there is intentionally, fell from a wig, or who knows what.)

I wonder if people are not coming forward because they were doing/selling drugs under that bridge, and don’t trust the police? Or, the couple under the bridge. They might be afraid that coming forward would ruin two marriages, for example...

So, the LE has to promise not to prosecute people helping the case, but uninvolved in murders, even if these people themselves were nearby that day because of involvement in not-so-good activity.

Jmo the couple under the bridge is a rumor, I think.

To me, DNA and sexual assault stand out as two topics LE has refused to speak clearly about...which in my brain, links them. Could be wrong but this crime fits sexual assault as a motive in every way to me. Jmo

 

[MassGuy]

Jmo the couple under the bridge is a rumor, I think.

To me, DNA and sexual assault stand out as two topics LE has refused to speak clearly about...which in my brain, links them. Could be wrong but this crime fits sexual assault as a motive in every way to me. Jmo

They aren’t necessarily linked, although I do believe SA to be the motive.

Law enforcement saying they have DNA, isn’t necessarily an indication that the DNA came from a sexual act.

Skin under the fingernails is also a source, in the event that one of the girls scratched him.

He could have also cut himself on a knife.

So they could say “we have DNA,” and it wouldn’t serve as confirmation of SA.

 

[Cutiekitty]

I think the triangulation is to get the position of the phone. You need a minimum of two towers and a phone to then get an approx phone position. LE probably already got the tower dumps from that day and time period (e.g 2-3 pm ) which would have the IMEI numbers of the phones that hit the towers at that time. I think they would have to do this within weeks as I don't know how long the companies keep that data. If the perp didn't have a phone or had a burner phone or put it in a foil packet then it would be a waste of time. MOO.

Just googled triangulation and it looks like they have to have 2-3 towers and the area of overlap is the approximate location. Almost all of the articles I looked at said it’s accurate within 3/4 of a square mile. Pretty cool.

 

[mtnlites]

They aren’t necessarily linked, although I do believe SA to be the motive.

Law enforcement saying they have DNA, isn’t necessarily an indication that the DNA came from a sexual act.

Skin under the fingernails is also a source, in the event that one of the girls scratched him.

He could have also cut himself on a knife.

So they could say “we have DNA,” and it wouldn’t serve as confirmation of SA.

One could've pulled hair out at the root. Saliva could be present, also. There's even a chance that the DNA wasn't on the girls at all, but on something nearby-something that BG dropped or accidentally left behind. That would certainly make things complicated because LE would need to be certain that the DNA belonged to BG and not someone else.

 

[Jethro4WS]

The population of Delphi is only about 3000. So it would be unlikely it requires a high volume and close placement of cell towers as would, say a urban environment consisting of not only homes and businesses but high density multi family housing including highrise apartment buildings and condos concentrated in a much smaller area.

Early on these threads a poster here located cell tower coverage for Delphi and iirc it was served by only two towers. That would suggest at best, cell tower data would pinpoint cellphone locations to be within the town and immediate surrounding areas including the trail. At the time iirc this was also the possible explanation for Libby’s grandfather’s comment regarding her cellphone “pinging around town”.

Go to this site. In the Address Lookup put in Delphi, Indiana. When the map comes up it will show two towers. Zoom out.
United States Cell Tower Map - SCADACore

There are towers in Flora and Americus each about 7 miles or so from the bridge area. That puts 4 towers within range of any phone. With 4 towers obtaining a triangulated position (the phone does this on its own) is not a problem.

 

[bradfordsleuth]

I feel very strongly that one key to help blowing this case open is the witness who contributed to sketch #2.

I am wondering if they have done a cognitive interview to get him/her to try to recall as much as possible about what he/she saw that day.

Now, of course not being privy to any inside details about the circumstances of their interaction (if any) I don't know if a cognitive interview would even help in this case.

If the witness saw something that they felt needed to be reported at the time, then has this person been brought back in to further discuss the tip that he/she provided just a few days after the murders?

Is he/she still even alive?

I have so many questions!

They seem so sure that 1 tip will be the key to arresting this guy and that tip seems to point to finding the driver of the car.

They must have pulled camera/video footage in the days before the murders to see who parked there occasionally leading up to the 13th!

I am not savvy with google earth (I have never used it!) but I am going to attempt to check from Jan 1, 2017 until Feb 13th to see if I can view cars parked there. He would have scouted out the area when the foilage was in a similar state...so unless he tried planning this crime in early 2016...that is my starting point.

If my hunch I posted back earlier in this thread is right, then this guy did several 'practice runs' to scout his crime site before he committed the crimes on Feb 13, 2017 and has parked there before.

Sorry...I am long-winded once again.

I just want to help by throwing out ideas....

JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

Go to this site. In the Address Lookup put in Delphi, Indiana. When the map comes up it will show two towers. Zoom out.
United States Cell Tower Map - SCADACore

There are towers in Flora and Americus each about 7 miles or so from the bridge area. That puts 4 towers within range of any phone. With 4 towers obtaining a triangulated position (the phone does this on its own) is not a problem.

Sorry, I’m missing your point. What purpose would it serve to establish a cellphone user was in Delphi if he also lived and worked there?

 

[TL4S]

They aren’t necessarily linked, although I do believe SA to be the motive.

Law enforcement saying they have DNA, isn’t necessarily an indication that the DNA came from a sexual act.

Skin under the fingernails is also a source, in the event that one of the girls scratched him.

He could have also cut himself on a knife.

So they could say “we have DNA,” and it wouldn’t serve as confirmation of SA.

This might be a really stupid idea, but is it possible the DNA they claimed to have ended up not being human DNA? Wouldn't a coyote or deer sniffing one of the bodies leave DNA? Or what if BG had a dog? Dog or cat DNA could be matched to a perp's pet, right?

 

[MDATCA]

Been going over early articles and I just can't fathom something.

At midnight on Feb 13th this was said,

"Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby say there is no reason to suspect foul play or to believe the girls are in immediate danger."

You have two young girls missing for 6 1/2 hours while hiking in a rural and in some places treacherous terrain, they're not answering phone then phone goes dead, it's getting colder, how in the heck can you make that statement? And then call off the search for darkness!? Did they really think they were off somewhere joyriding or had walked to a friend's house and we're having a good time at 12 midnight and not bothering to tell their parents where they were, 13 and 14 years old girls who's whole history pointed to the opposite being true?

Sorry for rehashing this, just seems so wrong to me. God Bless Libby, Abby and their families </3

It would not have made a difference in the outcome except for the possible risk of an injury to a searcher.

 

[MCDRAW]

Dear @sunshineray,

As a Mom, I understand completely what you mean.

My first thought was that they may have fallen somewhere off the bridge or around the bridge and were injured. That's the main reason I would have kept searching and calling. Time makes all the difference in the world for someone who is seriously injured.

There were so many searchers in addition to the police and no one answered when they called out. It was dark and the chances of anyone out there getting hurt themselves increased.

Also, they didn't know if the girls went somewhere else. It happens.

As @MassGuy says, "Hindsight is 20/20" and this is so true!

This was a very safe area. And we have been told for years, take a buddy. We are now seeing, no one is safe. It is so easy to question L.E. and how they do their jobs. I agree with your hindsight is 20/20.

 

[EarthtoMel]

Me too. I replied to a post and was talking about my car nav and I said if he was local he wouldn’t need navigation. You got me thinking though...What if he had Onstar or a similar service? Do they track all the time? Could LE request all users in a location at a certain time and date. I’m positive this has come up in previous threads, but I’m throwing it out here now anyway. I’m still working through old posts while keeping up with new ones.

I don't know if this was available 2 years ago, but I have a tracking device in my car that tracks my speed, location, how fast I brake and accelerate, etc for car insurance. The better I drive, the better rates I get on my insurance. I wonder if they could check with insurance companies....but I guess that would involve a LOT of legal issues.

 

[Cutiekitty]

Sorry, I’m missing your point. What purpose would it serve to establish a cellphone user was in Delphi if he also lived and worked there?

If he lives or works there it could show where he was in Delphi that day. I don’t think it’s going to be the info that cracks the case, but the presence or absence of cellular data could help it. What if a spouse or parent was trying to get ahold of him, but his phone was turned off (hope not) during the crime and that is unusual? If he works there maybe didn’t show up and his phone was hitting towers in Delphi? I feel like LE uncovered an issue with a previous alibi and maybe the phone stuff supports that somehow.

 

[TL4S]

If he lives or works there it could show where he was in Delphi that day. I don’t think it’s going to be the info that cracks the case, but the presence or absence of cellular data could help it. What if a spouse or parent was trying to get ahold of him, but his phone was turned off (hope not) during the crime and that is unusual? If he works there maybe didn’t show up and his phone was hitting towers in Delphi? I feel like LE uncovered an issue with a previous alibi and maybe the phone stuff supports that somehow.

IMO, phone data could be helpful for the case, but more likely data collected after BG's apprehension, rather than before. JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

If he lives or works there it could show where he was in Delphi that day. I don’t think it’s going to be the info that cracks the case, but the presence or absence of cellular data could help it. What if a spouse or parent was trying to get ahold of him, but his phone was turned off (hope not) during the crime and that is unusual? If he works there maybe didn’t show up and his phone was hitting towers in Delphi? I feel like LE uncovered an issue with a previous alibi and maybe the phone stuff supports that somehow.

If LE was able to trace a cellphone to the trail, they’d also have enough information to also know who was the service provider. They’d be able to obtain a name and address and a treasure trove of historical information including other calls to friends, relatives, employer etc.

Had they been able to successfully do so, I don’t think they still be holding PCs asking for that “one tip”, starting in a new direction more than two years later.

 

[Jethro4WS]

So, I have only been involved here for a year. How do the long timers feel about catching this killer? Hopeful or not?​

I happen to think that BG has killed before. So, the clues to who BG is lie in prior kills going back in time - where it is likely more mistakes were made. The victims, locations, how the victims were killed, and other circumstances of those prior kills will inform more about BG. The big question is if law enforcement can find the unsolved cases BG is responsible for among all the seemingly unrelated unsolved cases out there. Since I believe BG is a serial killer with prior kills I also believe BG has killed at least once since the murders of Abby & Libby.

 

[Cutiekitty]

I don't know if this was available 2 years ago, but I have a tracking device in my car that tracks my speed, location, how fast I brake and accelerate, etc for car insurance. The better I drive, the better rates I get on my insurance. I wonder if they could check with insurance companies....but I guess that would involve a LOT of legal issues.

I bet they could.

There are so many ways to track people even if you don’t have a specific person to track. You’ve got phones, vehicle registration, your insurance tracking device, and location data from various sources. The answer is out there somewhere IMO.

The amount of info LE would have to deal with from all these sources takes time to review and process which is why I think this is taking as long as it is. Tower dump info is going to be a lot if you are looking at a 5 hour period. If they don’t have a tag and just a vehicle description that’s a lot of tracking down cars. If somehow they can get gps info that’s got to be a lot too. Add the 42,000 tips sent in and all of the follow up with those. Plus, they were working other cases before, during and after this case. They’ve got their hands full and even with assistance from other agencies it’s a lot of info to deal with.

They very well could have a pretty good POI from all of their work, but someone is covering for them. All JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

IMO, phone data could be helpful for the case, but more likely data collected after BG's apprehension, rather than before. JMO

I agree. Had sketch one travelled from another state that sort of evidence would even be better. The problem is cellphone tracking is no longer a secret and it’s a pretty dumb murderer who hasn’t figured that out aside from drug runners and child *advertiser censored* creeps who require access to technology at all times in order to commit their crimes.

I’m also not certain that Delphi’s cellphone towers were the same in 2017 as they are today because I recall something about the LE command center had to put up a temporary dish to handle the phone calls coming in. Older cell towers did not have the same capability as they do now in the same way that technology is continually improving.